Extinction Central

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thank you flow, I would much prefer the plain folks stuff. You never know, hubby and I might frighten the life out of you and take you up on that one day.

Cyberpi has just got a bee in his bonnet because he thinks I hate America - I don't, my country has just as many failings but I do not think America is the be all and end of of right and good, nowhere is. I am sorry if that offends his patriotic streak but I am not going to buy into the All Hail the USA hype.

Hi MW, salaam:

Us plain folk would surely welcome y'all if and when y'all be a' comin'...and don't worry about a'scarin' ussins. Many have tried and have eventually failed miserably many times over the term of my existence. Most American are just good people you'll find..of course that usually equates with their degree of self-importance and arrogance as it does everywhere else.

As for C'pi, I believe that the bee(s) migrated from his bonnet to his nether regions quite some time ago, but...c'est la vie my sweet .

flow....

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Cyberpi has just got a bee in his bonnet because he thinks I hate America

Now you you claim to know what I think about you? I think you clearly love America.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am sorry if that offends his patriotic streak but I am not going to buy into the All Hail the USA hype.

Are you assuming now that I am offended? I didn't see any USA hype... where was it?

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Will you please climb down off your high horse Cyberpi. Sorry but America is far from perfect, as with all countries.

Who claimed America was perfect? I've noticed a trend where you finger a statistic and say something like:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Oh and look at the USA 231 species extinct - what are you doing over there??? Whatever it is please stop it.

So I responded but now I am directly or indirectly labelled as an offended patriot sitting on a high horse, blind to my countries failings, of thinking you are angry at the USA, having a degree of self-importance, arrogant, and apparently smelling B******T being fed to me by a D.C. spin machine. I also apparently have a bee somewhere I don't know about.

Good grief... I am questioning the validity of the statistic as a comparison and a singling out of the USA by you, and as a citizen of the USA being asked by a foreigner to stop whatever I am doing... I think I have a right and a responsibility to. That doesn't mean I'm thus ignorant or arrogant... that doesn't mean I'm on a high horse... that doesn't mean I think the USA is better than the countries you know... that doesn't mean I think you are angry at the USA... that doesn't mean I am being fed BS by some spin machine... that doesn't mean I am necessarily for any action the Bush administration has taken in regards to the US (or foreign) environments... that doesn't mean I am necessarily blind to my countries alleged failings... that doesn't mean I have a bee anywhere on me... and that doesn't mean I am just being a patriot of the USA. If it did... surely you can fix me of all these ailments I now have for responding in opposition to the validity of the statistic you asked Americans to do something about.

If I were in the Middle East and talking about the oil reserves that a country had, would I be labelled a male-oriented patriot on a high camel? Will you and Flow be providing more personal labels as I challenge your statistic and discuss the biodiversity in the USA?

I am under the impression that the USA has greater biodiversity and quantity of species than Europe, Northern Africa, and the Middle East. Each of those combined, I don't know. My point is that the USA territorily is a wide range of habitats and climates, rivers, lakes, an Eastern and Western coast, desert, Hawaii and Alaska. The USA territorily has a fair number of species in it, and with the Endangered Species Act there are a lot of those species identified, counted, and tracked by full time employees of the government. They also track some foreign endangered species... but not all of them. My point is... I suggest that the statistic you provided needs to be expressed as a percentage of counted species to remove both the granularity and effort placed into species tracking and counting, and as an expression of any loss in local biodiversity. For example if there are only 10 bird species identified in an area by one group as competing for local resources, and another group identifies 100 species of birds competing for resources in another area, then the loss of an identified species from one area will have a much greater impact on the local biodiversity and food chain than in the other area. So I am directly questioning the validity of the statistic you have drawn my attention to and told me that I am ignorant of my countries failing, and have asked some Americans to do something about.

What label will I now receive for providing further challenge and insight? More labels of ignorance or arrogance? Maybe an environment hater? Maybe an animal killer? A dirty industrial capitalist?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hi MW, salaam:

Us plain folk would surely welcome y'all if and when y'all be a' comin'...and don't worry about a'scarin' ussins. Many have tried and have eventually failed miserably many times over the term of my existence. Most American are just good people you'll find..of course that usually equates with their degree of self-importance and arrogance as it does everywhere else.

