Evil

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

From what I understand about "some" religions. There is a GOD.

What I am tiring to understand is if that GOD or (that being that binds and animates all things in existence) is all "GOOD", then why was evil created? (Meaning Evil in any form. The Devil etc....) Also,

All comments are welcome.
No debates here....
I just love to here different opinions from people.

[wil]

Evil is a perception.

Tis why all evil people perceive those that persecute them as evil.

Folks that speed or steal think the cops are evil.

Al Queda thinks Americans are evil and vice versa.

[lunamoth]

Evil is not created by God. It is a choice made by his creation (us).

[GlorytoGod]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Evil is not created by God. It is a choice made by his creation (us).

yep thats it.

as far as I know anyway.

[Snoopy]

If there is good, how can there not be evil?

If there was no evil, there could be no good.

If there are laws, there are criminals.

If there are no laws, there are no criminals.

If you make more laws, you make more criminals.

s.

[AndrewX]

A question of perspective

A god that creates creatures who can then foul up "his" creation ... makes no sense at all. I can do better.

Evil as part of God's Creation, on the other hand, and a necessary part ... not only makes sense, it explains the very process of growth.

For awhile, evil is part of our very being, part of our human (imperfect) nature. Then, after we reach earthly perfection, a NEW standard of perfection is entered into, and evil is understood on a greater scale -- but still not escaped or superseded.

On a Cosmic scale, evil must be overcome, yet remains even for beings like Christs, Buddhas. Relative to evil as we know it, there is no temptation, no possibility of "sin" for a Christ or Buddha. There is Perfection, but there is still growth, change, and resistance of certain possibilities of evolution.

If there were no evil, there could be no Free Will, and thus no possibility of the very overcoming of Temptation that made Christ Christ, or that makes us greater ... than we currently are. Free Will does not ultimately (or always) necessitate evil. But for some time ahead of us, our choices do require that we forego evil in order to develop our spiritual potential. Free Will thus implies choice, and the learning of what are better -- and Ideal -- choices, in any given situation ... always with a moving from the particular to the Universal.

In one sense, so long as there is even a manifest Cosmos/Creation, there could be said to be evil, if we define evil as "separation from God." At the final moment of a Cosmic "Big Crunch," evil in this sense could be said to wink back out of existence ... until the cycle begins anew.

We should remember that all possibilities and potentials exist within the Being of (or Whom we call) God. God needs nothing, no one, to bring such into manifestation. Yet by creating (or emanating) [a] Cosmos, the field of Evolution -- both material and Spiritual -- is provided for us, and for all future Beings ... and all manner of Relationships become possible. Perhaps a consideration of various relationships (between each other, between self & environment, between various levels of our own being -- and God's) could reveal more about "Good" and "evil."

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

If there is good, how can there not be evil?

If there was no evil, there could be no good.

If there are laws, there are criminals.

If there are no laws, there are no criminals.

If you make more laws, you make more criminals.

s.

Good one...I always thought along those lines, but was not sure if anyone else thought like that.

[wil]

Originally Posted by YO-ELEVEN-11

Good one...I always thought along those lines, but was not sure if anyone else thought like that.

dualism...

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

A question of perspective

A god that creates creatures who can then foul up "his" creation ... makes no sense at all. I can do better.

Evil as part of God's Creation, on the other hand, and a necessary part ... not only makes sense, it explains the very process of growth.

For awhile, evil is part of our very being, part of our human (imperfect) nature. Then, after we reach earthly perfection, a NEW standard of perfection is entered into, and evil is understood on a greater scale -- but still not escaped or superseded.

On a Cosmic scale, evil must be overcome, yet remains even for beings like Christs, Buddhas. Relative to evil as we know it, there is no temptation, no possibility of "sin" for a Christ or Buddha. There is Perfection, but there is still growth, change, and resistance of certain possibilities of evolution.

If there were no evil, there could be no Free Will, and thus no possibility of the very overcoming of Temptation that made Christ Christ, or that makes us greater ... than we currently are. Free Will does not ultimately (or always) necessitate evil. But for some time ahead of us, our choices do require that we forego evil in order to develop our spiritual potential. Free Will thus implies choice, and the learning of what are better -- and Ideal -- choices, in any given situation ... always with a moving from the particular to the Universal.

