EVIL! what is it?

[_Z_]

EVIL!

What is evil?

Does evil exist or is it ‘all in the mind’. If so then is there hell or demons that are ‘real’ [in a similar context to angels or spirits], and do they affect the mind?

If evil is a real force, in the same context as good, then what form do they take e.g. a spiritual nature of existence [or not] similar to an energy. Or are good and evil principles that act upon the ‘inner fabric’ of the universe [& eternity?].



Is good and evil balanced like yin and yang, thus if one creates an environment where good is almost at its maximum, then evil would appear less often - yet more powerfully!



Armageddon in my head!

Is there good and evil within us all [in varying degrees]? That must be balanced!

Or can good completely eliminate evil – so going beyond its yin/yang state? – If the place beyond duality is neither good or evil but both [‘it’ {good n evil}= either neither & both], where would this leave evil or hell, what I mean is; at the moment of creation only the oneness and god existed, and all that came from his belly is his creation, thus hell does not exist! Evil would then be ‘of gods manifestation’!!!?

Or perhaps as soon as god becomes himself - in order to perform the act of creation, then his opposite ‘Lucifer being’ is automatically made manifest, due to the nature of the spirit that it is of no law, it simply takes any shape it can. So evil is indeed within the shadows!



Nature’s yoga:

In nature things tend to end badly, sometimes it seams cruel and ‘evil’. Is this a result of nature following spirit and stretching towards all extremes? As evil is extremity, then is this one way in which the Lucifer energy interacts with nature?



Yet nothing would occur if not for the primal act of duality however subtle it was [I think it may have been a rather load bang actually lol]!

Then the million-dollar question is: who caused the primary schism? Or is it eternally there so to say?



Any thoughts.



Z

[Bandit]

here is what i think evil is.

something morally bad or wrong including an evil agenda, an evil influence, evil deeds & clinging to some vices can be evil if they cause harm.

i think it all exists in the mind, actions & in influence but like you say we find a balance with it all & learn how to get rid of it & stay away from it.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I do not think evil really exists, it is just a word we use to describe the tangible effects of the cycle of constant suffering.

[seattlegal]

Is there good and evil within us all [in varying degrees]? That must be balanced!

IMHO, "balance" implies "justice," in the respect of good and evil.

One observation regarding good and evil: good survives in the presence of boundaries (moral, physical, self-imposed, or otherwise,) whereas evil spreads freely in the absence of boundaries. examples: poison contained within a bottle vs the poison being released into the water supply; or criminals being contained within prison, instead of being allowed to roam freely within the general public.

[_Z_]

Bandit hi.



Yes evil appears to be a superficial thing, operating on the holistic level mainly. I agree this level of evil can indeed be conquered on a mental level.



But where does it come from? ‘evil’ people seam to get lots of evil thoughts appear in there head – gradually increasing in depth, leading them towards evil! Some cope with it and some don’t. This is why that; on a philosophical level I would say [if I may] that spirit has a ‘side’ [perspective of vision], which is universal & thus like a mass pushing everything towards extremes, as if it were performing universal yoga!

Thence on this level it is not the spirit that is evil as such, more that ‘evil’ people are not understanding the balance & are drawn towards evil – sometimes it doesn’t take much to make someone think they are evil. Once this has happened it is a case of the individual ‘turning’ away or not.



What did you think of the primal schism? Is evil an immediate result of creation? & Does it have a spiritual nature – or is it the lesser end of universal spirit?



AT5. Hi



I agree in the context I think you mean it. See above questions [if you will], as I am not sure if evil is real although conquerable with the mind.



Seattlegal, hi.



I see the balance as all manner of extremes; I know what you mean though. So what do you think of this: the feather of maat, is the ancient Egyptian view of justice, it is kind of like the Tao in a way. Once one finds a universal balance within, then this is the heart of peace, yet to arrive at it one must be a little evil and equally good. This then alternates trying to escape to extremes – then life is about remaining in the middle [the middle path {path of green}] with the scales harmonised.

One observation regarding good and evil: good survives in the presence of boundaries (moral, physical, self-imposed, or otherwise,) whereas evil spreads freely in the absence of boundaries. examples: poison contained within a bottle vs the poison being released into the water supply; or criminals being contained within prison, instead of being allowed to roam freely within the general public.

