Esoterism and esoterica

[AndrewX]

An excerpt from Christ: The Avatar of Sacrifical Love, by Torkom Saraydarian:

It is amazing to notice that all the Great Ones who visited the earth gave the same message, according to the level of the people and the conditions of life.

We see a very close similarity in Their language of symbolism, the major life events through which They passed, and even similarities in Their births, struggles, services, deaths and victories.

In the history of world religion you can find the names of the Great Ones and parts of Their message are scattered throughout the pages of tradition, from east to west, from north to south, in all ages.

Most of Them were born at the winter solstice of virgin mothers who were endowed with great virtue, wisdom and power.

Each time They appeared, They came to meet a human need. In the Bhagavad Gita we are told that They appared "whenever men became indifferent toward their duties and resonsibilities, and whenever unrighteousness and disorder increased ... to protect the virtuous, to destroy the wicked, and to re-establish the sense of duty and responsibility."

We see in all ages that the message of the great Teachers gradually loses its true note, and it is eventually used for human vanities.

We are told that every time a great Teacher came to the world, He faced dark crystallizations and wide degeneration of the Teaching and His main task came to be, with real fearlessness, to stress the simplicity and the beauty of the Teaching.

When crystallization and degeneration occur in the Teaching they create the worst enemies of the new Teaching or of the new revelation of the original Teaching, with new age appraoches.

The new Teaching immediately mobilizes its enemies, who fight against it until it loses its original purity and starts to crystallize. Immediately after such a crystallization, the persecution starts and the Teaching serves to increase the vanities of the so-called teachers, who acquire great wealth, high positions, authorities, dogmas and doctrines.

Although this continues age aftger age, it does not mean that the Teaching has failed. Every time it hits the shores of human consciousness, it draws to itself awakened Sons of Light, initiating them into simplicity, beauty and fearlessness. Thus, one by one, here and there, dedicated souls enter into the Holy Place, and join the Hierarchy of Light.

At the time Jesus was born, conditions in the civilized world were at their worst. The Teaching, the mystery religions, were crystallized, and they were being used to exploit the poor and the innocent. The political field was full of corruption and the morals of the majority were very low. Man was seeking only physical and emotional satisfaction through the misuse of energy, power and authority.

The program for humanity was in danger. Advanced souls cannot reincarnate and hold positions in a world where corruption and crime prevail and where the teachers are dominated by low urges and drives. Whenever the birth of such souls is prevented, the progress of humanity slows down and for the time being stops.

In those rare cases where advanced Souls have been born, they find insurmountable difficulties on their paths, and eventually they find themselves under the command of the forces of materialism, selfishness and fear. Only Chosen Ones who have the shield of Hierarchy can survive and shed Their light notwithstanding adverse conditions and the attacks by the dark forces.

We are told that "the civilized world, at that time, was plunged into an indescribable orgy of immorality, treachery and wickedness.

Selfishness, egoism and animalism reigned supreme ... The life of average humanity was so evil that almost the entire period of the after-death state was spent in the purgatorial regions with little or no time for the heaven-world experience. Human evolution had come almost to a standstill.

Herod, the Great, died in 4 B.C., and was succeeded by his son, Herod Antipas ... He attmpted extermination of all things that were virtuous and holy. The spiritual life of the world was at low ebb." (The New Age Bible Interpretation, Corinne Heline, pp.28-29)

It was under such conditions that Jesus was sent to be the vehicle of a great Spirit and Light to protect the Teaching of the Hierarchy and the Path of Salvation to humanity.

And that Path is still protected, still guarded, even to this day ... while also being open to more of Humanity than every before.

The Master R. indicates this in the book Creative Thinking, saying:

To the initiate consciousness, transmutation is the redepemption of substance, the conversion of a solid form into a body of stable, fluidic energy that is responsive to the will of the soul.

Transmutation is accomplished when that divine note of harmony inherent within love is applied to the lower frequences of the form. That note strikes the true note of the form, calling forth from its many parts an harmonic response. Thus, the form is tuned, so to speak, its many parts one to another, and its total to the Divine Purpose for which it was created.

The foregoing presupposes a technique that can be applied only the initiate, or the applicant to initiation, after a certain degree of attainment is reached, and this was once the law. Now, however (as the evolutionary process is speeded up and as humanity as a whole enters a new realm of approach and response), such techniques can be stepped down for use by anyone whose right motivation attracts the new presentation of the Wisdom into his or her awareness. Thus, those who read and apply this series of instruction, regardless of the degree of previous development, may successfully use techniques that were once reserved for the more advanced applicants to initiation. Such is the evolution and the present evolutionary moment of opportunity within which humanity lives today.

One quotation, taken from the student of a Tibetan Master, an Adept writing in the 1920s, 30s and 40s ... the student writing - in 1974 - under that aura of inspiration, and aegis of protection. Another student, writing as amanuensis for one of the highest ranking Masters of the Hierarchy, the Christ's great Brother, the Lord of Civilization ... and indicating changes and progress within our Planetary Life affecting all of Humanity, and affording us an opporunity to Serve the Plan which has not hitherto been available, save to Initiates of a certain degree.

And yet, One Wisdom, just in two of its relatively-recent, modern Presentations.

I doubt very seriously that Master DK and Master R play ego games about whose presentation is better, clearer, more rooted in such & such a tradition, or more direct a path to Enlightenment. That would be nonsense!

But even student of the Ageless Wisdom know that there are different presentations, for students of different temperaments, with different astrological influences, Ray makeup, and varying level of spiritual background or awareness.

This is a mirror of the differences between exoteric religions, precisely the same benevolent presentation of a Loving God to His Children, of the needs for our walking of the Spiritual Path, and for the living of the Spiritual Life.

As above, so below; as within, so without.

NAMASKAR

[InLove]

Hi Nick. Once again I apologize for my delayed responses. (I shouid maybe just start heading all of my posts with these words, as it does seem to be a growing characteristic of mine these days.)

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

The difference between religion and philosophy is actually a fascinating discussion. Maybe we can pick up on it in another thread.

I might enjoy reading the various comments on a thread of this nature. I have decided to cut down on initiating new threads because my offline existence must take precedence right now, and this interferes with my ability to maintain them properly. But if you ever want to do so, I would look forward to participating when possible.

