Eschatology and Islam

[arthra]

Apple Pie,

I was interested in your last note:

"In fact, one book of the Holy Bible was used by the authors of the Koran as a blueprint for the entire Koran. That book is the Biblical Book of Revelation. I have been researching the link between the Book of Revelation and the Koran for the past year. I have compiled evidence beyond any reasonable doubt that the Koranic concepts of Heaven, Hell, & Eschatology are derived almost entirely from this one single book."

And wondered if you could either provide a few examples of what you mean or supply a reference or two...

In friendship,

- Art

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Art,

Thanks for your inquiry.

Yes, I can post a couple of examples for you.

It appears that the Character length restriction on this forum will result in extending this over a few posts.

Here is the first part...


144,000 Sealed, Koran: (2:243, 5:12, 17:104, 33:21-22, 39:73, 74:1-5, 78:18, 110:1-2)

144,000 Sealed, Book of Revelation: (7:4-17, 14:1-5, 19:1)




144,000 Sealed, Koran

Do you not see/understand to those who got out from their homes/countries/tribes/places, and they are thousands, fearing/cautioning the death, so Allah said to them: "Die." Then He revived them. That Allah (is owner) of grace/favour/blessing on the people, and but most of the people do not thank/be grateful. (2:243)

And Allah had taken Israel's sons' and daughters' promise/covenant, and We sent from them twelve heads/chiefs/representatives, and Allah said: "I am with you, if you kept up the prayers, and you gave the charity/purification, and you believed with My messengers and you supported/aided them, and you lent/advanced Allah a good loan/advance, I will substitute from you your sins/crimes and I will enter you treed gardens the rivers flow from beneath it, so who disbelieved after that, from you, so (he) had misguided the way's/path's straightness." (5:12)

And We said from after him to Israel's sons and daughters: "Reside/inhabit the land/Planet Earth, so if the ends' (other life's) promise came, We came with you (in) mixed crowds/huge gatherings." (17:104)

(It) had been for you in Allah's messenger a good example/model to who was hoping/expecting Allah, and the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and remembered/mentioned Allah much. And when the believers saw/understood the groups/parties, they said: "That (is) what Allah promised us and His messenger, and Allah was/is truthful and His messenger." And (it) did not increase them except belief and submission/surrender. (33:21-22)

And those who feared and obeyed their Lord are driven to the Paradise (in) groups/companies until if they came to it, and its doors opened and its safe keepers said to them: "Peace/security/greeting on (to) you, you became good/beautiful/pure, so enter it immortally/eternally." (39:73)

You, you the wrapped/covered for warmth in a robe. Stand, so warn/give notice. And your Lord, so magnify/exalt/revere. And your clothes/garments, so purify/clean. And the paganism/idol worship/sin, so abandon. (74:1-5)

A day/time the horn/bugle/instrument be blown in, so you come (in) groups/crowds. (78:18)

When/if Allah's victory/aid came, and the opening/judgment. And you saw the people entering in Allah's religion (in) groups/crowds. (110:1-2)



Look at the titles of these Suras:

SURA 33 THE GROUPS/PARTIES

SURA 39 THE GROUPS/COMPANIES

SURA 59 THE GATHERING

SURA 62 THE FRIDAY/GATHERING

[Apple Pie]

144,000 Sealed, Book of Revelation

And I heard the number of those having been sealed: one hundred forty four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand having been sealed. (Rev 7:4-8)

After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches. And they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb. And all the angels and of the elders and of the four living creatures stood around the throne. And they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God, saying, Amen. Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength to our God forever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These, the ones having been clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are those coming out of the great tribulation; and they washed their robes and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb. Because of this they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. And He sitting on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. And they will not hunger still, nor will they thirst still, nor at all shall fall on them the sun, nor any kind of heat. Because the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them, and will lead them on living springs of waters; and God will wipe off every tear from their eyes. (Rev 7:4-17)

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on MountZion! And with Him were a hundred and forty four thousands, with the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound out of Heaven, as a sound of many waters, and as a sound of great thunder. Also I heard a sound of harpers harping on their harps. And they sing as a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one was able to learn the song except the hundred and forty four thousands, those having been redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones following the Lamb wherever He may go. These were redeemed from among men as a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb. And no guile was found in their mouth, for they are without blemish before the throne of God. (Rev 14:1-5)

[Apple Pie]

