Eschatology and Islam - Page 3

Apple Pie · 02-24-2004, 01:40 AM

Greetings Art…

I appreciate your comments.

“And yet Apple Pie, a knowledge of history and manuscripts would seem valuable wouldn't you agree?”

Manuscript evidence is what is important. This is physical evidence.

What does the physical evidence say?

“An "extant 1400 year old Koran" would have to be from the year 603-4 CE and from history we know that Muhammad was born around the year 571 CE so a 1400 year old Koran to which you are referring would have to be from before the Hijra or 622 CE and the ministry of Prophet Muhammad began around the years 610 to 613 CE so i think something is wrong with your assumption here! You are assuming that Moslems have a "popular myth" that there are Korans that are 1400 years old without being aware that would place such "manuscripts" well before the Revelation itself.”

First of all, it is ~1400 years give or take a few years. Muslims state the 1400 year figure routinely and this is hardly an “assumption” according to faithful Muslims.

”There is a site where a manuscript of the Qur'an has been dated from the year 107 AH or 725 CE and it is from the Egyptian National Library.”

Well, thanks for confirming what I already stated in a previous post…..and that is that ONLY FRAGMENTS exist a century AFTER the supposed event took place.

Muslims call fragments “manuscripts”, which obviously can be very misleading. I invite you to comb the Islamic awareness site and you will find exactly what I already stated.

”One of the properties of the Qur'an to this day is that it is consantly recited and this process of recitation has been occurring since the revelation itself began.... Note the word "Iqra" found in 96:1; 96:3 and 17:14 means "recite" and "Proclaim!" and Moslems have been recitng and procaliming ever since.”

So?

Recitation holds zero credibility to the authenticity of any material.

”What this means is that there was constant recitation of the Revelation from the beginning ...every Friday service would be a recitation...every Ramadan a complete recitataion of what had been revealed up to that point. The Qur'an was a work in progress over the entire ministry of Prophet Muhammad.”

Again, so what?

”Secretaries also took down what was revealed and some of these writings were on Palm leaves and bones.”

And this proves what, exactly?

”Also many of the Companions of the Prophet had memorized the entire Qur'an before it was finally collated and set down to writing.”

Art….you have given me examples from silence.

Physical evidence is where it is at. Give me something that I can physically verify.

Thanks…

Apple Pie · 02-24-2004, 02:17 AM

Greetings Brian,

Thanks for your reply.

“That could be an unfortunately narrow view and will surely flaw your view.”

I assure you that it is not. Thanks for your concern, though…

“You should really take a look at the application of numerology in the Bible - there were often very specific reasons for the use of certain numbers.”

Just how would isopsephia and surface numbers apply to the point that I just made?

There can be little doubt that the Holy Bible is a numerical composition, of which is totally absent within the pages of the Koran. The Koran did quite a “chop-job” when it borrowed from the Book of Revelation.

Thank for bringing this point up…

arthra · 02-24-2004, 05:02 AM

Apple pie,

From what you've written so far I've not seen any sources presented here that would indicate the Book of Revelation was in Arabic and available to the Prophet during His ministry, therefore to make a claim there was a "chop job" on the Book of Revelation seems pretty baseless.

Your claim that there is a widely held belief among Moslems of an extant 1400 year Qur'an is also presented here without any sources....

I also think you show a rather condescending attitude toward Islam.

What we have left are your assertions and beliefs but not much more in my view.

- Art

Apple Pie · 02-24-2004, 05:21 AM

Greetings Art…

Thanks for your comments…

”From what you've written so far I've not seen any sources presented here that would indicate the Book of Revelation was in Arabic and available to the Prophet during His ministry, therefore to make a claim there was a "chop job" on the Book of Revelation seems pretty baseless.”

With all due respect, you seem offended by my candid statements. Why is this?

Are you Muslim? Or does the FACT that the Koran proclaims Jesus to be God, an issue with your faith?

I am puzzled by your insistence of “proving” that a copy of the Book of Revelation must be in the hands of the Koranic authors in order to “prove” what has occurred.

The proof of what occurred is staring you right in the face in the Arabic Koran…

”Your claim that there is a widely held belief among Moslems of an extant 1400 year Qur'an is also presented here without any sources....”

This is a common myth among Muslims. All of my Muslim friends adhere to it. You already “calculated” the 1400 years within just a few years. What’s the problem?

Btw….did you check out Islamic awareness for what I stated? I think that you did…

”I also think you show a rather condescending attitude toward Islam.”

I state it the way that it is…

”What we have left are your assertions and beliefs but not much more in my view.”

My conclusions are based upon years of study of the relevant extant material. If you want to go in-depth on certain passages of the Koran; I would be delighted…

Just let me know…

I, Brian · 02-24-2004, 08:42 AM

Apple Pie, your tone is somewhat aggressive to the fact that you seem purposefully and deliberately looking to dismiss Islam. Please note that this is not an acceptable position on CR.

This is further compounded by the fact that you are delivering certain statements that are not simply factually incorrect, but also potentially offensive on the forum.

I have also read the Qur'an (and Bible) and am quite aware that certain issues you are making claim to have no basis beyond your own personal interpretation.

Now, if you want to share in your appraisal of Islam and how it may or may not relate to the Book of Revelations as a study (with sources and references) then you are indeed welcome to start up a thread on the "Comparative Study" board, where we can engage in a very real discussion of your ideas.

However, this topic itself serves no purpose on the "Monotheism" board, other than to attack the founding beliefs of others on a board where it is not invited.

Thus, thread closed.