I have always been certain of astral existence. I guess just never with capital letters. (What is it with me and capitalization?) To me, the word “higher” tends to paint a mental picture of maps and charts and even Dante’s Divine Comedy. When I say this, I am not ridiculing Theosophical terminology, please understand. I love maps and sometimes even charts, and I know that Biblical literature employs the suggestion of higher domains. I just don’t necessarily think that astral experiences are all traveled in such confines. It draws a picture in my mind’s eye of something like a flat Earth. However, I can understand how the approach is helpful to many people of various religious backgrounds.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

I believe Christianity believes in ghosts and lost souls (Theosophy does too), and these souls are said to be literally wandering about on the Astral Plane.

Christianity certainly ascribes to the spiritual existence. “Ghosts and lost souls” sounds a bit foreign to my way of thinking, but again, I know that some versions of the Bible, as well as many Christians do use this terminology.

Also, may I ask you to elaborate on what you mean when you say that these souls are “wandering about” there? I would assume you mean that they are searching for their way to a spiritual “home”? I’m sorry I keep putting words in parentheses, but I am obviously struggling with Theosophical language. I appreciate your patience with me in this area, and as both Thomas and Andrew can testify, it isn’t just Theosophical terminology with which I wrestle—there are Christian phrases and Buddhist words and Islamic, Hindi, Jewish,…the list is a long one!

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

However, the Astral Plane is seen as only the tip of the iceberg. We say there is something called the Mental Plane above the Astral Plane, with its own set of residents. On and on it goes, Plane above Plane, with "souls" residing on each Plane. It is these souls we refer to as "beings of higher consciousness". (Actually, this fits in with Christianity, as Christianity talks about Seraphim, Cherebum (sp), angels, archangels, etc. It is just that Theosophy is a lot more specifc about defining who is who and where they are.) This, then, is the answer to your question: "Beings of higher consciousness" are the angels, archangels, etc, although Theosphy's list is much longer and more complicated than Christianity's list.

Maybe, as you said, you have just answered my question. Honestly, I should study up on angels. While I am certain of the existence of angels, the description of heirarchical structure has always been kind of confusing to me. I guess I have a hard time with linear thinking. And if Theosophy’s list is much longer and more complicated that Christianity’s, I may get a bit bogged down.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

I think having empathy is a good thing. I am sure you will make a good Guardian Angel. (Are you ready...?)

Guardian angel sounds good. There are actually lots of things I would like to do. I am not sure how all that works, but I tend to think that the possiblities are endless. Am I ready? In many ways, yes. In some ways, no. But I am where and how I am for a reason, and that is what matters the most to me, whether I am fully aware of that reason or not. I will understand it all at some point, just as I may have before.<---


InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove, You said,

"I have always been certain of astral existence."

--> I am glad to see we have this idea in common.

"To me, the word “higher” tends to paint a mental picture of maps and charts and even Dante’s Divine Comedy."

--> Theosophy agrees with Dante in the idea of various levels, although the levels we draw are different than Dante's. Just to give you an idea of where Theosophy is coming from, Theosophy sees a Heaven, then a level even higher level than Heaven, then another even higher level, etc., etc., going on seemingly into infinity.

"When I say this, I am not ridiculing Theosophical terminology, please understand.

--> I do not perceive it as ridicule.

"I know that Biblical literature employs the suggestion of higher domains."

--> I am glad to hear we also have this in common.

"It draws a picture in my mind’s eye of something like a flat Earth."

--> The Theosophical "picture" is different, We see these various levels as concentric, inter-penetrating spheres, all centered on the center of the Earth. You may be interested to hear that some Theosophists (myself included) believe Hell really is subterranean, and Heaven really is geographically above us (in the outer edges of one of those concentric spheres I just mentioned.) It is based on the idea of specific gravity, and it makes perfect sense to me.

"I would assume you mean that they are searching for their way to a spiritual “home”?"

--> Yes.

"I’m sorry I keep putting words in parentheses, but I am obviously struggling with Theosophical language."

--> Feel free to ask for clarifiations. The more the better.

"I appreciate your patience with me in this area...."

--> My years as a Buddhist taught me to value patience.

"...it isn’t just Theosophical terminology with which I wrestle—there are Christian phrases and Buddhist words and Islamic, Hindi, Jewish,…the list is a long one!"

--> Theosophy has the same problem. I am presently putting together an exhaustive list of equivalent terms.

"Honestly, I should study up on angels."

--> I will be curious as to what you come up with. Fortunately for you, your list of angels is a lot less complicated than my list of Buddhas.

"And if Theosophy’s list is much longer and more complicated that Christianity’s, I may get a bit bogged down."

--> Just take it one step at a time.

"Guardian angel sounds good. There are actually lots of things I would like to do."

--> Give me a list of, say, ten.

"I am not sure how all that works, but I tend to think that the possiblities are endless."

--> I am surprised how many people never sit down and think of what they will specifically doing at the next level. (I hope everyone is not planning on sitting on clouds and playing harps for the next 311 trillion years...) I imagine the vast majority of us will end up as guardian angels at the next level, so I am curious as to what you will come up with.


I want to mention the Theosophical idea that Heaven will be a place of rest, while Nirvana will be a place of great activity. (Most people, especially Christians, have never considered such an idea before.)

"Am I ready? In many ways, yes. In some ways, no."

--> I am sure you will do just fine. I want you to go watch the movie "It's a Beautful Life" and imagine you are Clarence!

"But I am where and how I am for a reason, and that is what matters the most to me, whether I am fully aware of that reason or not."

--> I remember getting answers to these questions from a psychic (and being surprised how accurate the answers were.). Maybe someday you will get your answers.

"I will understand it all at some point, just as I may have before...."

--> Of this I have no doubt.

[InLove]

Thanks for your post, Nick.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

The Theosophical "picture" is different, We see these various levels as concentric, inter-penetrating spheres, all centered on the center of the Earth.

The concept of spheres is a much easier way for me to relate than the more linear view. I must admit, though, I do not necessarily see them as converging at the center of the Earth. I may be mistaken, but doesn't Theosophy hold forth the possibility of intelligent life on other planets? If so, how does the above concept tie in with this?

You may be interested to hear that some Theosophists (myself included) believe Hell really is subterranean, and Heaven really is geographically above us (in the outer edges of one of those concentric spheres I just mentioned.) It is based on the idea of specific gravity, and it makes perfect sense to me.

