Existentialism

Postmaster · 01-21-2009, 05:44 PM

I'm not sure how far the knowledge of the Baha'is is here. But I've been doing alot of reading on existentialism recently and it appears to me the Baha'i faith is an existential preaching religion. Would you agree with this? And if so how important is it to the Baha'i faith?

"Existentialism is a philosophical movement which posits that individuals create the meaning and essence of their lives, as opposed to it being created for them by deities or authorities or defined for them by philosophical or theological doctrines".

Although it’s a modern philosophical movement I believe it is also shared with Buddhist theology too.

I think Soren Kierkegaard was the father of Existentialism in the west and I recently had a fascination with him since a member here pointed him out to me. He uses a knight analogy

"Most people live dejectedly in worldly sorrow and joy; they are the ones who sit along the wall and do not join in the dance. The knights of infinity are dancers and possess elevation. They make the movements upward, and fall down again; and this too is no mean pastime, nor ungraceful to behold. But whenever they fall down they are not able at once to assume the posture, they vacillate an instant, and this vacillation shows that after all they are strangers in the world. This is more or less strikingly evident in proportion to the art they possess, but even the most artistic knights cannot altogether conceal this vacillation. One need not look at them when they are up in the air, but only the instant they touch or have touched the ground–then one recognizes them. But to be able to fall down in such a way that the same second it looks as if one were standing and walking, to transform the leap of life into a walk, absolutely to express the sublime in the pedestrian–that only the knight of faith can do–and this is the one and only prodigy".

There is points that make a Knight of faith. I know of only 2. 1 is a knight of faith never teaches only witnesses and the other is knight of faith is non Partisan. However I disagree with the no.1 but not no.2.

arthra · 01-21-2009, 06:15 PM

Hi there Postmaster!

Thanks for the question..

As far as I know the Baha'i Faith has never been characterised as an "existential preaching religion" before..

We don't really have preachers and the existentialists I know about like Jean Paul Sartre and others wouldn't really be Baha'is as far as I can tell...

Baha'i Faith would be a revealed religion..that is a religion or Faith found on Divine Revelation like Islam, Christianity, Judaism or Zoroastrianism.

Moreover, Existentialism as such is also not mentioned in the Writings.

But there was an essay posted by Ian Kluge on Baha'i Existentialism at

Introduction to Baha'i Existentialism

You might like to read that.. but for most Baha'is I doubt very much the appellation of existentialism would be comfortable..or welcome.

- Art

Postmaster · 01-21-2009, 06:37 PM

by that I mean there is aspects of the Baha'i faith that relate to Existentialism.

O Son of Spirit! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Netti-Netti · 01-21-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

"Existentialism is a philosophical movement which posits that individuals create the meaning and essence of their lives, as opposed to it being created for them by deities or authorities or defined for them by philosophical or theological doctrines".

Hi, PM,

That would be atheistic existentialism.

Quote:

Although it’s a modern philosophical movement I believe it is also shared with Buddhist theology too.

I would say almost any religion that includes an aspect of G-d's ongoing involvement and individual participation in the Divine scheme of things could be described as existential. The ethical dimension that we associate with here-and-now applications of faith can be regarded as more or less explicitly being an "existential" dimension that makes the religion more than than merely self-serving/ defensive/comforting or merely socially adaptive.

Some would argue that the Path of Devotion is a core existential element in any personal theistic religion. It is said to influence even Buddhism as an existential ethos. The idea of the Path of Devotion (as distinct from the Path of Knowledge and the Path of Action) is much older than that, though.

There's a lot of stuff on Christian existentialism that would probably fit in with the Baha'i Faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

O Son of Spirit! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

I see the bold part as having more to do with the primacy of personal experience and judgment than with existentiality. The part about the Gift of Justice has more of an existential quality.

To my way of thinking the existential pertains to the internalization of aims and lures, values and goals, religious duty or vocation. These things could easily be based in an external source of authority and still be authentic.

arthra · 01-21-2009, 08:14 PM

Netti Netti,

Thanks for your post...and a warm welcome to the Baha'i Forum!

