eternal life

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

Yes Q, I am implying that there was a clear differnce between eternal life and the kingdom of God. One had nothing to do with the other. The kingdom of God was heaven on earth, a true dying to the self born again experience. This I believe is at the heart of what Jesus preached.

you know what Did, now that I think about what you've said, I am beginning to understand. Let us take those people who lived from Adam up to Jesus birth. All they had was the OT, and promises (plus the old covanent). And suppose some of them did not have the oppertunity to know the Hebrew laws but did know the Noahidic laws (the seven rather than ten), and kept them as best they could. They died, and rest in the grave (with no sense of time passing).

They must stand judgement, but it would not be fair to judge them by standards set after Jesus time... (bear with me a moment).

Now we have those who have lived since Jesus came, and we have the advantage of the Grace and presence of the Holy Spirit continuing in our lives (those of us who know and accept Jesus). We will stand in judgement however, it will not be with the same standard as the group before us.

Finally if Revelations is correct, those who live during the 1000 years of peace will physically be aware of the presence of the living God on earth while they live, hence they will stand judgement to a different set of standards than the first or second group.

So, the first group will be brought back from the grave (whole in body and soul), and stand the "White Thrown Judgement" wherein the word shall be open to them and each will have a full measure of life to realize the truth of Jesus. Also, their names will be searched for in the books...

The second group will be judged as Christians who have accepted Jesus, not concerning eternal life, but rather what rewards they have stored in heaven while living as Christians (what fruits did they bring forth once their eyes were opened). Blessed are they that have not seen, but believe...

The third group will be judged knowing Jesus full well, having lived with Him.

In that light, I can agree that there are those who will have eternal life by having kept the commandments in their hearts as well as in daily life.

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

Its not possible to follow the 10 commandments.. If you even look at your neighbors wife with lust you are breaking that commandment and breaking that one commandment you are breaking them all.. '

That was the purpose of the sacrifice Jesus made because there is no way we could repay the debt we make by sinning every day. There is no such thing as a "good person". The only truly good person died on calvary to be resurrected 3 days later.

I see what your trying to say did... you are wanting to know if someone can get there without Jesus... according to my bible you cannot.

might I also correct the something... the first commandment is actually "Thall shalt have no other gods before me......"

[KnightoftheRose]

Hey, here's a random thought...

In Mahayana Buddhism, Nirvana is a condition experienced wholly within Samsara...in other words, the quality of permanence can be experienced in an impermanent existence...

Perhaps the same is true with Christianity. The "Kingdom of God" is Heaven experienced within this lifetime (at least partially) - the peace, joy, and fellowship with God that will come in the afterlife can be experienced now, in this world of hate and suffering...

Or maybe I'm just an idiot who needs to keep his mouth shut..

[didymus]

I am looking solely at what Jesus said. Follow the commandments to inherit eternal life. What contradicts this statement made by Jesus? Show me the passage. Jesus said follow the commandments, not if you do a, b or c or if you were born before or after. he was clear in his reply. Jesus never said that after my resurrectyion if you believe in me you'll have eternal life. he was preaching the kingdom of God here on earth. The kingdom is within you. Case and point.

Faithful, your statement that nobody is good was very disturbing to me. Is this what you really believe, that nobody is good? Why don't you reconsider that. I believe the majority of people in the world are inherently good. Everybody is tempted to do evil but that does not make them evil people.

You say only Jesus was good. Look at Mark 10:18

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by KnightoftheRose

Hey, here's a random thought...

In Mahayana Buddhism, Nirvana is a condition experienced wholly within Samsara...in other words, the quality of permanence can be experienced in an impermanent existence...

Perhaps the same is true with Christianity. The "Kingdom of God" is Heaven experienced within this lifetime (at least partially) - the peace, joy, and fellowship with God that will come in the afterlife can be experienced now, in this world of hate and suffering...

Or maybe I'm just an idiot who needs to keep his mouth shut..

i think the kingdom of God,
kingdom of heaven
and eternal life
are 3 distinct and different terms, but they intertwine each other in different parts of time and and individuals lives. it is hard to see it as a whole unless we take more scripture about them.

I think what you are saying in part is true Knight. But I am also seeing some people today trying to say that EGO and the inner man (soul) is God (like in New Age)...thus confusing the whole truth and that God is A SPIRIT, seperate from man, wanting to commune with us and guide us.

So some are having a Buddahist inner man experience, and thinking that is all there is to it. I think some are getting inner man emotion mixed up with the spirit of God too. But there is no doubt that Gods peace and joy does effect what we feel...sometimes there may even be conviciton.

You have a lot faith Knight and you know the scriptures well and I enjoy your postings.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by didymus

I am looking solely at what Jesus said. Follow the commandments to inherit eternal life. What contradicts this statement made by Jesus? Show me the passage. Jesus said follow the commandments, not if you do a, b or c or if you were born before or after. he was clear in his reply. Jesus never said that after my resurrectyion if you believe in me you'll have eternal life. he was preaching the kingdom of God here on earth. The kingdom is within you. Case and point.

Faithful, your statement that nobody is good was very disturbing to me. Is this what you really believe, that nobody is good? Why don't you reconsider that. I believe the majority of people in the world are inherently good. Everybody is tempted to do evil but that does not make them evil people.

You say only Jesus was good. Look at Mark 10:18

I stand by what I said... noone is good.. only one who is without sin is good. Jesus knows our hearts.. He knows our intents. We are plagued by evil thoughts all the time.. we cant help it. The person who does good every day of their life is not pure in thought or deed.. or intent. We have a sin debt that we build upon every day of our life we cannot pay it back without Jesus Christ. Its not possible. Sin is also following short of Gods glory which all of us do. Not following Gods will is a sin..