That is an excellent description! For years I was an anarchist [of sorts], but one does have to have boundaries! Though I would say not rigid ones, as evil can find its way into fixed ideals & dogmatism! Again it is extremes; the two main kinds of evil people in the world are a, of the rigid mind or b, amoral, leading to immoral.



Z.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Bandit hi.



Yes evil appears to be a superficial thing, operating on the holistic level mainly. I agree this level of evil can indeed be conquered on a mental level.



But where does it come from? ‘evil’ people seam to get lots of evil thoughts appear in there head – gradually increasing in depth, leading them towards evil! Some cope with it and some don’t. This is why that; on a philosophical level I would say [if I may] that spirit has a ‘side’ [perspective of vision], which is universal & thus like a mass pushing everything towards extremes, as if it were performing universal yoga!

Thence on this level it is not the spirit that is evil as such, more that ‘evil’ people are not understanding the balance & are drawn towards evil – sometimes it doesn’t take much to make someone think they are evil. Once this has happened it is a case of the individual ‘turning’ away or not.



What did you think of the primal schism? Is evil an immediate result of creation? & Does it have a spiritual nature – or is it the lesser end of universal spirit?



Z.

some people thrive on chaos & confusion & making evil things happen. i believe it starts from a literal satan & literal devils & demons in the spirit world & no one is ever going to convince me otherwise. I dont think it is the lesser end of a universal spirit, but i do think the GREAT SPIRIT is capable of destroying evil with evil.

by primal schism not sure what you mean. was there a split or division from opposing angels? then i say yes. however i think the original thought came from the ONE who created the angels.

the BIG spirit is different from the lesser ones which i observe as evil & the lesser angels. the power itself is lesser & limited though it can be quite convincing to those who may not be aware.

[seattlegal]

I see the balance as all manner of extremes; I know what you mean though. So what do you think of this: the feather of maat, is the ancient Egyptian view of justice, it is kind of like the Tao in a way. Once one finds a universal balance within, then this is the heart of peace, yet to arrive at it one must be a little evil and equally good. This then alternates trying to escape to extremes – then life is about remaining in the middle [the middle path {path of green}] with the scales harmonised.

That is an excellent description! For years I was an anarchist [of sorts], but one does have to have boundaries! Though I would say not rigid ones, as evil can find its way into fixed ideals & dogmatism! Again it is extremes; the two main kinds of evil people in the world are a, of the rigid mind or b, amoral, leading to immoral.

So, do you think that evil could be a confusion or a disregard for optimal boundaries?
Differing viewpoints are necessary in order to energize conscious thought. However, these differing viewpoints do not need to be confined to the ideas of Good and Evil. IMHO, it is the manner that differing viewpoints interact that needs to be examined, with each viewpoint observing optimal boundaries, in order for the most beneficial outcome to occur. JMHO.

[_Z_]

Bandit.



Interesting… if there is a literal Satan, I would ask what is his origin, & does he have powers – is he a personification of evil. Indeed evil would need to be personified in order to be directed, unless it is the presence of duality throughout the spirit! This is where the primal schism comes into it. It is the very dividing principle of duality, if god is one, then it is the very thing that divides his perfection and unity. So I suppose it would be that which demands existence! First there is god and god has spirit, in an infinite ‘place’ + the principle; ‘anything that can happen shall’, then the next thing must occur. The first alternative to unity is duality, once this has occurred all things ‘within its grasp’ must become manifest. So it is perhaps like a cosmic battle, with god and Satan fighting for control.



The question is then: does duality exist within god? If god is the first being, is Satan his first creation or self created as an opposite by principle? Without Satan can there be creation – as god is unity, & without duality nothing exists? Thus Satan is the necessary evil by which all things are manifest.



Lesser spirits evil? Are we not lesser spirits than god? If good and evil are like yin and yang then they have equal power, its just that good tends to be constructive, while evil destructive, so good is more visible.





Seattlegal.