Specific gravity is also an easy idea for me to grasp (that is, without all the algebraic equations.) I mean, it is self-evident, physically speaking. So do you believe that there will be souls actually living in Hell at the center of the Earth in endless torture? This does not seem to be in line with what I have read in your posts. Forgive me, if I have seen your answer to this somewhere before, but if I have, I have forgotten what you wrote. (Not a reflection on your writng, but on my memory!) Would you mind addressing it again?

My years as a Buddhist taught me to value patience.

I very quietly study certain concepts from Buddhism (as well as Hinduism), and while I am not well-versed in the "nomenclature", they have become part of my daily spiritual life. Many more people than not, both Christians and Buddhists, have declared to me that this is impossible, but I know better. It may sound strange, but it is where Christ has led me. I don't talk much about it at this point simply because I don't know how. But like I said before, I am where and how I am for a purpose, so I accept this and keep mostly silent out of respect for the convictions of others. (And I would like to add that Christianity has also played a big part in its own right toward my understanding and appreciation of the virtues of being patient.)

Really? Okay, and it is something I have thought quite a bit about lately...

1. I just thought of this yesterday--nothing big, just always thought I'd live long enough to see my hair turn all white. I always thought I'd like that, so maybe in some dimension, somewhere, for some reason, it will. Not really all that important, but just a thought I had.

2. I'd like to make life easier for other people. I try to do that now, and sometimes I succeed. But I'd like to feed the hungry, rescue the children, set political prisoners free, assist those who suffer from physical pain or mental anguish....haha--I want to do all of those things....

3. I'd like to see my loved ones again in a place where we never need separate again. I know this place exists, and I believe that some, and maybe all of them may already know this existence. Maybe I am already there with them, but I just have not literally seen it yet.

4. I'd like to have an eternal place where I can create good things through music, art, poetry, etc., without always feeling a sense of time being "too short". I have always said that there are no deadlines in "Heaven".

5, I'm going to borrow from path_of_one here for a moment. Somewhere she wrote something along the lines of 'I'd like to be the wind, because the wind travels where it will, but I'd like to have a choice, too. After all, how can I enjoy feeling the wind if I am the wind?' I know this is not exactly what she said, but I don't know where that post was. I have always meant to respond to it, though, because it did resonate so completely with me.

I know you asked me to list ten things, but it is late and I am tired regardless of the hour these days, so I know you will understand if I stop at these I have listed. I could go on forever, anyway.

I want to mention the Theosophical idea that Heaven will be a place of rest, while Nirvana will be a place of great activity. (Most people, especially Christians, have never considered such an idea before.)

Do you think of Heaven as something like Paradise? Or more along the lines of Purgatory? Something else entirely? (As far as how most people, especially Christians, look at these ideas, I guess I like to give them credit for thinking about things like this, even if they do not always vocalize these thoughts. I know this is true for me, so how can I say that it is not the same for others?)

I am sure you will do just fine. I want you to go watch the movie "It's a Beautful Life" and imagine you are Clarence!

I'm sure you mean "It's a Wonderful Life" with Jimmy Stewart and company? I love Clarence--I wonder, when you got your pilot's license, did you think of Clarence? I sure hope my hearing gets a bit better by then, in fact I am counting on it--haha--ever since the chemotherapy treatments, I have "ringing in my ears" due to the side effects. But so far, I have sprouted no wings! Seriously, though, many people believe that we will not be angels, as angels are supposedly of an entirely different spiritual substance. I'm curious as to how Theosophy treats this question.

I am glad you found what you were looking for, Nick. I, too, have already received many answers, but there will be more to come.

InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove, You said,

"I may be mistaken, but doesn't Theosophy hold forth the possibility of intelligent life on other planets? If so, how does the above concept tie in with this?"

--> They tie in nicely. There are other "creation stories", in that entirely different human-like races exist in other places. However, our "creation story" here on Earth is a separate organization. 99% of Theosophical teachings only deal with conditions here on Earth.

"So do you believe that there will be souls actually living in Hell at the center of the Earth in endless torture?"

--> You are using the word "endless". Why? Theosophy teaches that nothing is endless. Even people in Hell can/will eventually reach Nirvana. This is the beauty of Theosophical teachings.

"I very quietly study certain concepts from Buddhism (as well as Hinduism), and while I am not well-versed in the "nomenclature", they have become part of my daily spiritual life."

--> That is very Theosophical of you! One of the reasons Theosophy was created was to show that all religions come from a single source. I believe that the deeper you dig, the more commonality you will find between the religions. Theosophy spends a great deal of time showing commonality between the teachings of the different religions.

"Many more people than not, both Christians and Buddhists, have declared to me that this is impossible, but I know better."

--> This is the very message of Theosophy.

"I am where and how I am for a purpose, so I accept this and keep mostly silent out of respect for the convictions of others."

--> This is a core Theosophical teaching.

"...I'd like to feed the hungry, rescue the children, set political prisoners free, assist those who suffer from physical pain or mental anguish...."

--> This is exactly what your Guardian-Angel-ship will allow you to do. Although I believe Guardian Angels work more on the astral plane than on the physical plane.

"I'd like to see my loved ones again in a place where we never need separate again."

--> This is a key Theosophical teaching. According to Theosophy, Heaven is one big illusion. Within that illusion, you will all of your loved ones. You will also see them in Nirvana, but the conditions there are quite different.

"I'd like to have an eternal place where I can create good things through music, art, poetry, etc., without always feeling a sense of time being "too short". I have always said that there are no deadlines in "Heaven".

--> Heaven deadlines, yes. Nirvana deadlines, no. Earthly life has been described as being on a field trip, and Heaven is then the time we spend going over the data. Once we have finished going over the data, it is time for another "field trip".

"...I'd like to be the wind, because the wind travels where it will, but I'd like to have a choice, too."

--> This is similar to the Nirvanic condition of the removal of the sense of separateness. Here in the physical world, I cannot understand what it means for you to be you. In Nirvana, all separation stops, so I will become you. Also, I will become one with every other entitiy in the universe. One way of understanding this is, all we will have to do is think of a person or a place, and we will immediately be there. This sounds better than being the wind!

"Do you think of Heaven as something like Paradise?"

--> Yes.

