Ex-Republican gives dire warning!

Tao_Equus · 07-23-2007, 07:22 PM

I came across the following report and thought as it related closely to recent talks I would share it here.

Excerpt:
Thom Hartmann began his program on Thursday by reading from a new Executive Order which allows the government to seize the assets of anyone who interferes with its Iraq policies.
He then introduced old-line conservative Paul Craig Roberts -- a former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Reagan who has recently become known for his strong opposition to the Bush administration and the Iraq War -- by quoting the "strong words" which open Roberts' latest column: "Unless Congress immediately impeaches Bush and Cheney, a year from now the US could be a dictatorial police state at war with Iran."

"I don't actually think they're very strong," said Roberts of his words. "I get a lot of flak that they're understated and the situation is worse than I say. ... When Bush exercises this authority [under the new Executive Order] ... there's no check to it. It doesn't have to be ratified by Congress. The people who bear the brunt of these dictatorial police state actions have no recourse to the judiciary. So it really is a form of total, absolute, one-man rule. ... The American people don't really understand the danger that they face." Taken from here : The Raw Story | Old-line Republican warns 'something's in the works' to trigger a police state

Anyone heard of this guy? Is the warning to be taken seriously?

Tao

Dondi · 07-23-2007, 07:28 PM

Hey, off topic, Tao, but that's a cool horse avatar.

Tao_Equus · 07-23-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Hey, off topic, Tao, but that's a cool horse avatar.

Ty, Sally found it for me for which I am grateful

dauer · 07-23-2007, 07:36 PM

Based on the wikipedia entry on him he's got a strong background, but that comment seems in line with his general thinking, for example:

Quote:

I do not know what happened on 9/11, and I don’t expect to ever find out. Neither government nor media show any interest in providing us with anything except a political commission’s report...

"Anyone who depends on print, TV, or right-wing talk radio media is totally misinformed. The Bush administration has achieved a de facto Ministry of Propaganda...

But he seems to be critical of everyone as he also says, ""In their hatred of "the rich," the left-wing overlooks that in the 20th century the rich were the class most persecuted by government. The class genocide [in communist societies] of the 20th century is the greatest genocide in history."

Those quotes are all from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts

Dauer

Tao_Equus · 07-23-2007, 07:54 PM

Thanks for the pointer Dauer, which I have now read. Seems to me this guy is an intelligent and credible voice. I especially agree with his take on 9/11.

Tao

Pathless · 07-24-2007, 04:42 AM

Thanks, Tao, for something else to be afraid of.

Er... I'm still trying to figure out what the fuh an "Executive Order" actually is and what kind of power is behind these crackpot edicts. They seem patently undemocratic and one has to wonder where the hell "Executive Orders" first appear in American history. Definitely a topic for further research.

I don't know about the dire warning, though. It's clear to nearly everyone at this point that Bush is an idiot and a war-monger and that he does not represent the American people. Perhaps I am being naive, but I cannot take something as ridiculous as these new rashes of "Executive Orders" very seriously. Rather than being real threats, I prefer to see them as last-ditch efforts by an administration of total fools and swine. The *******s will be impeached soon enough.

Pathless · 07-24-2007, 04:45 AM

Besides, if we do take this seriously, we have to also take seriously the fact that the majority of Americans would be targets of this "Order". Hey, here's a great idea, Cheney: let's put most the damn country in prison so we can bomb the Middle East into a slag pit full of free oil.

Duh. Who's gonna buy the product, though, if everyone's in jail?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I came across the following report and thought as it related closely to recent talks I would share it here.

Excerpt:
Thom Hartmann began his program on Thursday by reading from a new Executive Order which allows the government to seize the assets of anyone who interferes with its Iraq policies.
He then introduced old-line conservative Paul Craig Roberts -- a former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Reagan who has recently become known for his strong opposition to the Bush administration and the Iraq War -- by quoting the "strong words" which open Roberts' latest column: "Unless Congress immediately impeaches Bush and Cheney, a year from now the US could be a dictatorial police state at war with Iran."