Yes perhaps we could eliminate the ideas of good and evil, and just see things in terms of perspectives. It is an interesting point that our thoughts need duality to exist [energise conscious thought], it appears [see above] that Satan is a part of everything, without him there is nothing.



That is if duality is evil? it seams that one can either eradicate the notion of evil – to a superficial level, or it is within everything even our thoughts. This is the danger of a good/evil basis to our belief systems – perhaps it is better to banish them!



Z

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Bandit.



Interesting… if there is a literal Satan, I would ask what is his origin, & does he have powers – is he a personification of evil. Indeed evil would need to be personified in order to be directed, unless it is the presence of duality throughout the spirit! This is where the primal schism comes into it. It is the very dividing principle of duality, if god is one, then it is the very thing that divides his perfection and unity. So I suppose it would be that which demands existence! First there is god and god has spirit, in an infinite ‘place’ + the principle; ‘anything that can happen shall’, then the next thing must occur. The first alternative to unity is duality, once this has occurred all things ‘within its grasp’ must become manifest. So it is perhaps like a cosmic battle, with god and Satan fighting for control.



The question is then: does duality exist within god? If god is the first being, is Satan his first creation or self created as an opposite by principle? Without Satan can there be creation – as god is unity, & without duality nothing exists? Thus Satan is the necessary evil by which all things are manifest.



Lesser spirits evil? Are we not lesser spirits than god? If good and evil are like yin and yang then they have equal power, its just that good tends to be constructive, while evil destructive, so good is more visible.



Z

there is a difference in that which is just spirit & that which is both spirit & flesh. would you agree? & i would tend to think that every thing God has made that has a mind, would have the option & ability to be good or evil...or so that is what it has been for me.
I can give you a hug & handshake, or i can stick a bullet in your foot. which whould you prefer & which would you consider good & which would you consider evil?
if you prefer i can put 6 bullets in your foot, to make sure it is real evil. LOL

i dont see a cosmic battle going on with God. He just waits patiently for all things to be fulfilled.

Without Satan can there be creation – as god is unity, & without duality nothing exists? Thus Satan is the necessary evil by which all things are manifest.

yah. something like that.

[_Z_]

Bandit.



Yes I agree there is a difference between spirit and embodied spirit. God has created many things but perhaps only we humans have notions of good and evil [and Satan], although animals seam to know right and wrong to a degree.

If you prefer I can put 6 bullets in your foot, to make sure it is real evil

, yes I get the point, there is right and wrong, then there is willingly committing wrong – which is surely ‘evil’!

i don’t see a cosmic battle going on with God. He just waits patiently for all things to be fulfilled.

Yep, god knows all shall return to their origins in the oneness. Perhaps my problem lies in the very notion of duality, as unto god then surely duality itself is an illusion! If there are no divisions between things then it is our ignorance that sees difference. Thus evil does not exist on a cosmic level – there is only gods creation & Satan is not part of it! [thank you for taking me to this understanding!].



Z

[At_the_Wellspring]

Hi Z and all, interesting thread!

Yes, duality is something I have a hard time understanding sometimes...

I do believe that evil needs to exist in order for good to exist. If evil did not exist then 'goodness' couldn't exist either. Or at least it could exist, but we would not be able to experience goodness if the other extreme did not exist.

But i don't think that means that the world can't get any better, that we can never eradicate the earth of evil acts (I am an optimist , though i realise it isn't likely to happen in my lifetime...). I think it is possible to live in a good and loving world, but one in which we observe the existence of evil elsewhere or in our past, and acknowledge the potential for evil within ourselves and our society.

And back to the duality thing... I'm sure God has a much grander vantage point than we do. I can only understand the clues. And some of those clues make me question whether lines and borders and the black-white notion of good-evil, right-wrong actually exists.

Some of the concepts, rules and laws defining 'evil' and 'wrong' have changed over history which indicates that our understanding is very much tainted by the human eyes through which we understand it all. And then there are the 'good', 'normal' people who under extreme or particular circumstances 'turn evil', or get to a breaking point where they do something 'evil' which always makes us wonder if we were put under the same conditions, lived at that time and place, etc, would we have done the same? Do I have potential for evil within me?