In one sense, so long as there is even a manifest Cosmos/Creation, there could be said to be evil, if we define evil as "separation from God." At the final moment of a Cosmic "Big Crunch," evil in this sense could be said to wink back out of existence ... until the cycle begins anew.

We should remember that all possibilities and potentials exist within the Being of (or Whom we call) God. God needs nothing, no one, to bring such into manifestation. Yet by creating (or emanating) [a] Cosmos, the field of Evolution -- both material and Spiritual -- is provided for us, and for all future Beings ... and all manner of Relationships become possible. Perhaps a consideration of various relationships (between each other, between self & environment, between various levels of our own being -- and God's) could reveal more about "Good" and "evil."

ok. No debate...just a question. (Not questioning GOD)

Are you saying that Evil is "necessary" for us to learn from its effects and not do it? or that "evil" exists because GOD wants it to exists to keep us learning until we max it out at which time we do "GOOD" until we max out on that and then we do evil again..etc.etc...Until GOD says enough and gives us that resolution to overcome that cycle.

Sort of like when we are kids we fight (evil) and learn (good), and the process saturate us until we realize that doing both are necessary and at the same time not necessary because both are designed to help us learn and realize that both have effects at which point we learn to "control" and "design" both for an overall effect of our choosing (to teach or just to obseve) and become “engineers" (make it possible) for us control things?

[winner08]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Evil is not created by God. It is a choice made by his creation (us).

lunamoth, I must bring this to your attention. I don't know you or your belief's . I believe in what scripture says and scripture is the word of God. The God of Abarham. The Lord says in Isa-45:7, I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.

Isa-54:16, Behold I have created the blacksmith that blows the coal in the fire and that brings forth an instrument for HIS works, and I have created the waster to destroy.

The Lord created the devil to do a specific job. The devil didn't just choose to be evil. The Lord created all things. This includes the devil (satan) for the job of being the destroyer. The devil (satan) is a destroyer of men he must be evil, therefore God created EVIL.

My intention is not to offend anyone but to make people think. Removing the scales from their eyes.

Thanks,.
Darren

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Originally Posted by wil

dualism...

But both designed to teach and at the same time promote each other...

Is it that both are in control and at the same in conflict but working together to teach?

i.e. Good Cop bad Cop...The Criminal (person being busted is supposed to learn and at the same time do more good than evil).

At which point "evil" becomes controlled and ”GOOD" takes over until the "GOOD" becomes "evil"

i.e. communities need money to function, but money pushes people (the need to function in that community) commit crimes "evil" to get it, and vise versa...Money is generated to curb crime (hire more cops to fight people who are tiring to get the very thing that is used to do "Good") Hope that is not too confusing of an example....


I guess a good phrase here would be "The process of good and evil"

To sum it up (I guess, don’t really know) we as humans tend to create things that function as we do.



Just a thought?

Any comments?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by winner08

lunamoth, I must bring this to your attention. I don't know you or your belief's . I believe in what scripture says and scripture is the word of God. The God of Abarham. The Lord says in Isa-45:7, I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.

Hi Darren,

Thank you for your comment. I am familiar with that passage in Isaiah, it is in the context of the prophet describing how the Lord will use Cyrus to release Israel from bondage in Babylonia. In my NRSV translation it is:

I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.

Not that this is significatnly different from the version you posted. It is a claim that the Lord is sovereign over all, including foreign kings and powers, and all bend to His will.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that evil is ever God's will; that's not the God I meet in Jesus. There are many things attributed to God in the Old Testament that I do not think really came from God.

[Francis king]

evil... often confused with ignorance, sickness, misery, misfortune, stupidity, unthinking-ness... yet.. evil exists... is it of the devil, some malign force the opposite of Good, and God?

Nope...

[winner08]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Darren,

Thank you for your comment. I am familiar with that passage in Isaiah, it is in the context of the prophet describing how the Lord will use Cyrus to release Israel from bondage in Babylonia. In my NRSV translation it is:

I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.

Not that this is significatnly different from the version you posted. It is a claim that the Lord is sovereign over all, including foreign kings and powers, and all bend to His will.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that evil is ever God's will; that's not the God I meet in Jesus. There are many things attributed to God in the Old Testament that I do not think really came from God.

Let me try this. If God is the creator of all including satan and satan is evil than that would make God the creator of evil. No God is not evil God created good and evil.