Other than the essay i posted above I personally know of few Baha'is that would call themselves existentialists... and again there's really nothing in our Writings on the subject as such..

- Art

Netti-Netti · 01-21-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthra

Netti Netti,

Thanks for your post...and a warm welcome to the Baha'i Forum!

Other than the essay i posted above I personally know of few Baha'is that would call themselves existentialists... and again there's really nothing in our Writings on the subject as such..

- Art

Thank you, Art.

I don't think the term "existential" needs to be invoked necessarily. I would say the Judeo-Christian tradition is very existential at its core and many authors in those traditions are concerned with an existential approach to their religion without actually using the term "existential." I imagine very few Christian and Jewish existentialists would specifically call themselves existentialists. I'd expect to see more of that in the Philosophy Department.

For religionists, I think existentiality is usually less than a formal philosophic ideology and more of an ethos that pervades here-and-now concerns regarding personal identity, quality of relationhips, immediacy of salvation concepts, psychological meaning of ritual, etc.

arthra · 01-21-2009, 08:48 PM

Thanks for your post.. Netti Netti.

If you have the time you might like to read the essay I posted above by Ian Kluge..

Have a good day!

- Art

Postmaster · 01-23-2009, 08:49 AM

Thanks Netti-Netti

smkolins · 01-23-2009, 11:44 AM

Gotta chime in here - existentialism is one of the things I got alittle into on my way to the Baha'i Faith....

I agree with Netti-Netti. While atheistic Existentialists would not describe themselves as religious or motivated by spirituality they are motivated by taking personal responsibility for their ethics. Religionists can come at the same place from a different perspective but for most characterizations of religionists, especially by atheists, and perhaps not a few ways things are actually experienced among many religionists, religion is a way of NOT taking personal responsibility for one's ethics. In other words most religions are experienced as setting rules about how people should live but with no self-discovery. Like the physics labs we've all taken since the 1850's (like the force table with pulleys and weights) it can seem like we're supposed to fill in the blank with the same answers all the time and as long as we're good at doing that then it can seem in some circles that we've succeeded as believers. But I'd contend with Netti-Netti that religionists who really wrestle with their Faith (and faith) do take personal responsibility just like atheistic Existentialists. At some level it's a question of taking books seriously - I mean that whoever we are, at some point our motivation for doing or not doing something can be affected by what we read and think. If that impact becomes important enough then we have to "get" what we read and think rather than simply echo what is in front of us. That's when we get to see with our own eyes.... That struggle is what the Seven Valleys (and similar works) explores. This dual angle on coming to grips with what one really believes reminds me of an unsubstantiated quote of Abdu'l-Baha's - it is said that He said this to an atheist that "We don't believe in the same God you don't believe in." We are not supposed to be motivated by fear of hell or love of heaven. Perhaps a key difference is that not everyone is in a place for that self-discovery and religion can serve to keep the peace somewhat by making a world of expected behaviors and religion allows for that while atheistic existentialists simply assume civilization would hang around waiting for them to get it. But civilization does require a degree of input to stay self-sustaining. But when a good number (I don't know if it reaches a majority) of people start getting it as it seems happens roughly 3-700 years after a religious Founder, then civilization does a great deal more than simply be self-sustaining.

And the virtue of wrestling with what one really believes is also part of the shadowy quality of this world. It's a place where we can decide to "get" it. And we can decide not to. But either way this world is not so welcoming of either. Our attitude and inclination waxes and wains. If the importance of the virtue were "forced" on us, then then the value of the decision would be diminished. But since great spiritual faith has such a high value, then it's revealed value is in the next world and in this world we are free to wain in our spirit, and civilization can totter. Coming out of that period will tend to emphasize those issues as if they were the entire context of life but the fact that we are working that work over the last couple hundred years is to me one of the signs that we are coming out of that phase of history, that Something is afoot. All those expectations across the religions of a Coming mean something....

