|
|||||||||
| Esoteric Esoteric traditions and Mysticism, Gnosticism, Wisdom Traditions and alternative thought. |
 |
|
|
Thread Tools | Rate Thread |
07-10-2007, 12:16 PM
|
#76 (permalink) | |||
|
From across the Tiber
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,227
 |
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
On the rest, we know only too well where we 'agree to disagree' but might I ask, if you do accept a certain uniqueness of symbol, and what that signifies esoterically, might there not be room to argue that it is that unique aspect of Christianity in this context that has been overlooked? It seems to me that what is a unique expression is assumed to be false because it doesn't tally with the Theosophist reading of other traditions? Does this not put you in danger of claiming infallible knowledge of every tradition? There is also something of an old chestnut with regard to Theosophy's view of Christian doctrine all other traditions would 'agree to disagree' with the fullness of Christian doctrine, but none have ever claimed the doctrine to be false, spurious or fabricated that accusation is, I think, unique to Thesophy. Such accusations of the falsification of sacra doctrina, really need to be substantiated. It is unfortunate that some critics, such as the psychic Nick quotes, make accusations without any evidence other than a total dependence on the infallibility and judgement of the critic which is always questionable, and undermines the credibility of their testimony. Otherwise I am obliged to accept such comments as a dogma, which seems contra to Theosophic thinking? And as any esoterist knows, and as Bruce has also pointed out the 'Otherworld' is not infallible, and its discernment is an art as well as a science. What I do wonder about is something of a mixed message and maybe this is because, as I understand you Nick, there is no certitude ... no, perhaps too dogmatic a word? ... no assertion of doctrine in Theosophy, yet if indeed 'there is no religion higher than truth', then is not truth itself rendered subjective by the absence of any assertation? You seem to claim that truth is accessible to all, on the one hand, and yet insist on the idea of the initiate, and an elite, on the other Nick does the same, to a more explicit degree. Is this an example of a non-obligatory message of Theosophy? Thomas |
|||
|
|
|
07-12-2007, 01:53 AM
|
#77 (permalink) | |
|
co-pilgrim
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 751
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Thomas ... I'm glad we agree on at least a couple of points. It might not surprise you that as I typed the line about motifs and symbolism, common vs. unique elements, I had a feeling it might resonate.
The question from there, as you have brought to light under the bit about Soul vs. upadhi ... is where do we go from our point(s) of agreement? And it seems to me, that you wish to highlight what is unique to Christianity, and of especial value to those who choose to tread the esoteric path - while remaining (more or less) true to exoteric Christianity. Such a group will, as Nick and I have pointed out many a time, include both Theosophists and otherwise students of the Ageless Wisdom, not to mention additional Perennialists who may choose to disagree with various of the Theosophical assertions or authorities (such as yourself, Bruce Michael, Earl, path_of_one, and others). The goal, as I see it, consists not in trying to form one giant amalgamation - or forced syncretism - of spiritual beliefs, teachings, schools and constitutent followers ... but, at least for students of the Ageless Wisdom tradition, in exploring whether or not a Core Wisdom Teaching has in fact existed on our planet all along. Still, the gradual evolution of One World Religion is something which I am convinced is coming about already and as according to (the Divine) Plan. This, and nothing less, is what I understand by such New Testament verses as John 10:16, and the affirmation that a house, divided against itself, cannot stand (Matthew 12:25), as well as in related passages Luke 11:34 & Matthew 6:22, not to mention I Corinthians 12:12 - "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."In fact, it is just by examining and comparing such passages, that we can plainly see (I would hope), that Christ's earlier Ministry here among us was already intending to precipitate precisely the kind of global religious unification which most poeple I know advocate and strive toward. This is not a new idea, and it is not some kind of secret, conspiratorial, underhanded New Age agenda ... whereby some specific SET of religious doctrinces or wishy-washy, purely theoretical platitudes are intended to replace age-old traditions, liturgies - or unique & specific claims to spiritual revelation. This is the kind of straw-manning of Theosophical and related movements, even of the `New Age' presentation (a stepped-down version of esoteric teachings, as I see it) ... which turns my stomach, and thus, when I see it occur - I am duty and honor-bound to speak out! Quote:
Rather, the Theosophist, and student of the Ageless Wisdom tradition, asserts that:
And this has been the bone of contention between Theosophical types, and students of the Ageless Wisdom from DAY ONE ... which goes back well before the modern Theosophical Movement in the 19th Century. It goes back many, many centuries ... yet students of the Ageless Wisdom can show examples from in fact, thousands of years ago, even predating ALL of the currently known or extant world religions. You see, Thomas, the shoe is actually on the other foot. Does not `Domine Iesus' prove my point incontrovertibly? NOT the (scapegoated) Theosophists, but in fact, precisely these warring members who would otherwise constitute ONE, United Body ... these are the folks who are claiming, "WE have THE Truth, DO NOT look elsewhere, ALL OTHERS are liars, THOSE paths to Salvation are slower, more prone to error ... or just dead wrong!!!"   The Theosophist, or at least every single one I've had the honor to have known or met, says just the opposite. But let's quote The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah (p. 114), from a post by BruceDLimber today on the Baha'i forum, in making my point: "There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you."Thomas, if it's the Theosophists with whom you have so much disagreement and problem, then what do you say to the quote above? What about those darn, pesky Baha'i's, seeking after precisely the same Unity, based upon precisely the same affirmations, as the Theosophists?  Are you prepared to level your canons (sic) AGAINST them, as well, and sow dissension ... even while increasing numbers of followers, and members of every group & faith, tradition & teaching, all begin to seek Unity, and join together? {Speaking of Unity, I got an offer in the mail for a free issue of Their magazine ... which I've sent off for ...} ~+~+~ As far as the assertion of doctrine in Theosophy, it is not that there is no such, it is that - one is free to take it or leave it. One will not be condemned, ridiculed, excommunicated (!), or told that s/he will burn in eternal hellfire ... OR that s/he has just lost favor with God, or distanced oneself from the Divine Presence ... simply because one chooses to travel one's OWN spiritual path. You see, THIS - is precisely what Theosophy encourages!  As for this Path, which leads straight to the Heart of God, Whom shall we believe, as we seek guidance, information and greater Strength, along our Journey? Those who have speculations as to what that Path might be like, or Those Who, having gone before us, know PRECISELY the nature of the Journey we are on? Having already attained to the goal as taught us in Ephesians 4:13, the Great Ones offer Their assistance ... without which we can but flounder and falter, if we manage to progress at all. Why do They help us? Because They are the very expression of God's Love upon our Planet. Hierarchy, as defined in the Ageless Wisdom teachings, is the "Heart chakra" of Planet Earth. They are Christ and His Church, and if we have gaps in our understanding, then let us do as we are encouraged ... LET US ASK QUESTIONS. It is when, and because, the ecclesiastical authorities throughout the centuries have discouraged - even FORBIDDEN - free inquiry ... assserting their OWN presumed, and false authority, also punishing such free inquiry with the above mentioned consequences - even to the extremes of torture and death ... it is because of ALL THIS, that men such as myself choose to speak out against the false church, insisting that there is a better way. And we speak, not from a sense of false or vain hope, nor even simply because we think that surely there must exist a straighter, narrower path. It is because we know, and because we have known, both Those who tread that Path ... and, to whatever extent, the Path itself. And our direct testimony, however incomplete or subject to the errors of our human imperfections, is nevertheless indication enough for the earnest seeker (who may not, as yet, have witnessed what we have witnessed) - that the search IS WORTH the effort, and that the Journey IS WORTH the sacrifice. I cannot speak, as one who has reached the Goal, and say, "Fear not, do not hesitate." If anything, I would caution those who are a bit too carefree, or do not find themselves ready to make a commitment. I would encourage inquiry, and self-education, but I would suggest prudence, and a serious - though optimistic and positive attitude - as one begins (or continues) the Search. Had I reached the end of the line, I feel confident that I could say much of this, and also add to my testimony that no sacrifice is too great ... as we are trading the temporal for the Eternal, the lesser for the Greater, the non-self for the Self, and needless suffering & illusion for Truth, clarity and Immortality. Namaskar |
|
|
|
|
|
07-12-2007, 04:06 AM
|
#78 (permalink) |
|
co-pilgrim
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 751
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
There are times, rare times, when I feel that - because of the nature, the subject, of conversation ... "winning" the battle of words can actually become a priority.