"Or more along the lines of Purgatory?"

--> Purgatory is completely different. Actually, I do not think of Hell, Purgatory, and Hell as separate places. It is more like, all of these are part of one continuous sliding scale. The further up the scale, the more blissful the experience.

"I know this is true for me, so how can I say that it is not the same for others?"

--> Heaven has been desribed as mainly an illusion. If you expect to see Jesus, you will see Jesus. If you expect to see Buddha, you will see Buddha. I was told, it will be an illusion, so make it a good one!

"...when you got your pilot's license, did you think of Clarence?"


--> No, I thought about flying to another island. (I got my license in Hawaii.)

"But so far, I have sprouted no wings!"

--> Uh..., no witches broom, neither? (ha)

"...many people believe that we will not be angels, as angels are supposedly of an entirely different spiritual substance. I'm curious as to how Theosophy treats this question."

--> I am not sure what you are tallking about. Can you be more specific?

"I, too, have already received many answers, but there will be more to come."

--> The best is yet to come.

[InLove]

Nick, it sounds to me like we do actually hold many hopes or beliefs in common. But then, I knew this, anyway. I do look for commonalities wherever I can find them. The reason I focus on differences sometimes is because some of them catch my eye, and either curiousity or concern prompts me to ask questions.

So I am still curious about how Theosophy treats the concept of Hell. I think you are saying that Hell is a literal, physical place deep in the earth, which coincides, if I'm not mistaken, with certain conservative Christian literalist views. But you believe this Hell is temporary? Do you believe that these souls are tortured, and how so?

I'd like to be more specific, but I don't really understand it myself. I'll try and do some research. I have seen conversations here in C-R about this, but I don't remember where they were. In the meantime, maybe someone who knows more about the subject will be compelled to add some thoughts.

The best is yet to come.

I'm counting on it.

InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove, you said,

"I do look for commonalities wherever I can find them."

--> I am curious as to which religions you belonged to, in your various past lifetimes. Your interest in religious pluralism makes me wonder where you got such interest. (If you had been a Christian in all of your past lives, I believe you would not have such an interest today.) No doubt you have had many reincarnations in various religions, so now you wish to bring them together.

"The reason I focus on differences sometimes is because some of them catch my eye, and either curiousity or concern prompts me to ask questions."

--> I wonder if you sometimes run across a Hindu or Buddhist dogma that you followed blindly in a previous life, only to finally have a chance today to set the record straight.

"But you believe this Hell is temporary?"

--> I do. There is no reason to believe it is eternal. (I am not a follower of the Christian "eternal" doctrine, a doctrine which makes no sense to me.)

"Do you believe that these souls are tortured, and how so?"

--> The way you have phrased your question, you make it sound like these people are perhaps being tortured by an angry God. Theosophy does not see it that way. Hell is a set of conditions they have created themselves, and they are merely living out the conditions they have put into motion.

"So I am still curious about how Theosophy treats the concept of Hell. I think you are saying that Hell is a literal, physical place deep in the earth, which coincides, if I'm not mistaken, with certain conservative Christian literalist views."

--> I do. A. P. Sinnet, in his book In The Next World, has listed specific characteristics for each of the seven astral sub-planes. Here are my comments on Sinnet's descriptions of Level Five (the second level from the bottom).

~~ Level 5 ~~
Level 5 is a place of varied discomfort. It is a place where the newly-dead must come to terms with being entangled with undesirable thought-forms. They had surrounded themselves with these undesirable thought-forms while on Earth, and now they must go through the unpleasant task of separating themselves from the very thought-forms they created. Level 5 is just above the surface of the Earth.

“ The [fifth astral sub-plane] lies just above the surface of the earth, and is still a region of varied discomfort, in which those whose personal characteristics are such as to require purification before they are qualified for existence on any of the superior regions, spend a time greatly varying in duration.” (In The Next World, page 10)

Here is the case of G. R., from Sinnet's book. G. R. gave into excessive sexual gratification while alive, and is now plunged into such a world, against his will, causing him to feel continued (and inescapeable) disgust.

[G. R.] “... describes himself as having been in life a man with a very ardent feeling for the other sex, though with refined tastes and habits. But he was now [in the after-life] plunged in the midst of the coarsest manifestations of that feeling. Without seeking the experience, he was drawn, sucked as it were, into the consciousness of a man of very gross nature and habits, and shared, though with loathing and disgust, his emotions as he gratified his desires. My friend was irresistibly tied to this man for a long time, till at last, with a horrified cry for help, he was enabled to break away, with a sense of extraordinary relief.” (In The Next World, page 19)

G. R. relates another fifth-level story.

“... I seemed to be surrounded by a peculiar cloud which seemed to obscure my sense of sight, a cloud of a reddish tinge; and it seemed to be drifting upon me, as far as I could judge. I did not appear to be the origin of it myself, and became conscious of an extraordinary sense of damp heat and that I was slowly drifting I knew not whither. How long I drifted I know not, but at last I found myself in a dense kind of fog. I became conscious of voices, at first dim and far off. Also aware of an acute, uncomfortable sensation of choking. All of a sudden the mist cleared away and I found myself in a room with a number of men and women. [The graphic sexual descriptions are ommitted, but the scene was one of very degraded debauchery.] I saw foul shapes of an extraordinary order floating round the room, one exactly like a large jellyfish. As it passed me it gave me an indescribable sensation of disgust and horror. I prayed to be delivered from this wretched condition ....” (In The Next World, pages 22-23)

G. R. is then taken away from that horrible place, and a Guide gives him some good advice.

“ ‘My friend, I have been permitted by my Master to help you. You must rest in this place for some little time. Remain patient. Do not long for those scenes that I have relieved you from.’ I thought at the time that was a strange remark, as I felt a powerful loathing for the scenes I had just left. He read my thought, for he went on to say: ‘You do not realise for the moment what this means, but those conditions will again recur, and unless you put them from you your sufferings will continue.' ” (In The Next World, page 24)

G. R. had not yet realized that it was his own desires that were transporting him to such a place. Only by removing those desires from himself could he escape.


Sinnet gives a final analysis as to why this was happening to G. R.