And after these things, I heard a great voice of a large multitude in Heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the honor and the power of the Lord our God! (Rev 19:1)



Summary:
1) How many Tribes are sealed?...Revelation, Twelve…Koran, Twelve
2) Where do the Tribes come from?...Revelation, sons of Israel…Koran, sons of Israel
3) Who is with the Tribes?...Revelation, Jesus…Koran, Allah
4) What is their number?...Revelation, 144,000(s)…Koran, thousands
5) Where are they?...Revelation, Heaven…Koran, Paradise
6) Who are they?...Revelation, people clothed in robes…Koran, people clothes in robes
7) Robed people standing before God?....Revelation, yes…Koran, yes (Koran confirms that Jesus is God)
8) Robed people giving glory to God?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes (Koran again confirms that Jesus is God)
9) Robes are whitened/purified?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes(Whitened/purified in the Blood of Jesus…Koran confirms crucifixion)
10) Allah has aligned his “deity” with that of Jesus
11) The Koran is stating that Jesus is God

[Apple Pie]

1,000 year reign, Koran

And you will find them the people most holding stingily and desiring strongly on (a) life/existence and from those who shared/made partners with Allah, any of them wishes/loves if he be granted long life (a) thousand years, and it is not with moving/hurriedly pushing him from the torture, that he be granted long life, and Allah (is) seeing/understanding with what they make/do/work. Say: "Who was an enemy to Gabriel, so that he descended it on your heart/mind with Allah's permission, confirming to what (is) between his hands, and (a) guidance and a good news to the believers." Who was an enemy to Allah, and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, so then Allah (is) an enemy to the disbelievers. (2:96-98)

1,000 year reign, Book of Revelation

And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war, but they did not have strength, nor yet was place found for them in Heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because the accuser of our brothers is thrown down, the one accusing them before our God day and night. (Rev 12:7-10)And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. And whenever the thousand years are ended, Satan will be set loose out of his prison, (Rev 20:2-7)


Summary:

1) Will the people live a long time?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes
2) Who will be the ones that live a long time?...Revelation, Believers…Koran, Believers
3) How long will this time be?...Revelation, 1,000 years…Koran, 1,000 years
4) Who will they be with during this time?...Revelation, Jesus…Koran, Allah
5) Will this 1,000 year reign be apart from something?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes
6) Apart from the enemy of Michael and his angels?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes
7) Apart from whom?...Revelation, Devil…Koran, enemy of Allah
8) Allah has aligned his “deity” with that of Jesus
9) The Koran is stating that Jesus is God

[Apple Pie]

Here's one more for the road...


Satan Bound for 1,000 years, Koran: (7:11-18, 38:75-85, 78:20-25)

Satan Bound for 1,000 years, Book of Revelation: (20:2-10)

Satan Bound for 1,000 years, Koran

And We had created you, then We pictured/formed you, then We said to the angels: "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Satan, was not from the prostrating. He (Allah) said: "What prevented/stopped/forbid you, that you not prostrate when/if I ordered/commanded you?" He (the devil) said: "I am better than him, You created me from fire, and You created him from mud/clay." He (Allah) said: "So drop/reduce/decline from it, so (it) was not to be for you that you be arrogant in it, so get out/emerge, that you are from the subservient/humiliated/lowly." He (the devil) said: "Give me time/delay me to a day they be sent/resurrected/revived." He (Allah) said: "That you are from the given time/delayed." He (the devil) said: "So with what you misguided/enticed me, I will sit/remain for them (in) Your straight/direct road/way." "Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from/of/on their rights, and from/of/on their lefts, and You (will) not find most of them thankful/grateful." He (Allah) said: "Get out/emerge from it expelled/degraded, expelled/driven away, whom followed you from them, I will fill Hell from you all/all together." (7:11-18)

He said: "You Satan, what prevented/prohibited you that you prostrate to what I created with My hands, did you become arrogant, or you were from the high and mighty?" He said: "I am better than him, You created me from fire and You created him from mud/clay." He said: "So get out/emerge from it, so that you are cursed/expelled." "And that on you (is) My curse/torture/expulsion to the Judgment Day/Resurrection Day." He said: "My Lord so give me time/delay me to a day/time they be sent/resurrected/revived." He said: "So that you are from the given time/delayed." "To day/time (of) the time, the known." He said: "So with Your glory/might, I will misguide/lure them all/all together." "Except Your worshippers/slaves from them, the faithful/devoted. He said: "So the truth and the truth I say:" "I will fill Hell from you and from who followed you from them all/all together." (38:75-85)