Often, almost always, it's not what we're really here for. It may even be the last thing that actually matters. And there are times, plenty of times, when I have realized (here at CR, or elsewhere), that perhaps the conflict or contention was really just an issue of semantics, or perspective, or simple human misunderstanding. But as I finished my previous post, I realized - this turns out to be one of the few times when the battle of words, is in fact, the battle of Truth over illusion, or Truth over falsehood. Inasmuch as this is the case, I am not trying to be disagreeable. I represent no earthly organization(s), and therefore, my agenda - to the extent that it is not about "saving face," or "just winning an argument" - will not be that of someone who is defending a creed, a specific doctrine, a body of believers and their traditions, or even a great Prophet, even where this Prophet has helped facilitate the Divine Plan ... to whatever degree, in some form or fashion. There is something, and Someone, to Whom and which, I am pledged and committed, however poorly I may at times live up to my obligations. And I have learned, that to recognize and address any one of the Great Ones, is truly to recognize and address all of the Hierarchy - that is, every "other" Master. In my mind, and my understanding, the person who sees the Great Ideal in Jesus of Nazareth ... even if that person fails to recognize it elsewhere, or within any other living being, nevertheless that person does have experience, and contact, with his or her Master. One day, s/he may discover that his or her own Master ... was not, and is not, Jesus of Nazareth at all! And the same will be true of Sri Krishna, or the Buddha, Mohammad, Zoroaster, etc. But because the devotee, and the student of world religions, or of some specific religious tradition ... has contacted the Divine Ideal, existing manifest within the Saviour or Avatar, as the object of his or her devotion (or attention), the connection has been made, regardless, and God, on High, is Aware. Everything else, at this point, becomes secondary. Specific doctrinal differences, between or even amongst, the various and numerous world faiths and religious traditions ... are a matter of importance, but not of primary importance. For God, there are only the many, beautiful Children ... each unique, yet One, within the Divine Mind, Heart or bosom. We can certainly discuss secondary points; and I enjoy that, too, sometimes. But if we do not begin - with the a priori Truth (recognized, or not, and this may be our problem) ... that ALL SOULS are ONE SOUL, fundamentally, foundationally, spiritually and eternally ... then no amount of arguing, witnessing, rationalizing, or gabbing, is going to bring us to this innate, if as yet unawakened, recognition (and thus, agreement). It is not, you see, just a good idea, or some kind of happy platitude, much less an interesting piece of theological or metaphysical conjecture. That, I'm afraid, belongs over on the philosophy forums, but certainly this is a valid stage on our journey ... as our inherent Unity (and relationship with God) isn't necessarily intuitively obvious, much less a part of our everyday, sense and cognitive experience. The esotericist, at least in terms of the Ageless Wisdom tradition, and presumably the great majority of Theosophists, are precisely such individuals who have moved past the stage of utter doubt and insistent skepticism ... and have thus begun, in however preliminary a mode or fashion, to recognize the above primary point, regarding our inherent Unity, and the Universality of God's Revelation to mankind. The secondary points, of course, remain of great interest, but so long as I am approaching the subject of possible religious cooperation as purely an ecumenical, or anthropological, or philosophically speculative one, I will never quite see eye to eye with those who have accepted certain things a priori. This does, and necessarily will, sound elitist, especially to those who pride themselves on their great amount of learning, many years of experience - even in Interfaith endeavors, or perhaps researching, discussing, even lecturing upon esoteric topics. However, there is no rule anywhere which says, that just because one has an interest in these things, this person will necessarily be a "convert," or suddenly gain an epiphany into the kind of primary Truth(s) I am talking about. Given enough time, and certain sincere dedication, focus, and above all, selfless, altrustic commitment ... it is safe to say, awakening will, and does occur. But just to the extent that this is genuine ALTRUISM in action, and not just the seeking of knowledge for the sake of knowledge, or some form of worldy pursuit (however veiled & subtle) ... to that extent, one's spiritual awakening can progress with amazing rapidity, and as the Great Ones have told us, MANY lifetimes can be lived, as it were, within the space of a single, albeit difficult, lifetime - full of trials, tests and struggle, but of immeasurable spiritual reward. And the Purpose for all of this? What is that again? To achieve SALVATION for one's own Soul? No Thomas, No Deborah, No ... for anyone not familiar with the teaching, that WE are the incarnation OF our Soul, and the latter is not "ours" to "do with" as we please. How can I, the temporal/temporary, mortal and imperfect man (or woman), possibly determine the fate or destiny, of a BEING - complete with its OWN Mind, it's OWN Heart, its OWN forms of expression, and in fact its OWN entire Spiritual Evolution ... just because that Soul has taken on a specific burden, and made a sacrifice - out of a Love for me, much as I love and accept the responsibility of caring for a pet dog or cat? The Ageless Wisdom, with an entirely different "theology" of the Soul - and thus a soteriology which is almost completely at odds with the Judeo-Christian - reorients the student to the more accurate (though not the "ultimately" True) state of affairs. It is my Soul which has made the sacrifice, and devoted itself, through countless incarnations, to "bearing with me" - through thick and thin - with neither judgment nor condemnation, but only genuine, abiding Love. And for this reason, it is (sometimes) known among esotericists as the Christ Principle. If, and when, at that point in my journey where I have demonstrated such receptivity to the influence of the Soul, and such willingness to cooperate with the Spiritual Ideal(s) which my Soul literally embodies (and thus mediates to me, from on High) ... if at such a point, I can demonstrate to the onlooking Body of Humanity's Guides, that I am ready for the Path of Disicpleship, THEN and then only, might I hope to come into direct acquaintance with a Master or Representative of the Hierarchy, or even, if I am fortunate, with the Great One Whom I might come to call, my Master. Sadly, those who are clearly in no position to make such assertions, save that they themselves have not had such a direct experience, nevertheless feel themselves gifted with some kind of spiritual authority to make all sorts of proclamations, and foolish claims, that such wise, loving individuals do not exist ... and that in fact, their followers are either deluded, deceived, or perhaps just demented. And remember, when one's commitment, above all else, is simply the defending of the status quo, and the upholding of one's own, cherished and sacred religious tradition ... regardless of the facts, and at all costs, then unfortunately, the Emissaries of the Brotherhood of Adepts do, quite often, suffer - whether it be imprisonment, torture, and crucifixion, or just the usual slandering, gossip and ridicule. It would be helpful, of course, if the diehard skeptic could himself, or herself, witness just such a `Great One,' in person ... so that s/he was in a better position to make such sweeping statements as, "Oh, these beings are just phantoms, chimeras of an overactive imagination." I would think that for the true rationalist, certain experiences and events would force him to withdraw this false accusation, and affirm its opposite ... perhaps even leading to a questioning of his very loyalties. After all, if Galileo cannot even be acquitted for his great crimes against Humanity, the Church, God and Truth, even here at the turn of the 21st Century ... do we really expect to find, when all is said and done, that WE HAVE NOT been decieved - EVEN IF unintentionally - about ... uhh, errr, well, you know, a couple or so, mmmm, spiritual - things??? When Christ came before, it was Judaism, the existing tradition, age-old and encrusted ... which He taught us to question, to examine, and to REJECT ... IF and when, we found that this man-made religion contradicted and undermined our God-given teachings, understanding and authority. And so we did, with great consequences ... Christ Himself experiencing the swordpoint - NOT in the hands of the Roman authorities, but of the Jewish Sanhedrin. History repeats itself. Bear WITNESS. This is a familiar tale. In the East, the great religion of Hindusim, with the Brahmans encrusted in their austerities, chained by millennia of ritual, and up to their