[G. R.] “ ... had great volumes of spiritual karma behind the unsatisfied passions of his last life. Moreover, I am inclined to believe that the disagreeable period described must have been to some extent traceable to unfulfilled tendencies of earlier lives. When he was finally free of all this, he ascended into lofty realms ....” (In The Next World, page 25)

InLove, now you can see how the Theosophical Hell is not a place of vengeful divine torture, but a place of burning off negativity that we have put upon ourselves.

[Bruce Michael]

On the subject of percepts, Goethe said something like: our senses were never wrong, it's the judgements we make which are wrong.

There is a difference in the knowledge we have from soul, (the Ancient Wisdom) and that we gain from our efforts (egoic).

Here is a more detailed description of the difference between the ego and soul:

"The ego of Man is generously given, because it is the sum-total of the experience which has gone before and of all of the good which was to be harvested therefrom.
Whilst the soul is so characterised, it also is not.

"Our soul selves are primarily angelic in their desires and in their attractions and perceptions. The soul is moreover satisfied with the enjoyment of Creation as it is.

"The ego of Man, on the other hand (which it does contrast right from left) advances into aspects of newness, which enables the being of man to take into himself much of the future.

"The soul embraces the past and reveres it. The soul is joyous with simple and humble pleasures of spiritual ecstasy, whilst the ego, to a great extent does tire of them. The ego pleads to take to itself more, and to be known to be more it has to be different to what it already contains in ways of experience and comprehension.

"And so we are introduced to a dissatisfaction from which we are prompted out into betterment and further development. The parcel of the two - of both will and ego contained and made active within our selves brings also the consequence, and knowledge of consequence, personally revealed. What we will and conjure, in action or by active thought, is consequently offered to us, in the opportunity to perceive the outcome and effect of our doings and to answer them. "

-The Brothers

-Br.Bruce

[InLove]

Hi Nick--I just stopped by to let you know that I haven't forgotten the conversation. I've just been preoccupied lately. I have also been meaning to tell Andrew the same....

I just didn't want to be rude, so I thought I'd let you know. I appreciate your patience.

InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove,

You remembered! I am so happy, I could dance.

[InLove]

Hi Nick.

Originally Posted by Nick

I am curious as to which religions you belonged to, in your various past lifetimes. Your interest in religious pluralism makes me wonder where you got such interest. (If you had been a Christian in all of your past lives, I believe you would not have such an interest today.) No doubt you have had many reincarnations in various religions, so now you wish to bring them together.

I don’t know, Nick, whether many reincarnations have taken place or not. If they have, I do not remember. Some say that reincarnation and a belief in Christ as Redeemer (both personal and universal) cannot go hand-in-hand. However, the Christ I know of has only revealed that I will be with Him when I pass from here—and I believe it will be at that time. What happens from that point on seems to be, as far as I can ascertain, anyone’s guess! What are those “many mansions” like? Who can say what that means? As far as “karma” goes, I have a hard time thinking of it in much different terms than along the lines of “what goes around, comes around”. But I suppose that if one were able to make certain choices between incarnations, then that would surely influence how that next “lifetime” would play out to a certain extent. But then, to think that there is a possibility of creating more negative karma is a bit daunting, and does seem to contradict the blessed assurance that is, after all, the message of the Christ (to me, anyway).

Originally Posted by Nick

(I am not a follower of the Christian "eternal" doctrine, a doctrine which makes no sense to me.)

When you say that “eternity” makes no sense to you, do you mean that you believe there is a time when all existence ends?

Originally Posted by Nick

InLove, now you can see how the Theosophical Hell is not a place of vengeful divine torture, but a place of burning off negativity that we have put upon ourselves.

Thanks—I was beginning to wonder! I didn’t think so, but it really does sound quite a bit like some Christian doctrines. Just on a personal note, I think that “hell” is separation from Love, and that we may enter into it in some ways here in “the plane” we are on at any given time. I do, however, still subscribe to the idea that there may be a “hell” on another or other planes, and that this “hell” could become eternal if we continue to deny the truth that comes from Love. When I say “Love”, I include “ the aspect of “Wisdom” as well. To me, without Love, there is no Wisdom, and vice-versa.

Perhaps my problem in subscribing to Theosophy is the same problem I have with just about any theology out there. I can take bits and pieces and they work. But pat formulas concerning the “afterlife” or “in between worlds” or “planes of existence” leave me wondering how, in the vastness of the great mysteries that are, anyone can say exactly how things work? Sure, we have the wise ones who come, and we have scholars, and we have psychic phenomenon, revelations, dreams, visions, experience, science, the literatature of the ages, history, and NDEs and the like—I mean, there is so much on which to base our opinions. But even in the case of near death experiences or psychic revelations, we still build those manmade assumptions or what have you from the statements of someone else, unless what we believe arises from our own personal knowledge or experience. Now, we can put these personal experiences together with what we have heard and come to a belief or at least an opinion. But I find it impossible to say for certain exactly how things will be when I pass from this life as I know it right now, even though I have had something very similar to a near death experience, I’d say. During this experience—and not an isolated one, by the way—what I did gain was a large measure of joy and assurance that humankind is a little mixed up when it comes to the message of Love and the mysteries therein. And here is where the “memories” you speak of may come into play, because from the time I was a child, I have always known that the Christ represented something for all people, that being the Love of God. Not in a way that says, “My God is better than your God, or that you must see Jesus of Nazareth the way I see Him in order to be “saved” or God cannot love you.” It isn’t that way as far as I can tell. It is just that He is there for me if I want, and there for anyone who wants. His whole message is about acceptance, not rejection. So I would say that, yes, I will see Him. I may also see Buddha—who knows? There was a time when I would have been afraid to type something like that, but it was only a short time out of my life, and I have come away from that kind of mindset, which I think is the “Christian” mindset to which Theosophy may very well be so opposed. I just find it a little sad, because I do not think it has to be that way. It isn’t just Theosophy, it is Christianity, too, along with lots of other philosophies out there. As I have been trying to tell Andrew (hi Andrew), it isn’t that I agree 100% with everything Roman Catholic—it is just that I make room for certain aspects within the different Traditions (just as I do for my dear Baptists!). There are certain things within each one that are unique, and that’s all I am saying. I never said there isn’t a golden thread of Truth that runs through them all. It is just that once parts of that Truth are recognized, why would I throw those parts out and start all over again?