An interesting side-thread would be whether as humans we are born fundamentally 'evil' or fundamentally 'good'. Toward which do we have a natural tendency?

I had this discussion with my parents and sister and found we were split 50/50. Dad has an insatiable interest in history, and through learning about history and war, sees so much evil, and a tendency for greed, power and pride within the human race. Looking at history supports his belief that there must be some kind of 'hell' or place where histories wrongs are righted. My sister tended to agree.

I would tend to say that our default is towards good. I can see also the existence of pride and greed, but what about the fact that when people are placed in a situation where they have no chance to think, no chance to rationalise or let their past experience/ pressure/ selfishness influence them, people do extraodinary things, risking their own life for the sake of another?

Anyway, maybe that is a side-track from the issue.

So anyway, while I guess I believe the duality exists, I believe that the pull towards the 'good side' (or God) is ultimately stronger than the pull to the other, and that while evil must exist for the existence of its opposite, maybe existence of evil can be reduced to being simply 'recognition of' and 'potential for' rather than needing acts or thoughts of evil to exist?

ATW

[_Z_]

At the wellspring. Hi



I agree with your optimism lol, if we compare now to ancient times, I think humanity has come a long way indeed! This brings me to another reason for evil…

Think of what the ancients were like! E.g. the scythians [lived around the Ukraine area], used to cut out the hearts of their enemies in mid battle eat them and drink their blood. Much of what our ancestors did is probably in our genes! So when people do depraved things it may be literally within them.



The reason why I think good and evil are like yin and yang is because of how it appears to change according to society e.g. during WWII people were ‘on each others side’ so to say, my grand parents said how much it had changed and wondered why we have ‘neighbours from hell’ and people generally at each others throats [on many levels]. It is as if evil wasn’t being fed by war so it aimed at a different target!



The duality thing has been plaguing my mind for some time. It leads me to the idea that god and Satan are the same being, that in order to create one must have duality at the core! But god doesn’t see things as separate entities with edges as we do, so I think duality is our illusion.



But where then does that leave the devil? As you say, seeing things as black and white, is a stark view of two extremes, whereas nature and humanity lies somewhere in the grey area. Then yes, much of what we view as evil changes according to ones worldview.



I think yes we could all be potentially evil, if ones religion is strict enough then we are all evil . Perhaps some people were Viking who was praised for their brutality in their former lives. Who knows! But I do think that even if rebirth is true & if ancient genes have an effect, then we still have the will! We can stop ourselves being evil. One must be careful in our accusations imho, as once someone has said to themselves ‘I am evil’ or ‘I am bad’, this is the beginning point from where further more atrocious acts may emanate! This is why I would say it is better to not use terms like evil – I was once called evil & a Satanist because I took my children to avebury stone circle for a day out, its lucky I got a sense of humour eh!



At birth I would say we are all a little of both & that probably doesn’t change. I have never ‘seen’ anyone who I thought was a demon soul, although some people seam much ‘darker’ than others. This depends on if there is a reality that is evil? Greed, power & things like that are – I would say – simply animalistic natures. We should remember that we are animals and when the boundaries are taken away, like in times of war, then some act like animals – but are animals evil or natural?



I too think that our default is goodness, as this is also a part of our natural humanity. We are constructive, thus we build & make things that go wrong – go Wright.



So this leaves us at two points…



Is evil a real thing [even if spirit]?



Is good greater & does it slowly gain ground over evil? Thus there is not a yin yang balance, or there is something greater than this principle!!!? Perhaps if we bring many principles in to the equasion, we see a bigger picture e.g. oneness X good divided by evil = a greater good! Hmm…



Z

[At_the_Wellspring]

Hi Z

I agree that as soon as someone recognises or says "I am evil" it is most likely to lead to darker thoughts and actions, as it is such an 'affirming' sentence and powerful thought. So I see the danger in that, and I would say that generally underneath it all everyone (or most people) believe that they are a 'good' person. But while someone is a good person they can still recognise potential for 'evil' (though that is a strong and possibly not the right word).