ears in dead-letter interpretation ... balked at what the Buddha had to say, and history also records that when Issa traveled East, he evoked the wrath of the Hindu authorities, for precisely the same reason that the Sanhedrin had him murdered. It does not matter. Fast forward, or rewind, you will find that this is ever the case in the history of our planet. So what is more important, emphasizing our differences ... or focusing on the similiarities? If we do one, we may never finally come together. If we choose the other, we risk the continued OUTRAGE of the authorities, and shall certainly upset the ecclesiasts, for THEY HAVE FOUGHT HARD to build their traditions, spilling much blood over the centuries, and have squeezed the common man at every opportunity to build their empire. Some good has been done, yes, much of it by individuals, here and there, often with no organizational affliation whatsoever ... OR by men who, while not wishing to "toss the baby out with the bathwater," nevertheless risked (and WON) excommunication, torture, or death - not just to make a point (though Galileo seemed to have been onto something, eh?), but to build Christ's Church. And thus St. Francis labored out of Love, and Christ's Church was built. Christ's Church is built today, even though many of the carpenters are not Christians. Either we understand this, or we have much, much to learn. But becoming open to criticism, and accepting that there are ERRORS, STILL in need of correction ... THIS is not a sign of weakness; it is a sign of MATURITY. Humility, and a willingness to learn and grow; THIS is how Christ taught His Apostles to go out and move amidst the world. And by reaching the people where they were, instead of dolling out rote sermons on the Celestial Hierarchies, or Heaven's Greatest Mysteries. I may sometimes forget my role, I will admit ... OF COURSE I do!  But just because I must speak to the man on the bus about his musical taste, or what he did with his family this past 4th of July, does not mean I am not seeking to connect with him spiritually. Yet, if I am judged later, and the decision made regarding my awareness of esoteric teachings, based upon this one conversation with that man on the bus, will it appear that I am well-versed, or will it not seem that I was just another guy? The latter will seem to be the case, and it's true enough, no matter what I know. But why would the Apostles venture forth casting their "pearls" before "swine" ... just as a matter of habit, and without the least bit of interest in the level of awareness, and the overall receptivity of the audience in question? And yet, as if we ourselves cannot gain insight into such events, we still insist on things like, "There was but one Gospel, and one doctrine, and it was taught to all alike, and there were no secrets - certainly no esoteric body of teachings ... but in fact, ALL WAS IN PLAIN SIGHT." This begs the very question, does it not? All is in plain sight, yes, for him who hath the eyes to see it, the ears to hear it ... even the Kingdom of Heaven, should he be so perceptive. Christ saw it, and He revealed it to the Apostles, just as the Buddha had shown His bhikkus, and Sri Krishna had shown His followers. EVERY Teacher, when the time is right, reveals this to His student(s). And it is always ... here for us to see. RIGHT here. +-+-+-+ I could not begin to understand Esoteric Truth in terms of the more Eastern myths, stories and motifs. The symbols, too, are more than I have ever been able to grasp. If I had that degree of knowledge, then like St. Paul (or Philo Judaeus), I too would be Initiate. The most I can claim, is that I aspire toward such understanding, and that the Path of Service is the only Path I wish to tread. No effort is wasted, even in my shortcomings, if I am willing to learn from my mistakes, and apply the lessons from there on out. Love and Light, ~Andrew |
|
|
|
|
07-12-2007, 02:06 PM
|
#79 (permalink) | |||||||||
|
From across the Tiber
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,227
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Hi Andrew
We could go through this point by point, but I think that the 'carbon footprint' of our combined posts would actually register somewhere! So I shall just give overview comments, for the sake of brevity. Quote:
Quote:
To me exo/eso : body/soul. Quote:
Going on from that, I would say that the Wisdom of God is present, to a greater or lesser degree, in all traditions, but I do not believe that there is an ultimate or absolute deposit, a 'Core' tradition, if I might call it that, which presents a 'pure form' that can be observed apart from those traditions ... somewhere between God and religion ... I would respond by saying I hold that to be an abstraction, an intellectual hypothesis, a bit like Anselm's 'ontological argument' for the existence of God ... it can neither be proven nor disproven. +++ Quote:
Equally all traditions open into the Absolute Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Brahminism, etc., they all have all that is required to do the job. I fail to see what a 'One World Religion' can offer that the others don't, but then I see the fault lies with man, not the religion. In defending my own position, I would say that, to me, Christianity (and I am now obliged to say 'traditional' Christianity Roman, Greek, etc.) is the most immediate and direct, an unmediated dialogue between creature and Creator. +++ Quote:
Andrew ... I know I am moving onto very thin ice ... but p-l-e-a-s-e bear with me, in the spirit of discussion. Allow me to say that the above has been precisely my experience of Theosophy: 1 No Buddhist, no Sufi, no Daoist, no whoever, has ever said to me 'your religion is wrong' except a theosophist. 2 Followers of other traditions are not required to support their own beliefs on the grounds that my sacred texts are forgeries, corruptions, fabrications, etc... 3 Buddhists, Jews, Daoists, etc, argue their point from their perspective and their own data every time I get involved with a Theosophist the argument is that they know more about my tradition than I do, that the orthodox Christian data is erroneous, our our understanding is erroneous. Recently both myself (Christian) and another (Jew) were informed point blank that out texts had been retro-edited to fit, and that the only true text was in the possession of Theosophy, but we're not allowed to see it ... that the Bible has been falsified to suit some power-mad agenda. Never with evidence, mark you, and often on frankly a not very well informed premise ... other than their own belief that it must be the case, because it's different to what they choose to believe. I'm truly sorry, but in the absence of material evidence, then I am entitled to say 'I don't believe it, and see no reason to,' especially whe you're not obliged to believe it either ... Nor does secret transmissions to psychics from the astral light help, as the astral light is as creaky as man's sensibility. You know as well as I the AL is s storehouse of much, including all the febrile human imaginings in pursuit of whatever, as well as other data ... so the point is not the AL, which is not infallible, but the interpreter, who is equally not infaiilble. I look forward to the day when TS presents itself as itself, without the apparent requirement to present itself as the only authentic version of something else. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Shall I respond in kind? I would not have to look far to bring up accusations against TS, HPB, Leadbeater ... and in the past I have, but I am trying to avoid this tit-for-tat ... please do not take us there. Thomas |
|||||||||
|
|
|
|
07-12-2007, 03:10 PM
|
#80 (permalink) | ||
|
From across the Tiber
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,227
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Quote:
'Look!' he cried, 'everyone's marching out of step, but me!' And yet I know this is not you. +++ Quote:
Why can you not measure your own worth without demeaning others? And can you not see that it is because of humility itself that someone might be caused to stand up and defend the countless millions who have passed through this world, with nothing to cling on to but a faith in God who loves, and whom you dismiss so casually, and so cruelly? If this offends, I don't mean it to ... but rather ask ... cannot you see that what you consider an offence by response is simply a reaction to the superior and dismissive manner by which you write off all those who choose to follow another path but that which is, you must agree, uniquely yours? That your version of Truth might not be the Ultimate and Absolute? Thomas |
||
|
|
|
|
07-12-2007, 05:09 PM
|
#81 (permalink) | |
|
Executive Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 2,463
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Quote:
Paul in his address to the Athenians recognizes universality of God, though He is not completely understood by Paul's audience. But he also allows the exploration of that search to be accessible to everyone, that is, knowledge of God is never that far away. Furthermore, if we are to believe Jesus, we are to come to Him as little children, which tells me that that accessibility does not require esoteric knowledge, but simple faith and trust in God. |