And the mountains were made to move, so it was/became a mirage. That truly Hell was/is an observatory/ambuscade. For the tyrants a return. Remaining/waiting in it long periods of time/centuries. They do not taste/experience in it cold/cool and nor a drink. Except hot water/sweat and decayed/rotten. (78:20-25)

[Apple Pie]

Satan Bound for 1,000 years, Book of Revelation


And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. And whenever the thousand years are ended, Satan will be set loose out of his prison, and he will go to mislead the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them in war, whose number is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the land and encircled the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire from God came down out of Heaven and burned them down. And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages. (Rev 20:2-10)


Summary:

1) Who rebelled?...Revelation, Satan…Koran, Satan
2) What was Satan’s punishment for rebelling?...Revelation, bound and sealed in the abyss…Koran, time/delayed
3) How long will this last?...Revelation, 1,000 years…Koran, centuries, the known time
4) What will indicate when this time period is over?...Revelation, when the rest of the dead live again…Koran, the day when they are revived
5) What is this period called?...Revelation, First Resurrection…Koran, Resurrection
6) What will happen when the time period is up?...Revelation, Satan will be set loose a short time…Koran, Satan will come to them
7) What will Satan do at that time?...Revelation, mislead the nations of the earth…Koran, misguide/lure them all together
8) Do others then follow Satan’s deception?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes
9) Are there some that are not deceived?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes
10) Who are they?...Revelation, the witnesses to Jesus, the Word of God…Koran, the faithful worshipers
11) What is the fate of Satan and all of those that he leads astray?...Revelation, Hell, lake of fire and brimstone…Koran, Hell

[arthra]

Well Apple pie....

Thanks for your repsonse!


I. Since I asked if you could supply a few examples of your work, could you suggest what are the most salient passages for you?


II. Also when you wrote earlier:

"In fact, one book of the Holy Bible was used by the authors of the Koran as a blueprint for the entire Koran."

How do you suppose this occurred?


III. Lastly, I noted more than once in your material the following:

"The Koran is stating that Jesus is God"

Could you explain in a FEW words how you believe this is possible?


In friendship,

- Art

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Art,


Thanks for your comments.

It is too bad that this forum has such a space limit consideration to its posts. The majority of my material spans over a much greater depth.

You mentioned this:

”I. Since I asked if you could supply a few examples of your work, could you suggest what are the most salient passages for you?”

The most prominent portions of my work would be the discovery that the Koran proclaims Jesus’ Crucifixion(and the subsequent re-birth of man through Him) loud and clear in Sura 86…




”II. Also when you wrote earlier:

"In fact, one book of the Holy Bible was used by the authors of the Koran as a blueprint for the entire Koran."

How do you suppose this occurred?”


I would suspect oral transmission to have occurred by the Koranic authors. If a copy of Revelation was in their hands cannot readily be proven. What can be proven is the undeniable parallels that exist between these two books (material found no where else in the Holy Bible).

I think the Koranic authors took to heart the warning given in the Final Biblical book (Book of Revelation) when they composed their own version of it…




”III. Lastly, I noted more than once in your material the following:

"The Koran is stating that Jesus is God"

Could you explain in a FEW words how you believe this is possible?”


Well, the conclusion that I have come to is that the Koran is merely a corrupted version of the Holy Bible. The Koran, albeit corrupted, is an extra-Biblical confirmation to the authority of it’s’ source.

>90% of the Koran is borrowed Biblical content. The Koran acknowledges that Jesus is the Messiah, that He was crucified, that He was resurrected, that men are “reborn” through Him, that Jesus is the Word of God, that Jesus is the Spirit of God, and that Jesus Biblical deity also happens to coincide with that of Allah.

The Koran, perhaps unwittingly, calls for Jesus to be God on the basis of the copious amounts of borrowed (and perhaps unfiltered) material that was blended together by its authors in an attempt to produce a new Holy Book for Islamic consumption.

Thanks…

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Apple Pie

>90% of the Koran is borrowed Biblical content. The Koran acknowledges that Jesus is the Messiah, that He was crucified, that He was resurrected, that men are “reborn” through Him, that Jesus is the Word of God, that Jesus is the Spirit of God, and that Jesus Biblical deity also happens to coincide with that of Allah.