Well, I have been rambling. At least I managed to do that! Yay! I hope I have managed to present my thoughts with some measure of clarity. As usual, I hope nothing I have said has offended. I kind of doubt it, but just remember that if I did, it is unintentional. It is just nice to be able to type a few serious ideas down for a few moments. I hate to keep blaming my problems on “chemo-brain” but, well, it is a pretty darned good excuse, I’m tellin’ ya!

InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove, you said,

"I don’t know, Nick, whether many reincarnations have taken place or not. If they have, I do not remember."

--> The vast majority of people do not remember their past lives. This is a good thing, because most of us are not ready to remember. Fortunately, it is said we will remember all of our past lives someday.

"Some say that reincarnation and a belief in Christ as Redeemer (both personal and universal) cannot go hand-in-hand."

--> I agree!

"However, the Christ I know of has only revealed that I will be with Him when I pass from here—and I believe it will be at that time."

--> It has been that those who want to see Jesus will see Jesus, those who want to see Buddha will see Buddha, etc.

"As far as "karma" goes, I have a hard time thinking of it in much different terms than along the lines of "what goes around, comes around". "

--> The phrase "what goes around, comes around" summarizes the idea of karma nicely.

"But I suppose that if one were able to make certain choices between incarnations, then that would surely influence how that next "lifetime" would play out to a certain extent."

--> That is an important part of my belief system. I believe we make very important decisions between incarnations.

"But then, to think that there is a possibility of creating more negative karma is a bit daunting...."

--> It is less daunting than the eternal Christian Hell. It is also less daunting than the Christian idea that we are not responsible for what we do.

"...and does seem to contradict the blessed assurance that is, after all, the message of the Christ (to me, anyway)."

--> Unfortunately, the Christian assurance makes no sense to me, which is why it is not a part of my belief system.

"When you say that "eternity" makes no sense to you, do you mean that you believe there is a time when all existence ends?"

--> The answer to your question is quite complicated, so I will only give one aspect of the full answer. According to Theosophy, the universe is in its active state, which began with the Big Bang. Eventually, the entire universe will enter a state of rest (the Big Crunch), and everything (including us) will also enter a state of complete and total rest. All of our activity will cease for a very long time. So, according to Theosophy, even a state such as Hell must end at that time. The ramifications of an eternal Hell are much more unworkable than you realize.

"InLove, now you can see how the Theosophical Hell is not a place of vengeful divine torture, but a place of burning off negativity that we have put upon ourselves. --> Thanks—I was beginning to wonder! I didn’t think so, but it really does sound quite a bit like some Christian doctrines."

--> I do not see the similarity. Feel free to give examples.

"When I say "Love", I include " the aspect of "Wisdom" as well. To me, without Love, there is no Wisdom, and vice-versa."

--> I agree. Theosophy demands a person develop their critical thinking skills to a high level. Such critical-thinking skills are required (according to Theosoph) for us to move to the next level. (I see no such demand within most of Christianity.) Christianity says we merely accept one or two doctrines, and we are guaranted eternal bliss. Theosophy does not, and says believing in the ideas of simple-doctrine-acceptance and guaranted-eternal-bliss do not require much Wisdom at all. The requirement of high-critical-thinking skills in Theosophy, and the lack of such a requirement in Christianity is one of the biggest differences between the two philosophies.



Theosophy requires open-minded thinking. Theosophy requires critical-thinking. Tell most groups of Christians that their ideas do not make sense, and you will be criticized. Tell most groups of Theosophists that their ideas do not make sense, and you will be encouraged to follow your train of thought. When I say Theosophy has no dogma, I mean that I am not allowed to spoon-feed you ideas. Theosophy hates the very idea of blind faith. Theosophy forces you to chew on each idea, and only accept it when you are ready.

"... in the vastness of the great mysteries that are, anyone can say exactly how things work?"

--> According to Theosophy, there are those people who have qualified to go to the next level, yet choose not to go. Instead, they return to Earth to share their first-hand experiences as to "exactly how things work"

"But even in the case of near death experiences or psychic revelations, we still build those manmade assumptions or what have you from the statements of someone else, unless what we believe arises from our own personal knowledge or experience."

--> Ah, but that is the trick, isn't it? Sure, we all have man-made assumptions. (These assumptions very much effect our experiences in the afterlife, but that is another discussion for another time.) We also have all kinds of people telling us different versions of what is really going on.

"Now, we can put these personal experiences together with what we have heard and come to a belief or at least an opinion."

--> Exactly!

"But I find it impossible to say for certain exactly how things will be when I pass from this life as I know it right now, even though I have had something very similar to a near death experience, I’d say."

--> The only way we will know for certain is when we finally get there. Theosophy says a good Christian or a good Hindu is making just as much progress. (Sadly, Christianity does not agree.)

"...assurance that humankind is a little mixed up when it comes to the message of Love and the mysteries therein."

--> Feel free to give examples. I think all of us can benefit from the examples you give.

"It is just that He is there for me if I want, and there for anyone who wants. His whole message is about acceptance, not rejection."

--> I am afraid this takes us back to the belief Mahatma Gandhi is burning in Hell because he chose not to follow Jesus.

"I may also see Buddha—who knows?"

--> I believe you will see Buddha in Heaven if you wish to see him.

"...I have come away from that kind of mindset, which I think is the "Christian" mindset to which Theosophy may very well be so opposed."

--> You are making great progress. I commend you on the great progress you have made so far.

"...I make room for certain aspects within the different Traditions...."

--> I believe each tradition has a piece of the true picture, just as you believe so.

"There are certain things within each one that are unique..."

--> Theosophy takes it a step farther. Theosophy says there are different kinds of people, so we need different kinds of religions. One type of religion will not for everyone. (Sadly, Christianity does not agree.)

"It is just that once parts of that Truth are recognized, why would I throw those parts out and start all over again?"

--> I do not see anyone asking you to throw out parts of Truth. Please feel free to give examples.

"Well, I have been rambling. At least I managed to do that!"

--> It sounds like you have been very busy. I appreciate your finally finding time to post your ideas.

"As usual, I hope nothing I have said has offended."

--> As usual, I have not found anything offensive.

"I hate to keep blaming my problems on "chemo-brain"...."