|
|
|
|
|
07-12-2007, 05:19 PM
|
#82 (permalink) |
|
From across the Tiber
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,227
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Hi Andrew
I've got a sneaky feeling my last post might upset you. If it does, can you see how it might upset me? I hope it doesn't, and I get the feeling that the way things are read are not the sentiment you wished to express. Anyway, although we'll never agree, I hope we can keep things on an even keel. Thomas |
|
|
|
|
07-12-2007, 06:41 PM
|
#83 (permalink) |
|
Executive Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
Posts: 1,089
|
~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
Andrew, You said,
"...the gradual evolution of One World Religion is something which I am convinced is coming about already...."--> It has been said a large number of people will become psychic in the next several thousand years. When that happens, the One World Religion will quickly come about (or so they way). It is something I am very much looking forward to. By the way, regarding psychics telling what is really "out there", I have been communicating with a couple good psychics, and they have been telling me about how close Theosophy gets to saying what really goes on in the next world(s). (Pretty close, they say.) For example, there seems to be widespread agreement on the Astral, Mental, Buddhic, and Atman Levels. They stress the need for us to practice raising our levels of consciousness, in order to become conscious on each of these Levels. Also, as you probably know, there has been a great deal of arguing among Theosophists as to whether the Etheric Double really eixsts. The psychics say it does (which I am glad to hear). According to them, some people who achieve "astral travel" are only achieving consciousness in the Etheric Double, which is not the Astral Body, and is much more restrictive. We are fortunate to have these ways of validating Theosophical ideas. |
|
|
|
|
07-13-2007, 06:45 PM
|
#84 (permalink) | |
|
From across the Tiber
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,227
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Quote:
In the early Church we have records of slaves attending services alongside senators all social distinctions were set aside when entering the sacred space. Sadly, over the centuries, they too often creep back in. I think 'esoteric Christianity' is more often than not just a form of intellectual snobbery. (ps: Andrew not in your case EC it fits in with your wider viewpoint, there are others, not here, I have in mind.) (pps: Doesn't mean I think you're right, though )Loving God is easy, loving the person next to you in the pew can be difficult. My mother had a family heirloom stolen from her whilst at Mass on Christmas Day can you believe that? Why, for all love, would someone bother to go to church on Christmas Day and then steal a bracelet they saw slip from their neighbour's wrist? What do they think is going on? (My mother knows in retrospect when and how it was stolen). Thomas |
|
|
|
|
|
07-14-2007, 08:39 AM
|
#85 (permalink) | ||||||
|
co-pilgrim
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 751
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Quote:
Quote:
Belief in a thing ... does not make it so!Trying to tell me that religion is the opiate of the masses, are you? Fine. But then let's not pretend that it is anything else. As an esotericist - or at least, someone with such a background, interest, and commitment to remaining an esoteric student - I must contest the idea that faith alone ... can buy us Salvation (much less lead us any farther, along the Path of Initiation). Do you yourself not indicate this on your own newest thread on Doxia and Praxis, Thomas? Quote:
Something that must be made clear about the Ageless Wisdom teachings, it is that they provide us a means to overcome our present state of ignorance ... AND they give us good reason to do so - a Purpose, in short. Your argument, Thomas, seems to be that so long as we pay lip service, then the rest does not matter. If this is not quite what you've suggested, then it's dangerously close. How strange, that you go on to post an entirely separate philosophy, on a different thread, even here on the esoteric forum!!!  The ideal, of course, is - to not only UNDERSTAND a thing (in this case, some of the Lesser Mysteries), but also to act accordingly. Otherwise, the Buddha's parting advice to His Bhikkus is for nought, and He become a fool! Whatever else the Buddha was, He was no fool. He was surely one of the wisest Beings ... to ever walk the face of this Earth. Let us not make Him into an ignoramus! Quote:
One God, One Humanity ... and accordinly, ONE TRUTH. Until we can see eye to eye on this point, our relationship must proceed from, and remain seated within, the Heart. And that is fine (it is THE ideal starting point!!!), but it means we will not be able to discuss much. Every time we try to move toward the philosophical, we will be buying into entirely different sets of assumptions, or theoretical frameworks .... Quote:
What I simply maintain, since it is my direct observation, participatory experience, finding - and understanding ... is that, indeed, "God is at the Core." And in your own words, nor do I "need to seek elsewhere than at the source." Therefore, while each of the world's major religious traditions IS of interest to me, and while SEVERAL of the less well known forms of religious practice remain of interest ... and while EVEN a handful of long forgotten, or perhaps underground, Mystery Traditions do peak my interest ... I am a practitioner of NONE of these. Each and every one of these traditions, faiths, and religions, EACH with its own set of motifs and symbolism, liturgies and holy observances ... was surely the Gift of God to the people - of a particular time, and culture, and geographical location ... and even existing spiritual background. What is often overlooked, is that God does not simply - step in, as it were, to some SPIRITUALLY DEVOID group of people (a religious tabula rasa, as it were) ... even if, as tends to occur, the rituals and practices, and the very beliefs of a given people have digressed - from the original Inspiration, and Indications, which were provided, at some point in the distant, or not-so distant, history of their culture and religious tradition. Rather, a `Divine Assessment,' if I might venture to make so bold a statement (and bear with me now, if you will ... so that I may explain!), takes into consideration the Blueprint - which was the Original Inspiration (in the Mind of God!) for the religion, people, culture and scenario in question ... and this assessment goes on to consider, in the intervening centuries (or decades, or millennia, or even aeons - vast ages) - what has occurred (?) ... This is a rather simplistic presentation, but I am just suggesting that God DOES gauge - the PROGRESS which has been made, in "HIS" Name, as it were ... and as the Bible might put it, separates the Wheat from the chaff. Nor is this a one-time, future event ... for which all the faithful followers of a given tradition must carefully prepare. I'm saying, that this occurs every single day, at least on some small scale, while yet - on a larger scale - there are definite cyclical ASSESSMENTS (plural), wherein adjustments, or changes to a religion, may be made. And these changes can and do occur, via the Work of the Prophets, as well as great Teachers and Sages ... which are known in the East as Avatars, being somewhat different, technically, than Saviours (as termed in the West), but fulfilling a similar function. And there areWestern Avatars ... In another post, I want to share what an Armenian esoteric teacher indicates about cyclical appearances, in his book, Christ: The Avatar of Sacrifical Love. This will help to answer much of the question regarding what happens to this initial Spiritual Inspiration, after the Great Founders return to the Spiritual Centre whence They have all emanated. But you see, Thomas, this is what I believe. And it is a belief shared by many thousands (tens of thousands) of esotericists worldwide. For this group, known unitedly under the moniker NGWS (New Group of World Servers), all outer differences do truly fall away. And thus, while for you, and for many, one's INDIVIDUAL religious choice (and beliefs) may matter - even greatly so, the NGWS sees only UNITY. The Unity known, does not exist, because differences are not acknowledged. It exists, because they are acknowledged, and transcended. As one Spiritual Teacher has put it, "The Greater always includes the lesser." And no, no matter how much you, or anyone else insists, I cannot - and will not - be convinced ... that Christianity is greater than ANY other world religion, inherently ... or vice versa! {My own preference may be for the ancient Vedic teachings which are truly foundational in the modern expression of `The Ancient Wisdom,' but I value these primarily for the role they have played in my own quest for Purpose, meaning and spiritual guidance ... NOT as inherently "superior" to any other set of teachings! If THIS is the kind of relativism you are advocating, Thomas, and one of yours points, then yes, we are on the same page here! }Quote:
Yes, it is difficult to imagine, or hypothesize, an abstract Core Wisdom which yet (and please note the qualifier) concerns God's specific relationship with His Human Children on this (let alone other) planets. After all, what would that "look like?" We have a thousand names for God, and the most concrete depictions involve the provision of the Divine with some kind of human or animal form, or another upadhi/means of expression (presumably) found in nature (although human technological advances, especially electronic ones, invite other speculation). Precisely the argument of the Ageless Wisdom, is that God wishes to become known to His Children, and that although God's highest forms of expression are far, far beyond our ken, we may nonetheless understand ... even while we remain here on Planet Earth, in the flesh. Our bodies, even flesh & blood, are not, ultimately, an impediment ... for it is ONLY through them (or rather, their right appropriation and mastery) - THAT we may fully come to know God, and fulfil the Purpose(s) for which God has placed us here! And yet, as we have already agreed, we are more than just flesh & blood, as there are animating prinicples: the "breath of God," even in the most mundane sense - Prana, Chi, Elan Vital, Ruah or the etheric double - plus an astral-emotional body, a mental body (or mind) ... and a SOUL. Not surprisingly, I find that our agreement starts to break down, as soon as I try to proceed past the astral-emotional princple (and its vehicle, the kama-rupa of Hindu teachings). As soon as I say mind, or lower mental body (its Theosophical designation, while easily half a dozen correlating terms can be taken from various Hindu schools) ... I wonder where you go off to, Thomas. All that I ask, is that YOU TELL ME - from within the Christian teachings or tradition - WHAT is the correlation? I know I should hardly be one to ask for brevity, but I would hope, that you could perhaps provide a single, definite, precise and indicative term ... whereby the Church Fathers recognized our human, mortal MIND, AS A PRINCIPLE. Or, barring that, at least something definite, without a five volume treatise on it ... Anyway, in Theosophical terminology, this has often been called kama-rupa, wherein the lower mental body is grouped together with the astral-emotional body ... since, admittedly, these usually function together, as a unit. For the two of us, however, I would think it should be exceedingly clear, that it is possible to be rational-minded, or tending toward the intellectual side, without given over as entirely to the emotional princple as are a great many people we likely know! Not that we don't all have our moments, nor am I suggesting that we are philosophers after the Greeks, or anything like that. But certainly these are brilliant examples of men who, generally speaking, were exceedingly well-disicplined emotionally, such that the more rational, intellectual princple could shine out. And of course, there were exceptions ... Clearly, I have not quite gotten to what I wanted to say on the Core Wisdom as it exists - imho - in the abstract form beyond our ken, which is nevertheless 100% perfectly objective ... and thus verifiable (because at least partially observable and OPEN to our experience). But I want to return to this, after I give my brain a chance to vege out in front of the boob tube. I want to see what happened to the Doctor (a few weeks back), after he took human form and fell in love just before WWI. Incidentally, to prepare for the new Harry Potter movie, I re-watched Goblet of Fire just last night, and observed a number of points in the vein of esoteric teachings and familiar subjects ... some already mentioned in this thread. Dumbledore's Pensieve, for example (wordplay on pensive, being a device to sift out and store various memories), immediately brought my thoughts to the Akash (or Astral Light), yet some of the utterances of the varoius characters - especially toward the end - are powerful, very powerful, and quite deep. The movie moved me, and I hope it has meaning for others, likewise. Can't say much about the new one though ... I haven't seen it yet!!! Cheers ... ~Andrew +++ |
||||||
|
|
|
|
07-14-2007, 05:45 PM
|
#86 (permalink) | ||||||||||||
|
From across the Tiber
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,227
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Hi Andrew
Quote:
"But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God..." (John 1:12-13) "The Divine took on a human nature, that human nature might open into the Divine" to paraphrase St Irenaeus of Lyon. That is what we believe, but that is beyond all proving. That is the 'scandal' of faith of which St Paul speaks. This text makes no requirement for knowledge, otherwise intellectual capacity would be a requirement for salvation, and only the clever could be saved. But faith does not mean 'a nod in the direction of' but actually living the praxis according to what one believes the orthos. Faith is simple. Living it is hard. Quote:
I am saying that faith in the datum of Revelation data which itself lies beyond empirical proof. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I could easily, and as wrongly, accuse you of paying lip service to religion by just collecting the facts rather than observing the wisdom. Quote:
... I am coming close, by the way, to a provisional acceptance that one who has attained a degree of insight in one tradition has a degree of insight into the wisdoms of another ... but it is far from as simple as that. Quote:
Is this not the meaning of the message of the Tower of Babel? Quote:
... you might also not know that whilst Catholicism states there will be no further relevation (note: this does not preclude personal relvelation), it also points out that we have yet to fully unpack what has been revealed, and God, in His infinite Wisdom, has so ordered things that what we discover in this Treasury of the Divine is always, and ever, timely ... and will be realised in time, according to God will and His Plan ... what we call oikonomia ... it's unpacking we call theologia. Quote:
This is where apophatic theology comes in, in every tradition, as in the neti-neti of the Vedas, 'not this, not that'. It is my contention that every tradition accesses this abstract, or the Absolute, in its own, unique way. But all agree ... it cannot be seen, it is beyond forms. It is accessed, veertically and interiorly, through its subsequent esoteric and exoteric forms these are its 'presence' in the world. I therefore think that any extra-traditional presentation of the Absolute must necessarily and unavoidably invent its own forms its own esoterica and exoterica, its own orthos and praxis, and in so doing it falls foul of the very thing it tries to circumnavigate, and in a worse way. If a 'Core Wisdom' is presented independent of Revelation, then it rises in the mind of man, and my fear (and my experience) leads me to understand this is a human abstraction, or rather the data of an a priori fallible device its unique data is assumed. The risk is on invention, and there is no objective means of verifying the data that abstraction could be an illusion. Quote:
Quote:
It is in the reasoning why one should assume that any given religion is insufficient is not enough to attain that which it promises that I find unsound and unproven. The Core Wisdom we would say, the Source, the One, is expressed as accurately and effectively as the inexpressible can be expressed, in the apophatic dimension of any tradition. So again I argue that why look elsewhere, why the necessity to posit an abstract, when the reality is already soundly present and supported? Pax, Thomas |
||||||||||||
|
|
|
|
07-16-2007, 12:03 PM
|
#87 (permalink) | |||||||||
|
co-pilgrim
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 751
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Quote:
Intellectual capacity IS a requirement for Salvation. This is something I maintain, out of my own belief ... because the contrary runs counter to all that I hold sacred and dear. It is, for me, absurd - that God would put us here to stupidly blunder our way into Heaven (let alone in one short lifetime). There is ample evidence in the world around us to indicate that this is not so. We must LEARN while we are here, and put all that we learn into practice - ultimately, for the service of God (and our fellowman, these coming together as One in the Innermost). It is not the requirement that each person become a genius, or a great scientist, philosopher or statesman, in the present lifetime. But inevitably and eventually, it is so. This can take us longer, or shorter, depending as we choose. But then, you know good & well that I believe in no such thing as your Roman Catholic ideas of Salvation, Thomas. I cannot believe in a God so incompetent and inept as to flubb things up and accidentally allow a state of things to eventuate whereby great portions of the Human Family might actually perish ... or suffer an eternal torment of hellfire and damnation. Free Will is one thing ... but Solidarity, Brother, Solidarity! Quote:
Quote:
But first ... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
How is my understanding necessarily distant? This is a fallacy in your thinking, Thomas ... an assumption and an incorrect one, if also quite understandable. Just because I do not bow down and pray five times a day facing the Kaaba, does not make me unpious. Just because I may not ever have received the exoteric Christian Sacrament of Baptism, does not mean that I am impure ... either of body, mind or spirit. And just because I am student of comparative religions yet attend no formalized religious services (as Mass, Synagogue, Mosque or Temple) ... does not mean that I am not a member of the Sangha. The mistake here, and one which the Wisdom Religion eschews, is to mistake the form for the Spirit .. to confound Truth with any one of its many outward expressions. Deny that that TRUTH exists inwardly, as the support, lifesource, Spirit - the very raison d'etre - of them ALL ... and you immediately invalidate every outward tradition. This does not lessen the importance of exoteric religion, and notice that I have said nothing about Theosophists or the modern Theosophical Movement here. Ammonius Saccas, living eighteen centuries ago, knew, taught and lived the Ageless Wisdom ... or THEOS SOPHIA - but he did not discover this Wisdom by borrowing or stealing it from the Hindus. Plato, even eight centuries prior, did likewise, as an Initiate into these very Mysteries ... just as St. Paul after him. But none of these great men considered RELIGION ITSELF as more important than the God Who gave it, in all its many forms and functions. It is up to us to honor and receive this gift, respect its origins and Purpose, and put it to good use. And what did the Buddha say to do with the raft, once we have cross the shore? So, do I imply or mean to suggest that I have traveled so far, and attained to so much, that I, like the Arhats, do not need the raft? By no means. But the metaphor applies to each stage of the Path, in a way, and this is something we must tread cyclically, over & over, much as we have incarnated life after life, cyclically. The final set of lifetimes are in many ways - those in which we garner, or harvest, the results of dozens, hundreds, even thousands of lifetimes of sowing. Some of this has been intentional, and yields favorable results, other sowing has been in error, and these are a bitter harvest ... but it is all part of the Learning Experience. It's up to us how soon, how well, and how determinedly we choose to cooperate ... Quote:
But other factors also affect us. There is the Karma of the Lord of the World Himself, which even relates to other Planetary Schemes. Were it not for the Venusian Kumaras, for example (the Greatest of these BEING our Lord of the World ... `Melchizedek,' or the Archangel Michael), Humanity would presently be lucky to have made it to the Neanderthal stage. Probably the greatest of the shortcomings, as you and I are likely to agree, rest not with some presumed karmic imperfection of the Logoi, but with Humanity Itself, both collectively and individually. St. Paul, for example, although he eventually became an Arhat like Jesus before him, did much damage to the early church ... and gave a different impulse to Christ's intended Work, prior to Saul's Conversion, and later spiritual awakenings. The Tibetan Master also speaks of the great failing of the Twelve Apostles, suggesting that NONE of them, save John the Beloved (and later, Paul), were able to truly sense, or intuit their Master's intent. They ultimately failed Him, and the greatest burden of the blame probably rests with them, not with the later errors of the early Church, much less the Roman Catholic ... Quote:
I mean, you have, with one fell swoop, echoed exactly the sentiment of Domine Iesus, with such a statement, Thomas. And this is precisely what ol' Joe Ratzinger is catching so much flak for ... around the WORLD. Here at CR, where the audience, contributors, and lurkers represent a group and a cross-section with greater than average spiritual awareness, religious commitment and philosophical background ... is it any surprise that you are witnessing a shrieking crescendo of near-OUTRAGE - which only you and Joshua are brave enough, and ballsy enough, to either counter ... or seek to soften? Islam, Mormonism, Protestantism, the Baha'i Faith, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, Sikhism, (modern) Theosophy, 20th Century Esotericism, just to name a few of the better-known religions and Revelations from the past 2000 years! ALL of these traditions, ALL of these teachings, are known to their followers as GOD's REVELATION to Humanity. Notwithstanding the differences of terminology (Freemason's require belief in `a Supreme ARCHITECT' - but only a fool would quibble), any ONE of these authentic Revelations is enough to knock the ill-founded and presumptuous Catholic assertion on its proverbial arse! But while I won't babble about having leapt across the Buddha's brook (a raging torrent, actually) ... I will gladly say, that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this nonsense about "no further religious Revelations" is precisely that! While Christ may have come with a Revelation, an Instruction, and a WAY for all of Humanity, 2100 years ago ... so has the same God sent His Prophets, Teachers and Wayshowers, MANY, many a time - in the intervening centuries. To pretend otherwise, is just plain ... damn, I want to say stupid, but I suppose ignorant, vain, or foolheaded would be about what I'm after. I think the only word which might actually apply here, Thomas, is STUBBORN. And I couldn't care less if you did have the Heavenly Genius otherwise overshadowing you ... to even suggest that Divine Revelation has not come to us, since Christ, save for an individual here or there ... man, that's just plain dumb. You're far too smart to actually believe this, even if your Pope does tell you you mustn't question it! Thus, WHY the stubbornness? I don't get it ...  And you say that I'm the one making claims to spiritual superiority, or that I'm supposedly saying that only the Theosophists are in a position to gauge whose Revelation is correct!?! Come now. Let's stop the charade ... who is claiming what!?! (cont'd) |
|||||||||
|
|
|
|
07-16-2007, 01:17 PM
|
#88 (permalink) | ||||
|
From across the Tiber
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,227
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Hi Andrew
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30 Quote:
Which brings this to a close, I think ... as anything subsequently will be ancilliary to that fact, and neither of us is ever going to shift the other. But it has been a pleasure, Andrew, and I'm glad we've managed to 'rewrite the record' (this being an esoteric thread) of our dealings by fairly lengthy exchanges that did not result in us coming to blows! If we can do it, then by golly there's hope for the world yet! Peace be with you, Thomas |
||||
|
|
|
|
07-16-2007, 01:55 PM
|
#89 (permalink) | |
|
co-pilgrim
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 751
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Quote:
At best, we can think ABOUT them, or perhaps IMAGINE them ... is that it? These aren't your words, Thomas, so show me how I've misinterpreted! I will affirm precisely the opposite. I will say, and I do say, that there is NOTHING, NO THING, which you or I can set our eyes upon ... which IS NOT GOD'S. And I mean that most literally. If every single atom of substance belongs to God, including those which compose our bodies, emotional bodies, minds and Souls ... then quite literally, there is NO THING which "is not God." God cannot be defined (as you will be so quick and keen to point out - LEAPING like a frog out of a box to make the assertion) simply by imagining or conceiving ALL SUBSTANCE, because "the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts." True, quite true. And all this is equally true of energy, of Spirit, or of LIFE Itself. But this is where, if you insist that somehow, the Christian Revelation is unique, and quite different than say, the Hindu one ... then just between you and me, I will be forced to make the admission. That which means much more to me, however, will in the last analysis be the Hindu ... or the doctrine of Hylozoism, panpsychism. I simply cannot accept as ultimately meaningful, significant or relevant, the notion of the clockmaker god, standing above and aloof from His Creation. I will affirm an ABSOLUTE, about which there can be NO profitable speculation whatsoever ... and use the METAPHOR of sleep (Mahapralaya) for the period of NON-manifestation of said Absolute (from OUR point of view, of course!). I can then find it completely acceptable that DURING (Duration being a key aspect of the Ageless Wisdom teachings) the period of manifestation of a Kosmos or Universe (Mahamanvantara), there exists a Godhead, a Trinity - Three in One. And