The Koran, perhaps unwittingly, calls for Jesus to be God on the basis of the copious amounts of borrowed (and perhaps unfiltered) material that was blended together by its authors in an attempt to produce a new Holy Book for Islamic consumption.

Thanks…

Hi Apple Pie, and welcome to CR.

I have to say that although some of your ideas are certainly interesting, some of your conclusions do seem quite erroneous. For example, Islam certainly does not recognise "the Resurrection" and maintains that Jesus did not die on the Cross - thus refuteing the pivotal issue of Christian Theology.

Also note that by my understanding, Islam regards Jesus very much as like an Old Testament Prophet (of which Muhammad is apparently the final of the line). Thus Jesus could be stated to speaking the "words of God", but he certainly not as an embodied "Word of God" as per Christology.

A very great point of note is apparently made in Islam that although Jesus is a person to be greatly respected by Muslims, he is certainly not to be seen as the embodiment of God on Earth as per the mainstream Christian view. The distinction is one of paramount difference between the two religions.

But I'll leave it to allow our Muslim members address any particular points of your ideas, as they feel fit.

[arthra]

Thanks very much Applepie for summarizing your points for me and I am be returning later to them, but for now would only have the following:


Apple pie wrote:

”II. Also when you wrote earlier:

"In fact, one book of the Holy Bible was used by the authors of the
Koran as a blueprint for the entire Koran."

How do you suppose this occurred?”


I would suspect oral transmission to have occurred by the Koranic
authors. If a copy of Revelation was in their hands cannot readily be
proven. What can be proven is the undeniable parallels that exist between
these two books (material found no where else in the Holy Bible).

I think the Koranic authors took to heart the warning given in the
Final Biblical book (Book of Revelation) when they composed their own
version of it…

My reply:

My understanding has been that it would be unlikely the Arabs in the time of Muhammad would have even had a copy of Book of Revelation in Arabic. See the following:

"Although there are hints in the records of Arabic versions (of the New Testament) made before the Islamic conquests, the earliest manuscripts seem to date from the ninth century. The oldest dated manuscript of the version (Sinai arab. 151) comes from 867 C.E. The translations probably are not more than a century or two older."

Source:

http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/Versions.html



Apple pie responded to my earlier post:

”III. Lastly, I noted more than once in your material the following:

"The Koran is stating that Jesus is God"

Could you explain in a FEW words how you believe this is possible?”


Well, the conclusion that I have come to is that the Koran is merely a
corrupted version of the Holy Bible. The Koran, albeit corrupted, is
an extra-Biblical confirmation to the authority of it’s’ source.

>90% of the Koran is borrowed Biblical content. The Koran acknowledges
that Jesus is the Messiah, that He was crucified, that He was
resurrected, that men are “reborn” through Him, that Jesus is the Word of God,
that Jesus is the Spirit of God, and that Jesus Biblical deity also
happens to coincide with that of Allah.

The Koran, perhaps unwittingly, calls for Jesus to be God on the basis
of the copious amounts of borrowed (and perhaps unfiltered) material
that was blended together by its authors in an attempt to produce a new
Holy Book for Islamic consumption.

My comment:

I was also curious about your references to the "authors" of the Qur'an which you mention above and your statement "the Koranic authors took to heart the warning given in the
Final Biblical book (Book of Revelation) when they composed their own
version of it…"

Who would these "authors" be?

In friendship,

- Art

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Brian,



Thanks for your warm welcome and your reply.





You mentioned this:


”I have to say that although some of your ideas are certainly interesting, some of your conclusions do seem quite erroneous. For example, Islam certainly does not recognise "the Resurrection" and maintains that Jesus did not die on the Cross - thus refuteing the pivotal issue of Christian Theology.”



Well, I would have to disagree.



Islam, like all world faiths, has different sects within its “Religion”.



These sects vary wildly from one another.



What matters is what their Holy Book clearly states. How they interpret what is says is what they will follow.



As far as the resurrection, this theme totally and completely saturates the entire Koran, up to and including the ayahs in which Jesus proclaims His own resurrection.



As far as Jesus being crucified, as I mentioned in my previous post, Sura 86 clarifies any ambiguity arising from ayah 4:157…




”Also note that by my understanding, Islam regards Jesus very much as like an Old Testament Prophet (of which Muhammad is apparently the final of the line). Thus Jesus could be stated to speaking the "words of God", but he certainly not as an embodied "Word of God" as per Christology.”