The example I'm thinking of is from my mum, who said that being a young mum with 3 kids under 3 would, like I imagine all mothers do, got so tired, so stressed out, having not much adult contact during the day, would be sometimes near 'breaking point'. At the time there was a mother in the same suburb who had be preparing dinner and just got pushed by her kids to that breaking point and ended up turning her cutting-carrots knife onto her child. I know that is a bit of an extreme story, but for my mum it sticks vividly in her memory, because she remembers kind of understanding the possibility of that happening.

I guess I think it is healthier to recognise the circumstances, stress and pressure that 'normal' people can be placed under and how that affects their actions (another example being war and its atrocities), trying to understand it rather than categorise those people as different and just fundamentally evil, and I would never never do anything like that. But then, as the counter-argument, circumstances can help us understand a hurtful act, but it is no excuse for it.


In terms of people being born with a bit of both - I would say thats true, there is something in our genes, in our cultural history, in our human nature which makes us that way, but I do think people can always change and learn to control violent reactions etc. It is just whether or not these people have the support systems in place to help them along the way (like in the other story as well). While we are individuals and need to learn to control negative thoughts and reactions ourselves, I still see that society is involved in the responsibility of minimising the negative circumstances in which evil is most likely to rear its ugly head. Though even without war and desperation, would evil still exist, like you say, just in a different form?

Being an optimist i do think it can be reduced and minimised further and further.. no more eating the hearts of our enemies on the battlefield... no more war... recognition of greed and spreading of resources more equally... minimisation and elimination of exploitation...abuse... violence... i can see the possibility of it eventually happening, it is just a question of whether we completely run the earths resources to nil, or blow ourselves up before we have the chance to get there..


I'm sidetracking now... so what is evil? Animalistic behaviours are they bad? I don't think they are bad in themselves, because we wouldn't consider one animal more evil than another. But then humans I think are different, because we have a consciousness which means we can consider the whole picture, analyse our own actions, and I think we should be able to recognise that the 'survival' of the entire planet and its systems is important rather than placing our immediate and momentary needs as priority.


So maybe 'evil' is just a human interpretation rather than being 'real'? My understanding of the term is that it is the extreme of anger, hatred, being brutal and hurtful to others, or having no regard whatsoever, no empathy, no connection to others that life of others is not valued. It tends to go along with the idea that this evil or evil person is 'non-human' - the idea of Satan as 'possessing' people makes it seem like evil comes from outside of a person rather than from within human nature. Maybe labelling 'evil' as a separate person from ourselves is giving us the excuse that it is not really our fault, someone else to blame? So I guess in some ways I don't believe in this version of evil, because I recognise it as something that comes from within ourselves, perhaps brought out in extreme and ugly circumstances, rather than coming from a source outside of ourselves which is trying to take over the world...

[Popeyesays]

"In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws -- if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice. But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied.

That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 250)

[_Z_]

At the wellspring.



Yes there are millions of stories like that in every country. As you say ‘it is no excuse for evil’, but is it not? If people are pushed to extremes beyond normal human endurance, then some if not all the blame should be placed on that which pushes! As an anarchist I believe that no one is ‘a criminal’ or ‘evil’, everyone [yes everyone!] is simply human. Events change our attitudes and things build up inside, in order to stop this then the environment for evil needs to be stopped at its root. Thus it is the responsibility of society to make life bearable for our fellow man, and not to condemn and judge the individual, as we are a product of our environment – in the main. Contrarily we have responsibilities as individuals to not go out of control.



In the end/at the beginning, all shall return to the one – the place beyond infinity. The ‘power of this’ is also a force to add to the equation of good/evil balance. Oneness is nether good nor evil, yet it has the effect of harmonising but evil can do nothing with it [although emptiness has a negative side]. But when added it must be like a third factor that drives us & nature towards good.



We humans are more advanced than animals yet my pet dog is way more psychic than any human! But yes we can see a bigger picture.



Maybe labelling 'evil' as a separate person from ourselves is giving us the excuse that it is not really our fault, someone else to blame?



Excellent point! Isn’t that just what people often do! Make excuses to externalise blame. Having something non-tangible like the devil, means that others cant find a cause – this cannot be helpful, so I would say that looking to real worldly events circumstances and environments, should come before blaming Satan – and then Satan would cease to exist – eh!



Z