the terminology, from there, matters not. I say tomato, you say tomahto. It's a red, juicy fruit, often found in salads, varying in texture, size, appearance and taste. But for the tomato, an archetype exists. And THAT'S what Plato was onto (okay, "onto" being an understatement!) ... What is the Soul? It is Augeiodes: The most substantial difference consisted in the location of the immortal or divine spirit of man. While the ancient Neoplatonists held that the Augoeides never descends hypostatically into the living man, but only more or less sheds its radiance on the inner man the astral soul the Kabalists of the Middle Ages maintained that the spirit, detaching itself from the ocean of light and spirit, entered into man's soul, where it remained through life imprisoned in the astral capsule. This difference was the result of the belief of Christian Kabalists, more or less, in the dead letter of the allegory of the fall of man. (H.P. Blavatsky)And it can be defined in plenty of other ways. But you see, here I will feel more at home to agree with the Neoplatonists, while you will perhaps side with the Kabalists. Your experiences may tell you that your interpretation is "the correct one," yet I can contest your belief - and will gladly do so, from my own experiences, understanding and insights. Who is right, at the end of the day? I may not be certain, yet if I do not feel that my own understanding is more likely the correct one, I will not find it profitable or prudent to (philosophically) argue the point. The Soul of the esoteric teachings which I have studied, is literally incarnate, yet NOT in the man of the flesh, nor in the man of the astral-emotional plane, or even within the realm of lower mind. The Soul, though having taken what equates, for us, to A PHYSICAL FORM ... has done so from the point of view of Atma, Buddhi and Manas, these being ITS Triadal Self (as ours likewise exists, on a lower turn of the material and spiritual spiral), and it uses the `Causal envelope' (Karana-upadhi, Karana Sarira ... Augoeides) for its vehicle of manifestation in the world of Higher Mind. All of this seems, and is, a divergence, but it provides the framework for my assertion that, Thomas, man literally MEETS with God ... not so much in the outer, material worlds of body, emotion and mortal mind - but in the Interior Worlds of Higher Mind, Spiritual Intuition (Buddhi), and Power, Peace or Spirit (Atma). It is not that we cannot experience the Divine, here and now, within the physical world ... as we witness the wind, blowing in the trees ... see a flock of birds, flying over a lake ... or stroll through a well-tended garden, and witness a myriad variety of beautiful, blooming flowers. Nor can we assume that that very fullness of the Majest of Godhead is not present, right before our very eyes. I am saying - that it is so! But I will also be willing to be, that neither you, nor I, can necessarily and AT WILL experience it ... in the wink of an eye, as it were. The Master of the Wisdom, because he has united his lesser self with the Greater, can do this ... and as easily as you or I can redirect our attention from a flower in the foreground to a mighty oak off in the distance, the Master can turn his consciousness inward, and access the world of Higher Mind (wherein all thought, all ideas, and Ideation Itself, are as an OPEN BOOK). Plato's World of Forms, to him, is as objective as your stamp collection, or butterfly collection would be, spread out upon a well-illumined table. More than that, his natural state of consciousness, even while walking about, within the apparent body of flesh and blood, resides within or beyond the world of Buddhi, of Spiritual Intuition. There, he knows the Unity which transcends the "you and I, us and them" - ego consciousness, and he is also aware of the Divine Life which pulses throughout all of Creation as the blood which animates our entire body, yet moves freely throughout ... vitalizing and energizing it. The Master IS this Unity; it is (a part of) his very Self. A Master, above all this, abides eternally within the Peace which Passseth Understanding, and there is NOUGHT which can disturb his calm. He knows, quite well, that His Spirit is one with YOUR Spirit, and with My Spirit, and with ALL Spirit ... because He is Spirit. And if you think - because you have not understood - that somehow this attainment has caused him to LOSE something (that he needs) ... then I encourage you to ASK Him. ASK him - what it was, He had to be MORE than willing to lay down. Ask him what he found it necessary to forever part with, ere he became Master. What was it, which he gladly - though with great difficulty - SET ASIDE ... in order to attain to the Oneness, which is Eternally His. The word Kumara ... is from the Sanskrit [from ku with difficulty + mara mortal], meaning `Mortal with difficulty.' They are defined philosophically as: "pure spiritual beings, unself-conscious god-sparks uninvolved with matter who, destined by evolution to pass through the realms of matter, become mortal, i.e., material, only with difficulty because of their lofty spirituality" (Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary, Ke-Kz, Theosophical U Press)One group, a lesser of these, are our Souls ... or so I have learned. Does this Soul lose a part of itself, does it forget? Or does it not lend a hand, incarnate - just we do - in the worlds "in between" (Higher Mind, the `anchor' for Atma, Buddhi, Manas) ... and from there, gently fan into flame the Higher Spiritual Principles which are the true, Inner Man? And, when once Transfigured, a man has become able to stand on the Mountaintop alone, unaided ... and see the even-as-yet DISTANT Spiritual Goal which shines the Light for us all, calling to us with Love Eternal ... does the Soul not, finally and at long last, Itself depart - and continue on It's own Way of Higher (much Higher) evolution? Having left the man to stand, is he not asked "to lay down his very LIFE for his friends?" If only it were understood what this entails ... for no words can convey the nature of this sacrifice, the yielding up of the `pearl of great price.' Such is the Wisdom Teaching, in plain-english terminology, borrowing only where we as yet lack an English equivalent! SOUL is the term now used by most students, rather than Agnishvatta, Manasaputra, Pitri, Kumara, Amesha-spenta, Dhyani, Elohim, and so forth. You complain, Thomas (as did Francis, and BananaBrain), when some of us borrow the Sanskrit, or ancient Greek terminology, or dare to suggest that `Elohim' has the meaning I have provided (as one of its many, valid definitions). Yet you issue the challenge to SHOW that there actually existed a single Wisdom Tradition, present within EVERY exoteric religious system alike. But this is EXACTLY what I attempt to do, treading lightly in the footsteps of students who have gone before me ... and well aware that I have not always their adeptness or adroitness. I can but TRY ... and so, to return to my point: A middle ground, so to speak, is what I have been describing. One does not need to be a Master, or an Arhat, to experience something of, or within, these Interior worlds ... where Spirit dominates the form, and where Inspiration, Illumination, are the normal operating `modes' of our Higher Consciousness. This is where the Soul is at home, yet not sitting around, rapping its proverbial fingers on the table, waiting for us to turn our attention inward, and Heavenward. The Soul lives a life of which we know nothing, and is also pursuing its own evolution ... even while it has voluntarily accepted the AGELONG post of overshadowing us, thorughout or series of incarnations - almost as a loving master sees to the needs of a beloved pet. This is a poor comparison, but if we could envision the most Ideal of owners, then this ... is what our Soul is like, for we shall never be abandoned, and there is NO crime, no error, no sin so grievous that the Soul would forsake us, and leave its post. Christ came and spoke as the Soul of all Humanity (embodied in one Man), and it is no surprise that only a truly select few could understand Him - because only these few were anywhere near the point in their evolution where His teachings could make sense. Does that mean all the rest of us were dolts, and that He had nothing to say to us? DEAR GOD NO! PLEASE stop stuffing these words down my throat ... The Torah, the exoteric presentation, EVEN THAT WHICH WOULD SAVE OUR PLANET, and advance us light years toward the Divine Purpose ... THIS we have not even heeded, as G.K. Chesterton, Gandhiji, and others, have so aptly spoken. But what of the Mysteries of Being, even the Lesser or least of these? I could just cry, to hear someone say, "These do not exist, save what Christ spoke to the masses." This does not just show ignorance, it shows hopelessness. It shows a kind of despair which has sapped away our very knowledge of WHO WE ALL ARE. And it cannot be objected that this is a knowledge we have never truly possessed. We DO have this awareness, even now, and we HAVE been told how to access it ... and many people are doing just that. If the Celestine Prophecy does