My Thesis would say otherwise.



The authors of the Koran, in their attempt to replicate a Holy Book for themselves, attempted to reduce Jesus to no more than a prophet, while at the same time re-applying His Biblical deity to that of their newly created god.



A full and persnickety reading of the Koran will show what really occurred.



It is most unfortunate that probably 99% of the populous has not bothered to do this.






”A very great point of note is apparently made in Islam that although Jesus is a person to be greatly respected by Muslims, he is certainly not to be seen as the embodiment of God on Earth as per the mainstream Christian view. The distinction is one of paramount difference between the two religions.”



Again, anyone who takes the time to study the Koran in depth will not walk away with that conclusion at all…





Thanks for your good thoughts…

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Art…



Thanks for your comments.



It has never been of interest to me to attempt to identify if a copy of the Book of Revelation had made its way into the hands of Muhammad & co.



The only “history” that I have been concerned with is that which is contained within the pages of the two Holy Books that I am comparing (i.e. The Holy Bible, and the Koran).



What matters most, when comparing two Holy Books such as these, is the “history” contained within them.



How they compliment each other is much more revealing than how they don’t…









“I was also curious about your references to the "authors" of the Qur'an which you mention above and your statement "the Koranic authors took to heart the warning given in the Final Biblical book (Book of Revelation) when they composed their own
version of it…"

Who would these "authors" be?”





The “authors” of the Koran are the people who pieced together the Koran.



Contrary to popular Muslim myth, there are no extant 1400 year old Korans anywhere in the entire world. In fact, there are only fragments that date 100 years after the “supposed” event took place.



So…based upon extant evidence at hand, it would be pure speculation to insist that the “original” Koran even exists…

[arthra]

Apple Pie wrote:

It has never been of interest to me to attempt to identify if a copy of the Book of Revelation had made its way into the hands of Muhammad & co.
The only “history” that I have been concerned with is that which is contained within the pages of the two Holy Books that I am comparing (i.e. The Holy Bible, and the Koran).

What matters most, when comparing two Holy Books such as these, is the “history” contained within them.

How they compliment each other is much more revealing than how they don’t…

Comment:

And yet Apple Pie, a knowledge of history and manuscripts would seem valuable wouldn't you agree?

Apple pie wrote:

The “authors” of the Koran are the people who pieced together the Koran.

Contrary to popular Muslim myth, there are no extant 1400 year old Korans anywhere in the entire world. In fact, there are only fragments that date 100 years after the “supposed” event took place.

Comment:

An "extant 1400 year old Koran" would have to be from the year 603-4 CE and from history we know that Muhammad was born around the year 571 CE so a 1400 year old Koran to which you are referring would have to be from before the Hijra or 622 CE and the ministry of Prophet Muhammad began around the years 610 to 613 CE so i think something is wrong with your assumption here! You are assuming that Moslems have a "popular myth" that there are Korans that are 1400 years old without being aware that would place such "manuscripts" well before the Revelation itself.

There is a site where a manuscript of the Qur'an has been dated from the year 107 AH or 725 CE and it is from the Egyptian National Library.

See the following:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...Mss/enl2a.html

One of the properties of the Qur'an to this day is that it is consantly recited and this process of recitation has been occurring since the revelation itself began.... Note the word "Iqra" found in 96:1; 96:3 and 17:14 means "recite" and "Proclaim!" and Moslems have been recitng and procaliming ever since.

What this means is that there was constant recitation of the Revelation from the beginning ...every Friday service would be a recitation...every Ramadan a complete recitataion of what had been revealed up to that point. The Qur'an was a work in progress over the entire ministry of Prophet Muhammad.

Secretaries also took down what was revealed and some of these writings were on Palm leaves and bones.

Also many of the Companions of the Prophet had memorized the entire Qur'an before it was finally collated and set down to writing.

- Art

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Apple Pie

The only “history” that I have been concerned with is that which is contained within the pages of the two Holy Books that I am comparing (i.e. The Holy Bible, and the Koran).

What matters most, when comparing two Holy Books such as these, is the “history” contained within them.

That could be an unfortunately narrow view and will surely flaw your view. You should really take a look at the application of numerology in the Bible - there were often very specific reasons for the use of certain numbers.