Hi Flow

and I thought Arabic was hard to learn!!!! Do they do American/English translation books for tourists?

I feel sure that America is full of decent, kind, friendly people - as is England and Egypt and everywhere else. It just takes a few rotten apples to spoil a crop (and get media attention).

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

self-importance, arrogant, and apparently smelling B******T being fed to me by a D.C. spin machine. I also apparently have a bee somewhere I don't know about.

Self importance and arrogance, you have got to be kidding. Let me explain where I am coming from on this. My comment about the US and whatever you are doing please stop was meant to be light hearted but with an underlying concern. The figures for the US simply stood out on the list. If it had been Sweden or China I would have said the same thing.

It is my belief that before the arrival of the Europeans in the US, the American Indians respected the land and nothing was hunted to extinction. You are free to correct me if I am wrong. Then 'we' all started arriving and brought with us our love of money and lack of respect for land. Same issue in Australia with the Aboriginal culture - we buggered their land up too.

You do have one of the most biodiverse areas in the world and it is worrying for outsiders to see that being treated with a lack of respect. It is pretty much too late for us, we have knackered our countries but your country is still young and as such you have a responsibilty not to follow in our footsteps. Europe is now trying to fight the tide, return the land where possible back to a natural state.

The industrial revolution began in my country, we then had policemen walking in front of buses with lanterns because the smog was so bad you could not see 10 feet in front of you. The world watches America, we want you to get right what we got wrong and at the present time your country is worrying us. We see your governments policy of rejecting global warming and American corporations ripping down rainforests to earn a quick buck.

We are talking on more than one thread at the moment and our conversations are exclusively about the US and it's policies. Discussion is good but you have to accept that us foreigners have views about the US and t they are doing in the world.

Perhaps you could comment on the following, this is the sort of thing that is worrying people around the world that care about conservation:


The outrageousness of Mr. Bush's comments about the new policy, whose substance belies their truthfulness, pales when the administration's newest proposal is examined. It is a policy that removes protection from endangered species around the world (that has been in place for almost 30 years) ... in order to protect endangered species around the world. On Oct. 12, it was reported that the administration proposes to again allow hunters, circuses and the pet industry to kill, capture and/or import animals that are near extinction in some parts of the world. By doing that, says the administration, we will be protecting those species from extinction. Under the new regulations American trophy hunters will be permitted to kill, among others, the straight-horned markhor in Pakistan, and Morelet's crocodile, an endangered freshwater crocodile whose skin is coveted by U.S. leather importers.

They will be permitted to capture the endangered Asian elephant of India and Southeast Asia who, American zoos and circuses believe, would be much happier living in this country than in their native habitat.

The proposal has been well considered. The administration has discovered that poor countries have no incentives to protect endangered species. By sending in American circuses, zoos and hunters who will pay those countries handsomely for the privilege of killing and capturing endangered species, those countries will be able to take the money and spend it on caring for whatever endangered species remain alive following the Bush sponsored plundering.

Ignoring the fact that the act has been consistently interpreted since 1973 to prohibit exactly the kind of activities the administration will now permit, David Smith, deputy assistant secretary at the Department of Interior for Fish and Wildlife and Parks said: "I think the nature of the beast [not the endangered ones] is such that there are critics who are going to claim some kind of ulterior motive." He's right.

Adam Roberts is one of those people.

Mr. Roberts is a senior research associate at the nonprofit Animal Welfare Institute, an advocacy group for endangered species. Commenting on the proposal he said: "It's a very dangerous precedent to decide that wildlife exploitation is in the best interest of wildlife." Stating what all but someone working for Mr. Bush would consider obvious, he said: "As soon as you place a financial price on the head of wild animals, the incentive is to kill the animal or capture them. The minute people find out they can have an easier time killing, shipping and profiting from wildlife, they will do so."