Netti-Netti · 01-23-2009, 11:48 PM

"...thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge .... "

Quote:

Originally Posted by smkolins

At some level it's a question of taking books seriously - I mean that whoever we are, at some point our motivation for doing or not doing something can be affected by what we read and think. If that impact becomes important enough then we have to "get" what we read and think rather than simply echo what is in front of us. That's when we get to see with our own eyes....

Yes, and for the true seeker the impact will include motive force for implementing the morality that is part of religion.

In retrospect, it is too limiting to suggestion that the existential is limited to the moment of decision and the aspiration to virtue, as I did in Post #4. To "know of thine own knowledge" can be the "existential attitude" that is personal faith (John MacQuarrie). It is an attitude that involves also includes an approach to seeking. It's not limited to specific beliefs or ideological claims (e.g., concerning the supernatural). MacQuarrie describes the attitude as essentially cognitive. I'm inclined to see it as passion. In Bahá'u'lláh's words, it is an "awakening of the heart, the soul, and the spirit" that leads to the acquisition of "a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind":

Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within the seeker's heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his being.

When Revelation is internalized, one can see the underlying inspiration and apply its meaning:

Gazing with the eye of God, the seeker will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude. The seeker will discover in all things the mysteries of Divine Revelation, and the evidences of an everlasting Manifestation.

I'd say faith is the attitude/perspective-taking that lets you see Revelation as Revelation made to you. At that point, it truly becomes a Living Revelation, a present instance of G-d initiating dialogue with you every where you go.

Postmaster · 01-24-2009, 09:06 PM

Good points Netti-Netti..

The Baha'i faith is really the only religion with the accpetion of Buddism and maybe parts of Judaism that allows for the Indepenent investigation of truth however whats different with the Baha'i faith compared to the other religions is that its a fundemental principle to the Baha'i faith. Thats all that existentialism is. To say that Baha'is would be unwelcoming by me saying this or it not being welcome I can't really understand. Existentialism is also very important to western political theorys.

Netti-Netti · 01-24-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Thats all that existentialism is.

Hello again PM. Say a little more, please.

Postmaster · 01-24-2009, 10:52 PM

ok by definition from princeton its

existential - relating to or dealing with existence (especially with human existence)
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Postmaster · 01-24-2009, 11:23 PM

Hey, ok by definition

the belief that one shapes one's basic nature through the direction of life one chooses to live.
london.sonoma.edu/Essays/glossary.html

That’s how I take it in its basic form.. I'd say it’s not letting anything external to manipulate your freewill choice but to some extent it will, anything and everything will. But to me whats important is that it’s acknowledged and preached because as humans we have a tendency to be anti-existential towards each others. Once you acknowledged this in a system (and we do need systems) then it’s all good. We need to culturally internalise this until we realise the next best way to live by. It takes one to acknowledge and preach and then you create leading by example, people are naturally drawn to harmonious ways which have no limit.

first post was error.

arthra · 01-25-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Good points Netti-Netti..

The Baha'i faith is really the only religion with the accpetion of Buddism and maybe parts of Judaism that allows for the Indepenent investigation of truth however whats different with the Baha'i faith compared to the other religions is that its a fundemental principle to the Baha'i faith. Thats all that existentialism is. To say that Baha'is would be unwelcoming by me saying this or it not being welcome I can't really understand. Existentialism is also very important to western political theorys.

Yes you're correct about independent investigation of reality and that allows for scientific enquiry as well and the harmony between science and religion.. but the term existentialism is problematic as people think of existentialists such as Albert Camus or Jean Paul Sartre when the term comes up, thus it can be misleading.

As far as "western political theory" this also can be misleading.. there is a perspective of a future Baha'i state but it is based on non-partisanship and the recognition of Baha'i principles that transcend simply "western political theory" in my view..so we don't align ourselves as Baha'is with a particular political philosophy or with say existentialism per se..

Hope that helps!

- Art