God created the tree of good and evil

God can not do evil God can not do sin

therefore God created evil. How can you have one without the other. one must know good in order to know evil.

Tomorrow I will have more scripture on God created evil.

Darren

PS remember I said God is the creator of good and evil. I did not that God is evil. l never implied that God was evil.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by YO-ELEVEN-11

ok. No debate...just a question. (Not questioning GOD)

Are you saying that Evil is "necessary" for us to learn from its effects and not do it? or that "evil" exists because GOD wants it to exists to keep us learning until we max it out at which time we do "GOOD" until we max out on that and then we do evil again..etc.etc...Until GOD says enough and gives us that resolution to overcome that cycle.

I think the simple version is that we are supposed to learn from the effects/consequences of evil actions, and not repeat the actions that lead to those consequences. I know that conventional Christianity has taught -- for 15 centuries -- that we have only lifetime to worry about, but this makes no sense to me, because we cannot perfect ourselves (even with God's help) in just one, short lifetime. And since billions of people lived and died before Christ Jesus was ever born, and many more have never even heard of Jesus, the idea that a person even needs to know Jesus (specifically) -- in order to be "saved" -- is pretty well absurd.

What a person must learn, it seems to me, is that "what goes around, comes around," that "as we sow, so shall we reap." And this comes squarely down to personal Responsibility. If we think, speak and act with selfish and negative intentions -- to harm others or to take advantage of people -- then this is what we may expect in our future. Not that some wrathful, punishing "god"-being is going to make us suffer for our foolishness, but rather, that the Loving, all-considering Universe (administered by a Loving Being) already accommodates, or allows for, our error -- and that we are thus given the opportunity to learn how to correct our wrong thoughts, wrong speech and wrong actions.

For many thousands of lifetimes it is understandable, natural and unavoidable that we behave utterly selfishly, and much negative karma will be accumulated. In these lifetimes, we do realize, here & there, that we can do better, and thus we learn much (about) GOOD, and about GOD. But we "backslide," as Christians say. Not that we backslide Spiritually, or in terms of our Soul Consciousness, or Soul progress. It's just that we are not yet ready to embrace the Royal Road with the depth and fullness of our being. In fact, if we try, or if we were pushed to do that ... we would almost certainly fail. Progress, especially Spiritual progress, comes gradually -- not by leaps and bounds.

Yet as we reach increasing Spiritual maturity, I think we do become more accustomed to following the Spiritual Laws which govern the entire Cosmos. We learn that there is no one to blame but ourselves -- both individually and collectively -- when things go wrong. This is karma. It's easy to want to scapegoat someone else, or something else. But what goes around, comes around. And no one, is punishing anyone.

So, imho, what you've said about the necessity of exhausting evil, or evil tendencies, bears a grain of truth -- but this does not mean that we have an excuse, a free license, to sin and err ... simply because God forgives us. It does not mean that there is NO consequence for our (wrong) actions. It just means that the natural method of progress is to sometimes take three steps forward, and one backward ... yet at others we may take two steps forward, and THREE backward!

It means that EVIL will test and tempt us, not just until we have seen God's Light, and experienced God's Love -- once -- but rather, evil will "dog our steps" every step of the way. Our strengthening Spiritual character (or "true self") learns -- or rather, teaches us -- to walk "in the Light" the majority of the time, but our human (imperfect) nature also tempts us ... or allows temptation into our human heart & mind ... and this is the proverbial "chink in the armor" (of the Lord). This is not a bad thing, per se, however, because until we are "ROCK SOLID" -- not just in Faith -- but also in terms of a PERFECTED SPIRITUAL BEING, the Word made flesh (see Ephesians 4:13) ... until this time, we NEED this testing and tempting. We actually could not reach our goal, without these kind of opportunities.

Originally Posted by YO-ELEVEN-11

Sort of like when we are kids we fight (evil) and learn (good), and the process saturate us until we realize that doing both are necessary and at the same time not necessary because both are designed to help us learn and realize that both have effects at which point we learn to "control" and "design" both for an overall effect of our choosing (to teach or just to obseve) and become “engineers" (make it possible) for us control things?

Okay, I feel silly now. I hadn't read this part of your post when I typed the above ... paragraphs. I think you've summed up what I had to say quite beautifully, and briefly.