This is not the only proposal made by the administration to help out endangered species.
In August the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service proposed an exemption to the Wild Bird Conservation Act passed under the administration of George Bush I in 1992. The exemption will allow importation of the blue-fronted Amazon parrot from Argentina. The parrots sell for hundreds of dollars each. If approved, ten nesting parrots will be permitted to be harvested from five nests in every 250 acres of parrot habitat. Thanks to export tariffs, each 250-acre plot will produce $400 to $800 a year to help support the remaining parrots. The money can be used for such things as bird houses for the remaining parrots.

Without any doubt I can show you such things from any country in the world but American policy drives so many others, so this seems a worrying trend.

[Tao_Equus]

Cyberpi,

Be heartened dude!! At least non-Americans know more and care more about the US than the average American knows about our global village. Hope you keep some anti-histamine handy

Tao

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Self importance and arrogance, you have got to be kidding.

Flow's words.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

My comment about the US and whatever you are doing please stop was meant to be light hearted but with an underlying concern.

Yes, I agree, light hearted and heavy minded.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Then 'we' all started arriving and brought with us our love of money and lack of respect for land. Same issue in Australia with the Aboriginal culture - we buggered their land up too.

The dreaded 'We'?! You speak for a collective, the majority of which you've never seen?

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

You do have one of the most biodiverse areas in the world and it is worrying for outsiders to see that being treated with a lack of respect.

It is interesting to me when someone speaks of what they see after admitting that they have not seen it.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

It is pretty much too late for us, we have knackered our countries but your country is still young and as such you have a responsibilty not to follow in our footsteps.

Have you no faith?

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Europe is now trying to fight the tide, return the land where possible back to a natural state.

With face paint, according to you. America appears to me mostly composed of individuals, some of which might do one thing and some of which might do another. I tend to see a large animal being eaten whole when anyone speaks of what 'we' do.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The world watches America, we want you to get right what we got wrong and at the present time your country is worrying us.

... or what 'we' want.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

We see your governments policy of rejecting global warming and American corporations ripping down rainforests to earn a quick buck.

... or what 'we' see.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Discussion is good but you have to accept that us foreigners have views about the US and t they are doing in the world.

... and what 'we' view.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Perhaps you could comment on the following, this is the sort of thing that is worrying people around the world that care about conservation:

Perhaps I could... I think the image / propaganda meter is off the charts now so I'm going to pursue a bit of local reality until you get me those numbers. Then I might be happy to comment on someone else's comments for you once again.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Without any doubt I can show you such things from any country in the world but American policy drives so many others, so this seems a worrying trend.

Without any doubt. I am convinced that you can show me things from ANY country... especially the ones that you and I have never seen.

<< Sways back and forth >> << eyes getting sleepy now >> << Don't look behind the curtain >> << monotone voice coming to me >> "American policy drives so many other countries and this is a worrying trend." << SMACK >> << Wakes up now >>

What were we talking about? Thank you for answering my first question. I hope that you and I (avoiding all 'we' for now), do discuss that fear in the near future.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Be heartened dude!! At least non-Americans know more and care more about the US than the average American knows about our global village. Hope you keep some anti-histamine handy

I'll need all the histamine I can to get that plank out of my nose.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

and I thought Arabic was hard to learn!!!! Do they do American/English translation books for tourists?

Well on forums like this I use Alta Vista Babel Fish.

s.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

The dreaded 'We'?! You speak for a collective, the majority of which you've never seen?

I do not speak for Americans in any way, shape or form but I am aware that, with the exception the Native American Indian, all inhabitants of America are descendants of other countries and cultures.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

With face paint, according to you. America appears to me mostly composed of individuals, some of which might do one thing and some of which might do another. I tend to see a large animal being eaten whole when anyone speaks of what 'we' do.

Every country has individuals that do one thing or another but surely yopu accept that overall the 'country' tends to have one effect or another on it's environement.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Perhaps I could... I think the image / propaganda meter is off the charts now so I'm going to pursue a bit of local reality until you get me those numbers. Then I might be happy to comment on someone else's comments for you once again.