--> A lot of us have been going through an unusually large amount of bad karma recently. Hang in there, and keep posting. Keep making progress along the Path, too.

~~~

The software at this Forum is extremely buggy, I have no idea why it keeps adding uncommanded carriage-returns.

[earl]

inLove-tend to agree withyour sketicism about any highly elaborated spiritual system which claims to know exactly what lies behind the veil-how can we know that "for sure?" Some long dead dude had said religions were created in at least part to give reassuring falsely certain ideas re the nature of death and beyond. If we haven't been "there" so to speak we're merely taking someone else's word, (who unless they've been there is doing the same thing), for it. Of course, the Buddhists have an elabrated belief system about the states following death that many Buddhist uncritically accept which purportedly is based on some other long dead dude's experiential observations. Does taking anybody's word for any spiritual belief ultimately serve us? Pros & cons to that one I guess. It's natural human curiosity to wonder about any of the great mysteries including death. The 1 thing that experiential data such as NDE's do seem to provide us is the suggestion that this ain't the final act for anyone though exactly what may come following true death-who knows? Nearly every culture though seemed to operate on the premise that something of us continued on after death going back to the Neandethals apparently-objects found in their graves suggest to some paleoanthropolgists that the Neanderthals because of that finding believed in some form of after-life. Of course, if you accept as true the communications purportedly received from deceased folk via instrumental transcommunication may actually be examples of the dead who've been there telling us how it is for them. I love to specualte as much as the next person but I've never thought that spirituality was primarily about getting you ready for your next destination. Rather it to me is about making the most of where you're at now. To some degree I think to much "false certainty" about what lays beyond our expriences is distracting from the spiritual journey-that's why I can appreciate Zen Buddhism which has historically more than any school of Buddhism eschewed (gesundheit) spending much time on such a topic and emphasizing what Ram Dass called the title of 1 of his books 30+ years ago "Be Here Now." earl

[AndrewX]

A quick comment on how we can know things for certain using only the rules of logic, inference, and experience ...

Let us imagine, for simplicity's sake, a model of learning, knowledge, experience, and Wisdom, where an overall, blended level of `expertise' could be (simplistically) graded from A to Z.

Now imagine, with any given subject, that every person alive could be said to have expert, intermediate, or perhaps amateur proficiency - starting with A, and leading up to at least C, but perhaps no further.

Children learning in grade school might have, for example, an expert proficiency in astronomy at level A. They would have an intermediate proficiency at level B. And at level C, most would only be amateurs.

Now, in some rare exceptions a child might be a quick study, and might race ahead, such that his or her proficiency included expert mastery of level B, then intermediate at level C (or even D), then amateur at level D, even E.

Obviously, this is very one-dimensional thinking, and it is overly simplistic, but only by laying all this out will the rest of my post make sense.

This simplistic model could be applied, after a fashion, to ANY subject taught in our modern schools ... and in fact, if you think about it for a second, this is almost exactly how we GRADE our children, at least in the American K-12 system ... or at least, this was how we did it when I went to school. The only caveat is that E became F, to emphasize a failing grade, and A always means that one has passed an exam, a project, a presentation, or even an entire semester or class year with flying colors. In short, our (American) educational system uses a static scale, kind of the reverse of what I've laid out.

So getting back to my own model, let's consider:

If there is an objective truth regarding what happens to us all after death, for example, then it's really very simple. Some people have an understanding which begins at A, and does not even really reach the amateur level. These are few and far between, because I'd say that an A proficiency, expert, really just includes the acceptance that ALL THINGS THAT ARE BORN ALSO DIE. There are no exceptions to this rule.

B, however, will include a more detailed, or elaborated understanding of death, such as the fact that all of Nature observes a CYCLE, wherein birth and death go hand in hand, and are part of one, great SYSTEM.

Now add to this a C level of proficiency, which involves varying degrees of appreciation of our ecosystem, the fact that without death, there literally IS NO LIFE for Planet Earth, and maybe even the simple fact that there is much human speculation about whether or not we survive bodily death.

Now it is easy to see that proficiencies of understanding from D, E, F and beyond will include varying degrees of familiarity and grasp of the teachings from the various religions, what scientific research is out there, what the various symbologies of the world's religious and philosophical systems are (such as the phoenix, the grim reaper, the Ourobouros, the equal-armed cross, the Ankh, etc.) ...

But there is also an accumulated body of testimony, research and speculation (and belief) regarding out-of-body and near-death experiences ... such that we could easily see our A to Z model reach well past M, N and O.

Still, there is the testimony of those who have successfully MADE the transition themselves, from this world to the next, and who have either come back to talk about it ... or who have communicated this from the `other side' as it were.

It would seem that we just need to sit down, do the research for ourself, investigate what has already been amassed regarding the life after death SCIENTIFICALLY - in the SAME manner and according to the SAME METHOD, the recognized SCIENTIFIC METHOD, used by all other branches of the `hard sciences,' as well as by the social sciences.

The research, the testimony, the HARD, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE DOES EXIST.

You can ignore it, deny it, or refuse to face it, if you like.

And I will be the first to admit that it may take courage, if you have been brainwashed in your upbringing, or convinced by your fellow congregationalists, or assured by your pastor that it is the work of the devil even to QUESTION the dead-letter interpretation of the Holy Bible, and all other such measure of nonsense and gibberish.

I mean, yes, we DON'T HAVE all the answers, and probably NONE OF US, save those who have experienced death CONSCIOUSLY and MASTERED it, can go into the experience as calmly as most of us can sit down to eat a sandwich or an ice cream cone.

But after all this, I will tell you something.

Death is no different. There is an ice cream cone there, and you can see it. So can the people around you. It is tasty and enjoyable, unless it "goes down the wrong way," or unless you get hit by a truck as you're sitting there eating it.

What happened to the ice cream cone after you ate it? Was it magic? Did it disappear forever, leaving no TRACE? Do we insist that it is a mystery simply because it has left our objective, physical vision?

Man, no. It's in your stomach. That can be proven, quite easily.

And so can we prove what happens, what WILL happen, when any one of us dies. It's just up to you, every single one of us, to determine ... what do we want to know, and how important is it - to figure all this stuff out.