It would be like paying off a $10k debt on your Visa with your Mastercard.. you never pay off the principle.

Jesus also said that He and His Father are one.. and He said to the disciples that they did not need to see the Father because they saw Him. Jesus was showing that He was wholly man in that verse and later showing that He was also wholly God.

Anyone that says that they are good and can make it to heaven on that merit is deceived... It is impossible to make it to heaven on works alone.. Jesus said it Himself that He is the way and that noone can get to the Father except by Him.

I would also suggest that a better translation is that The Kingdom is in your midst rather than within you. Many scholars agree on this fact.

[lunamoth]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”

Matthew 5: 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Pretty clear that Jesus not only upholds all the 10 commandments, but extends them radically. The point, I think, is to show us what the Kingdom of God is.

We are good, but we are not perfect. Yet Jesus tells us to be perfect.

Jesus was fully God and fully human (I know, I know, not logical. But you can't get there just using your head). Therefore He was fully good. He also tells us not only that we can be, but that we must.

Thus the need for grace. As Faithfulservant says, we can't be perfect for even one hour (when we're awake, anyway), much less for our whole life on earth.

[didymus]

Ok, let me get this straight. I mentioned 3 passages where Jesus specifically said to inherit eternal life one must follow the conmmandments. So far noone has agreed with this or even seemed remotely comforted by it. Instead I have received every explanation as to why this can't be. This is overwhelming to me that this topic would meet so much resistance.

I am asking for all that don't agree with this to give me verses that would dispute it. I personally believe that Jesus was a firm believer in the law and the commandments and he went even further. He taught that, sure you can do these things and be good and go to heaven for it. But I have more to offer you. Follow me and I will show you rebirth, the kingdom of God here on earth. You can walk with God here, you can meet God here. You can be born again. The kingdom of God is within you, it is all around you.

This can be illustrated by those folks you know who go to service or mass and sing and share and pray with everyone else but haven't experienced that "born again" experience. They are good people and are sincere but haven't really tapped into God in that deep transcending way. Know what I'm talking about?

I think people have taken Jesus' teachings from him and turned them into something else.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by didymus

Ok, let me get this straight. I mentioned 3 passages where Jesus specifically said to inherit eternal life one must follow the conmmandments. So far noone has agreed with this or even seemed remotely comforted by it. Instead I have received every explanation as to why this can't be. This is overwhelming to me that this topic would meet so much resistance.

I am asking for all that don't agree with this to give me verses that would dispute it. I personally believe that Jesus was a firm believer in the law and the commandments and he went even further. He taught that, sure you can do these things and be good and go to heaven for it. But I have more to offer you. Follow me and I will show you rebirth, the kingdom of God here on earth. You can walk with God here, you can meet God here. You can be born again. The kingdom of God is within you, it is all around you.

This can be illustrated by those folks you know who go to service or mass and sing and share and pray with everyone else but haven't experienced that "born again" experience. They are good people and are sincere but haven't really tapped into God in that deep transcending way. Know what I'm talking about?

I think people have taken Jesus' teachings from him and turned them into something else.

From where I sit didymus it looks like people here are not disagreeing with your first paragraph except to tell you why from this alone they do not draw comfort, except through accepting Jesus as Lord.

[didymus]

Do you acknowledge that Jesus said, "follow the commandments to inherit eternal life'? Yes or no?

[lunamoth]

Dear didymus, let's look at the whole passage.

The Rich Young Man
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

So, no, it's not just to follow the ten commandments to inherit (note, not earn) eternal life. One must also give up all one has and follow Jesus.

That's my read on it, anyway.

Peace,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

Ok, let me get this straight. I mentioned 3 passages where Jesus specifically said to inherit eternal life one must follow the conmmandments. So far noone has agreed with this or even seemed remotely comforted by it. Instead I have received every explanation as to why this can't be. This is overwhelming to me that this topic would meet so much resistance.

Go back up, I think you missed my second post. If not, then you didn't answer my question either.

v/r

Q

[didymus]

Luna, I think you'll better understand what i am saying by rereading the very first post I did on this topic.

Q- out of everybody I feel that you know where I'm coming from. At least more than most. Actually you didn't ask a question, at least i didn't see it. truthfully I think what you said diverges from the comment Jesus made. Those are post Jesus theories( if I'm not mistaken)

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by didymus

Yes Q, I am implying that there was a clear differnce between eternal life and the kingdom of God. One had nothing to do with the other. The kingdom of God was heaven on earth, a true dying to the self born again experience. This I believe is at the heart of what Jesus preached.

Dear didymus,

I'm getting confused by your distinction between Kingdom of God and eternal life. Please correct me, you say:

Kingdom of God = right here and now, starting with a "born again" experience

eternal life = after earthly life and earned by not breaking the 10 commandments, nothing to do with the Kingdom of God

Well, I guess I don't agree with this distinction. I do think the Kingdom of God is right here and now, Real all the time, evident to us in glimpses, to be completed when Christ returns in glory.

As for a "born again" experience, I do not think one has to "feel something transcendent" to be born again.

peace,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

Q- out of everybody I feel that you know where I'm coming from. At least more than most. Actually you didn't ask a question, at least i didn't see it. truthfully I think what you said diverges from the comment Jesus made. Those are post Jesus theories( if I'm not mistaken)

That came straight from the Bible, no theories. OT, NT and Revelations. I didn't make that up, nor did I go looking for someone else's interpretation. I'm only guilty of paraphrasing into modern English and leaving out the verse numbers.

Except for the end where I said I agree.

However, I am going to now go pull every comment Jesus allegedly said, or was quoted as saying, and see if it matches up with the rest of the Bible prophets and authors...

v/r

Q