"I don't actually think they're very strong," said Roberts of his words. "I get a lot of flak that they're understated and the situation is worse than I say. ... When Bush exercises this authority [under the new Executive Order] ... there's no check to it. It doesn't have to be ratified by Congress. The people who bear the brunt of these dictatorial police state actions have no recourse to the judiciary. So it really is a form of total, absolute, one-man rule. ... The American people don't really understand the danger that they face." Taken from here : The Raw Story | Old-line Republican warns 'something's in the works' to trigger a police state

Anyone heard of this guy? Is the warning to be taken seriously?

Tao

Tao_Equus · 07-24-2007, 10:28 AM

Hi Pathless,

Bush/Cheney et al have very good reasons for passing such edicts, trillion dollar reasons. When you actually sit back and think of the whole picture, fit all the pieces together, from Osama's close friendship with the Bush family, to the Bush's family being responsible for security at both the world trade centre and Dulles Airport, to the oil interests, to Osama's brother being a guest of the Bush's on that fateful day, to the companies that have made billions 'prosecuting' the war and who in these companies is making the big money. I think you have to be absurdly naive to ignore all that. And remember there is not a single 'debunker' that does not work for someone connected to this evil little group.

Mr Roberts calls the Bush lot a bunch of Brownshirts. And he is entirely correct. Bush's grandaddy was prevented from taking the US into a Nazi style dictatorship, but that did not prevent him making the family fortune laundering Nazi money in the US. It would not surprise me in the least to find an altar replete with swastika's and iron eagles secreted somewhere within the Bush house. It is a family ideology that has never been renounced.

So you put the big picture together what do you have? You have a small group of people who think they can get away with blatantly disregarding democracy, legal redress, or even any real public scrutiny. Lets face it if they got away with 9/11 and Iraq they feel unstoppable, all powerful. And now these edicts start appearing. There is no-one who can come rescue the USA. Bush/affiliates want no more than the 2 other world powers already enjoy, Putin and Jintao already exercise the same totalitarian grip Bush so desires. The edicts you see him passing are uncannily reminiscent of the kind of powers Putin gave himself, and those that the Chinese leaders have long had. Democracy has always been an illusion in the US. Soon, I fear, you will no longer even have that. Sad days indeed.

Tao

dauer · 07-24-2007, 11:47 AM

Pathless,

I don't think they'd have to jail everyone, just enough important people to get the rest to toe the line.

TE,

I'm not sure, for many people, that the illusion of democracy will ever be shaken. the gov't has a vested interest in using whatever doublespeak necessary to reinforce that belief. The only type of shift that a good chunk of the country might buy into is a front as a Christian country. But that could also lead to some parts of the US going their own way, or trying to.

Dauer

Pathless · 07-24-2007, 05:58 PM

What is not being mentioned here is the ever-growing popular resistance against Bush/Cheney throughout the entire country, on the popular level as well as the representative level. Also do not forget that Executive Orders do not have the force of law, and both the EOs which have recently come up as points of concern on these forums are clearly abuses of power.

Yes, TE, Bush and his lineage may very well be closet Nazis. They certainly have had their sick fun inciting in this country a reactionary love affair with fascism and uber-nationalism. Fortunately, though, that is not the current state of affairs. Bush, Cheney, and the rest of their faux-Christian, hate-filled, war-mongering crew do not represent the people of this country. They are on their way out.

Is democracy in this country a sham and a farce? At times. Has it always been so? I'm not so sure. I think that we have a lot of work to do to truly become a participatory democratic society. I also believe that the system in place does work, albeit very slowly.

What I don't believe are the paranoid ravings of Mr Roberts. I don't know what his experience or motivation is, and I would also like to state that I am not just turning a blind eye to his "dire warning." I do think that it is overstated, and that he's not too far from the spirit of Bush/Cheney in his attempts to rile up the American public with panic and fear. The lame duck is not going to become dictator. That is not going to be allowed. Shrill screaming and wide-eyed palpatations of the kind that Mr Roberts is indulging in serve the same purpose as a heightened national security rating. Remember code orange, threat level orange, all that bogus collective-psyche bludgeoning? To me, the "dire warning!" is the same damn thing, or at least serves the same ultimate purpose: to get masses of people frazzled and breathless, running this way and that, filling the streets with collective panic and chaotic energy. "Dire warning!"s are just as Orwellian and mind-controllish as any all-channel news bulletin trumpeting out the latest barely foiled terrorist plot. More propaganda? C'mon, we don't need that.

wil · 07-24-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pathless

What is not being mentioned here is the ever-growing popular resistance against Bush/Cheney throughout the entire country, on the popular level as well as the representative level. Also do not forget that Executive Orders do not have the force of law, and both the EOs which have recently come up as points of concern on these forums are clearly abuses of power.