At some point, it's going to make you feel pretty STUPID, if you find that you've answered all your questions, but you still haven't quite learned what to DO with all that ... `knowledge.' And it isn't Wisdom, until and unless it's applied - and applied with Compassion, Lovingly, in Service.

It bugs me when people say, "it's a mystery, and we really don't know." Be honest. Use the personal pronoun. Say, I do not know. But do not assume that others don't.

You will not convince me that I did not float across the street during an out-of-body experience ... when I was 2 or 3. It cannot be done. I remain open to the possibility that I am in error regarding my understanding, or interpretation of the event. But, together with a handful of other experiences, and my 35 years to string them all together ... there are just some things that I KNOW.

And so does every one of us!

~_~_~_~_

As to the A B C ... think of it like this. My own proficiency (Understanding, Wisdom, grasp or knowledge) at say, level N might be PERFECT, or Expert. At level O it will be, say, Intermediate. And then at level P I am really quite an amateur. But is it safe to say I know ZIP about level Q?

No. I do know something. I just don't know very much at all. However, I may even know enough about Q to say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that even R at least EXISTS. WHAT can I say ABOUT it? Not a damn thing. But I DO at least know it is "there."

So, when it comes to things like Mastery of Life, the Universe and Everything ... you know, 42 and all that - at least relative to our little corner of the Solar System - I'd have to say that my little lettering scheme is not such a bad model after all for how each person's understanding of a given subject, matter, situation, etc. OVERLAPS with every OTHER person's understanding.

And so, while I may only have an intermediate and amateur understanding of levels O and P, respectively, there are plenty of other people all around me who have an EXPERT understanding of both of these levels, and then some.

To deny that this is true is absurd. To say that this is a matter purely of faith and of the heart, is also absurd. Blind faith is - exactly that.

A critic will aptly point out that my one-dimensional model is far to linear, and overly simplistic, but I do not claim it to be comprehensive, nor do I suggest that things are anywhere this simple. It's just something that hit me when I looked at this thread tonight, so I thought I'd share it.

The very REASON that I can say there are MASTERS, Mahatmas and Celestial Beings out there, of all shapes & sizes, and varying Orders ... is that on a very LOW END of the COSMIC SCALE (of Harmonies, friends, of MUSIC - the Music of the Spheres) ... I RESONATE.

We all do. However, imperfectly, we are each and every one of us a NOTE, and even a series of notes, in God's celestial symphony. And there are notes at the low end of the scale, notes in the middle, as well as notes at the upper ranges.

EVERY single note, at one point or another, is important in the grand scheme of things ... yet Theosophical teaching, and The Wisdom which I have studied (in whatever Tradition) emphasizes that not all notes are allowed to sound out an unchanging tone, with no variation in pitch, duration, etc.

A study of Hindu philosophy, including the three guna - tamas, rajas & sattva, or inertia, rhythm & order - is absolutely vital to understanding everything from the blossoming of the flower, to the flooding of the Nile, to the phylogeny & ontogony as taught in your Biology 101 class. Sure you can memorize all the stages of plant growth and cellular development, but if you do not realize that this is a mirror of exactly what happens when a new SOLAR SYSTEM is being born ... how will you also realize that this is the same process whereby a Human Soul beings its evolutionary Trek, completing it (upon this planet) with the coming into Christ as taught in Ephesians 4:13?

Either it begins to all fit together, even in a mosiac as simple and as simply beautiful as one prepared for you with crayons by your 3 yr old child ... or life forever remains a guessing game, and only so much empty-minded theology: mental masturbation at its greatest.

A simple faith (in the positive sense of optimism, hope) that on the other side of death we will find spiritual fulfilment - perhaps including peace, recompense, and resolution - is certainly a good thing, but so also is the direct experience of those who have "been there," so to speak, and come back to the body to tell about it. Does it really help if I point out, with all the certainly & conviction in the world, that most likely the entity we have met in an NDE or OOBE was NOT Jesus Christ? I dunno ...

But if you retort with something like, "How do you KNOW?" - all I can say is, wait and see. In the long run, it will not matter, because what's important is that for the person who has had the experience, an important step has been taken. If that person was asked to make a choice, and encouraged (as is often the case) to return to the body and to continue the work of the present incarnation, then it would actually do more harm than good - MUCH more harm - to try and point out that "oh, btw, that was your SOUL, not Jesus per se." I mean, that's not helpful now, is it?

You see? What good does MY understanding, MY intermediate proficiency at level K - or whatever - actually DO .... if I'm not USING it, to help other people, rather than forcing it down someone's throat, or just going around boasting about what I supposedly `KNOW'?

Another thought, concerning harmony:

It is as if, once all human understanding is taken into account, and synthesized, as one, great HARMONIC ... we will have EVERY single piece of Wisdom, knowledge, and accumulated experience, all vibrating together as ONE - so that from a far-off world, perhaps another planet, or maybe from the Spiritual level, in the case of a passing Cosmic Messenger, our little Earth will be heard to vibrating, singing OM (or any other sound which you feel best represents the human experience).

How sad, that if we are not extremely careful, the tone which is now sounding in the world of human events (as contrasted with Soul Potentials) ... may be forever silenced!

Some of the same kinds of knowledge, which reveal to us the secrets of the atom, the (lesser) mysteries regarding the spiritual worlds, and the hidden powers latent within every human being - which many people have begun to tap (or redevelop) - can be used for both Spiritual and selfish purposes.

It is not just a matter of having certain experiences, or even knowing, because one has been TOLD by a reliable source, that certain things exist. I do not have to be a high Initiate, or a Master, to act according to Goodwill, to practice Right Though, Right Action, Right Speech, in my daily life. And I do not have to sit and demand that the Universe bend down to prove to me that certain things exist ... in order to WORK for the change that I wish to see in the world.

The Teachings which I have studied, often use the expression, "Act as IF." And this, if I am not mistaken, is not far off from the WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) of much popularity among Christians. One problem, I have noticed, incidentally, is that clearly - many Christians just DO NOT KNOW ... WW, JD.

But for every Soul on the path, earnest aspiration, and heartfelt prayer, can and will lead to greater self-discovery, greater Spiritual discovery - and eventually, further empowerment to work toward serving God ... and this, first and foremost, means serving our fellow human beings. How can we serve each other, if there is no appreciation that each person IS A SOUL?

This is all tied together. And Z, fits neatly into A, just as every A, hold the full potential of Z. "I am the Alpha, and the Omega," Christ said, and this is perhaps one application of what He meant.

Love and Light,

~Andrew

[lunamoth]

Well said InLove and earl! I've missed you guys.