not float your boat, then enquire within and find out about Freemasonry ... Ask one to be one. There are Rosicrucians, Baha'is, Unitarian Universalists, Theosophists, Unity Churches, Mormons, Tantric Buddhists, Tibetan Buddhists, Mandaeans, Zoroastrians, Valentinians, Anthroposophists, Ophites, Kabbalists, Pythagoreans, modern-day Gnostics of every flock and flavor ... ... and what we're finding, more and more, is that most of the people belonging to these traditions are quite willing to come together, sit down at the table, and look at what's shared in common between their various spiritualities. Obviously, if the Freemasons wanted to be Buddhists, they'd just go up and convert! And if the Zoroastrians felt more comfortable as Mormons, they wouldn't bother to be Zoroastrians!!! If a given person's chosen tradition, or belief system, is meeting the need for them, at this time ... and especially if it's also helping other people in their life via the ripple effect ... then we ought not knock that person's religion, or spiritual path, or way of believing. If it's the Pope, and he's making a general fool of himself, and worse still - infuriating non-Catholics worldwide (and probably a good number of Catholics, too!) ... then he deserves the criticism he gets - and I sure WISH he could be impeached, though we see how effective that idea works in American politics .I think time will tell on us, what idiots we were, for allowing all this nonsense to take place ... and while we look, today, on the Dark ages as just that - a blot on the collective human consciousness and otherwise spirit of Progress - a brighter day is yet to come when, if we survive this crisis, our future progeny will wonder, How did they EVER put up with such crap (much less believe it)? Oh Dark Aaaaages ... |
|
|
|
|
|
07-16-2007, 02:57 PM
|
#90 (permalink) | |||||
|
co-pilgrim
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 751
|
Re: Esoterism and esoterica
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, Thomas, he did NOT say that. Nor anything close. It is just, plain SCARY that this is what words, what message, have been stuffed in Christ's mouth. THAT is what I meant by an opiate for the masses. Faith is one thing; sloth is another. Quote:
Quote:
Not just you and I, look around. You are in a bit more of a northern latitude, but you are as close to the conflict as I am, every bit. And every bit as well part of it, I dare say. This is not about whether or not you or I might pick up a sword (or a rifle), it's about those who do, and why. Is this just a simple thread about esotericism, or was it not about the much deeper, much more important idea that ALL MEN ARE BROTHERS? I would gladly die for the Ideal of Brotherhood in which I believe, though I've no wish to be a martyr ... and I know I'm almost certain not to have to (as far as the conflict in Iraq goes). Would you die for the same Ideal? Define it. Upon what is it based? You may think I've confused you with the other Catholic here at CR. But I haven't. I just think you may not see that spiritual elitisim, religious chauvinism, is the very thing I oppose. (And whatever HPB may have said, modern day Theosophists have no Domine Iesus. The RCC, however, DOES. And you seem to be digging in your proverbial heels. )As Christ is known to have said, Satan cannot cast out Satan. This means I cannot defeat my enemy, at present. I can excise my hand, or my arm, even a leg, if it offends me ... but a body, divided against itself, cannot stand. I will mutilate myself, if I do not take another approach. What is that approach. By what authority CAN I "cast out Satan?" This has been my point ALL ALONG. And I think you've yet to understand it. You want me to believe, or somehow agree with you, that only through Catholicism - can I find the same Christ as you have. And that's just plain dead wrong, Thomas. It's disengenuous, and rather underhanded. You aren't here to talk about YOUR spiritual or religious experiences, you are here to tell me that MINE (or those of anyone likeminded) are not authentic, accurate, legimate, or otherwise - `valid.' And I'm here to tell you, you're dead, flat wrong. So, when you can walk up to me, pull up a chair, sit down BESIDE me here at the table, look out at the world from the same side of life as I live on ... then I think you might be surprised - at just how much we can actually agree on, without compromising our own spiritual vows or views, traditions, backgrounds, loyalties, allegiances, and so forth. Friend, I don't know how I've known you, or if I've known you, before. It's a big world, 60 billion souls, and it's quite possible that we've never crossed paths, till now. I really can't see into it these days as I once could, and it usually requires vis a vis anyway, often getting to know someone on a personal level, before such insights come to me. But I'll tell you one thing, when they do, I know that the person I'm with (in such situations) is a `friend of old,' regardless of what karma may have developed or stacked up between us since. Karma that we heap upon each other now, will only be there in the future ... waiting, as it always does, for us to resolve it. We might just wish it would go away, but that's how it is with people sometimes - we confuse the issue with the person, or allow specific beliefs (opinions, viewpoints, etc.) to get in the way, and muck things up. Pretty soon, a man is an actual enemy, though we're not quite sure where, along the way, this occurred. But it doesn't matter, because an enemy has his own friends, and family, followers of the same tradition, and so on ... until the zealotry would have us go to war over it - and I'm not speaking of some kind of silly clan rivalry here. I mean all out jihad ... and the determination to SEND YOU to your maker, and all of that nonsense ... ... except I wouldn't exactly say it's nonsense, because right now people are dying by the thousands for just such "ideals" as these. They're hardly "spiritual" ideals, yet it will almost all be done in the name of religion, and for the glory of God, even as it was 1000 years ago, and long, long before that. I can't remember an incarnation anywhere near the British Isles, but what I have suspected, even if I can't validate it, is that somewhere in there while I was galloping around decapitating Saracens ... wearing out the highways between the Holy Land and France - maybe, just maybe, the two of us were acquaintances. If so, I have to wonder, would you have been a Templar, on horseback ... or would you have been, more likely, a servant of the Holy See, as now? I know you were no Saracen, and as they say, history repeats itself! I'm just rambling now, but I have long wondered about such things, and have often asked myself, "what does it matter, what Thomas thinks!" What does it matter, indeed. Worth a read, these little tractates of Bishop Leadbeater like `Thoughtforms,' and such contributions of Annie Besant's as `Esoteric Christianity.' See, someday, what an outspoken Fabian feminist, India's national heroine and a former staunch atheist had to say ... about the historical, the mythic, the Mystic Christ. I feel disheartened only to the extent that maybe you would truly be open to the evidence, if just the right set of it were put before you, or if perhaps, something I might have said could have been done so, in just such a way as to evoke a different reaction ... ... and if, for all that, the error is solely mine, then I lament that I did not get it right. I know all too well of my own failings, and I own them, even over-own them, but I really haven't looked at our dialogue in this way, and have resisted even that possibility. Most often, I have had the impression that you really don't want to be convinced, and I think it's been quite evident that very little I could have said might possibly evoke sympathetic understanding. It does, actually, make me feel like a bit of a fool, because I know quite well that this is not at all what the Masters would want, it is not the method in which they, or their more effective disiciples choose to work, and in fact, it is really a lot more like two schoolyard braggards playing the familiar game of one-upmanship, in which there can never be a resolution ... just the ourobouros, forever chasing its own tail. I think I've chased my tail for long enough, so I'm pretty much with you, at this point ... and though I'm disappointed that we didn't find the common ground we were seeking, that may just be because it really wasn't possible. I dunno, if it wasn't, then this will not always be the case. I need as much convincing as you do; that's part of the problem. I'm not trying to save face, just being candid. I'm going to post again, with an excerpt from Torkom Saraydarian, because it addresses the doctrine of Avatars ... and what kind of challenges the Hierarchy continues to face. Either we're for Christ, or against Him ... this is ever, and increasingly so. Like the Knight in Indiana Jones advised, Choose Wisely ... |
|||||
|
|
|
|
«
Thomas Merton
|
Double Talk
»
| Thread Tools | |
| Rate This Thread | |
|
|
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:44 AM.