Our country is currently dissatisfied with our gov't, for the past two months there hasn't been a hair width of difference in the ratings between the administration and congress...

Executive Orders have the force of law until they are overturned by the courts...they basically circumvent the system and when one has an EO that sets the courts aside...who is going to overturn it??

Pathless · 07-24-2007, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Our country is currently dissatisfied with our gov't, for the past two months there hasn't been a hair width of difference in the ratings between the administration and congress...

If you want to split hairs at the poll, fine. The feeling on the street is much different than what you get in any media-saavy poll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Executive Orders have the force of law until they are overturned by the courts...they basically circumvent the system and when one has an EO that sets the courts aside...who is going to overturn it??

Do they? I don't know. The information given at wikipedia is vague:

US Presidents have issued executive orders since 1789, usually to help direct the operation of executive officers. Some orders do have the force of law when made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress, when those acts give the President discretionary powers.

It should also be noted that a similar EO to the one being pushed forward by Bush was implemented by Roosevelt. Again, from wikipedia, my generic source of info on this topic:

One extreme example of an executive order is Executive Order 9066, where Franklin D. Roosevelt delegated military authority to remove all people (used to target specifically Japanese Americans and German Americans) in a military zone. The authority delegated to General John L. DeWitt subsequently paved the way for all Japanese-Americans on the West Coast to be sent to internment camps for the duration of World War II. Thousands of German Americans and Italian Americans were also sent to internment camps under executive order.

wil · 07-24-2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pathless

It should also be noted that a similar EO to the one being pushed forward by Bush was implemented by Roosevelt. Again, from wikipedia, my generic source of info on this topic:

One extreme example of an executive order is Executive Order 9066, where Franklin D. Roosevelt delegated military authority to remove all people (used to target specifically Japanese Americans and German Americans) in a military zone. The authority delegated to General John L. DeWitt subsequently paved the way for all Japanese-Americans on the West Coast to be sent to internment camps for the duration of World War II. Thousands of German Americans and Italian Americans were also sent to internment camps under executive order.

Perfect example of how an executive order can be immediately put into effect by law enforcement and the military...ever been to one of these camps??

In the 80's the one in Tulelake CA still had the 12' fences and barbwire, you still entered the compound through one gate...only one way in and out, fire hazard?? The buildings which housed the Japanese have been converted to apartments still no insulation you freeze in the winter (tule goes below zero regularly during the winter) and cook in the summer. Hard to believe the conditions they lived in. I understand that now, some or all of it is converted to a museum.

dauer · 07-24-2007, 07:27 PM

I found a video with images from the camps and a lot of the anti-japanese polemic in the states YouTube - Japanese Internment: This is the Enemy

Tao_Equus · 07-25-2007, 04:50 PM

Hi Pathless,
I wish I shared your optimism. The trouble with gauging opinion 'on the street' is that by and large the people you talk to will hold pretty similar views to yourself. Here in the UK in 1992 no-one 'on the street' doubted for a second that the Conservative party would be kicked from power, it did not happen, they won.
You can argue over the nature of what an Executive Order is or is not. But the nature of the powers granted in the recent EO's is troublesome. I have become convinced in recent months that 9/11 was no terrorist attack. I did not want to believe it. But I was left with no option after weighing all the evidence. As I have dug deeper and deeper I have no doubt that 9/11 is the American equivalent to the Riechstag Fire. I am currently working on an extended essay on this which I will post in due course. But for now I make this point, how emboldened, how above the law does getting away with such a crime make somebody? If you can pull off 9/11 under the eyes of your own people and get away with it you feel like you can do anything. This is the worry. Bush himself may not be the sharpest tool in the box but he does not act alone, he is intimately aware of the truth but his role is the figurehead, not the captain nor the navigator. I hope I am reading too much into all I have been reading but to be blunt the people behind this have a long history and its not a pretty one. This most recent campaign is their boldest yet and may mark a turn point where they begin to openly reveal their totalitarian ideology. They are fed up with the whinging and have open contempt for those they have led a fools march and Only time will tell what their next move is.

Tao