That is one way to avoid an issue and bury your head in the sand I supose. It explains much.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Without any doubt. I am convinced that you can show me things from ANY country... especially the ones that you and I have never seen.

I have this strange ability, it is called reading, I know it is bizarre isn't it. I have never been to space but I know that space junk is a problem we humans are causing. Or maybe that is all propaganda??

If your responses are a demonstration of American thinking then much is explained and 'we' have much to fear.

[flowperson]

Well I've found that a few people in America think a lot about lots of issues. But time is mostly the limiting factor in all of this. Having sufficient time to think and reflect is always an issue here. My observation is that most people here these days usually observe and react without much thought. But then, IMHO, that is a result of about two generations of media conditioning to manipulate us to behave that way.

Anyway, here's a couple of items of interest that I ran across recently.

Best....flow....

Europe Now Blamed for Decimation of American Bison | LiveScience

Scientists ask: Where have all the dolphins gone?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Anyway, here's a couple of items of interest that I ran across recently.

Yep that sounds like us Flow, arrive in a country kill things, then build ugly stuff!!!!

Was delighted to hear that the Bison population is recovering. Amazing what we can do when we just try.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Muslimwoman,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I do not speak for Americans in any way, shape or form but I am aware that, with the exception the Native American Indian, all inhabitants of America are descendants of other countries and cultures.

the so called "native americans" are immigrants to the north american land mass as well. in point of fact, no human species arose on any land mass in the Western Hemisphere. history seems to suggest that all humans are immigrants of African origin so i find your limiting of history to be curious.

Every country has individuals that do one thing or another but surely yopu accept that overall the 'country' tends to have one effect or another on it's environement.

quite frankly i think this is purely human hubris. it presumes that the biosphere is not capable of regenerating itself due to our activity. if it can regenerate itself after the various asteroid impacts that caused mass extinctions throughout earths history, it will not have much issue regenerating itself once we are gone.

of course, it's a continual process.. not like it just starts one day and stops another.. but humans tend to have a very short and myopic view regarding cosmic timescales.

I have this strange ability, it is called reading, I know it is bizarre isn't it.

do you proppose that reading about eating an orange is the same thing as actually eating one?

I have never been to space but I know that space junk is a problem we humans are causing. Or maybe that is all propaganda??

that would depend on whom you ask. many people on this forum, for instance, would immediately dismiss it if you said that you read that on Fox news. others would equally scoff at you if you said you read it in a western media publication.

If your responses are a demonstration of American thinking then much is explained and 'we' have much to fear.

that was intentionally rude and dismissive, quite unusual for you.

metta,

~v

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

the so called "native americans" are immigrants to the north american land mass as well. in point of fact, no human species arose on any land mass in the Western Hemisphere. history seems to suggest that all humans are immigrants of African origin so i find your limiting of history to be curious.

Hi V

I was just referring to the mass influx of immigrants from Europe (quite a short time ago by historical standards) and the effects that their industrialisation has had on the evironment. Most European cultures do not respect the earth we live on, as did native tribes before our arrival.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

quite frankly i think this is purely human hubris. it presumes that the biosphere is not capable of regenerating itself due to our activity. if it can regenerate itself after the various asteroid impacts that caused mass extinctions throughout earths history, it will not have much issue regenerating itself once we are gone.

I feel sure that the biosphere is capable of recovery, if humankind disappears. However we don't appear to be going anywhere in a hurry or showing signs of significantly changing our industrial methods. I do not see how it can recover while we continue our current activities.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

of course, it's a continual process.. not like it just starts one day and stops another.. but humans tend to have a very short and myopic view regarding cosmic timescales.

Ah, that would be our arrogance. We seem to think if we do not exist then nothing exists, as we are not there to witness it.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

do you proppose that reading about eating an orange is the same thing as actually eating one?

Not at all but the only way to learn about eating an orange, if you do not have access to an orange, is to ask someone that has eaten one (and probably written about it).

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

that would depend on whom you ask. many people on this forum, for instance, would immediately dismiss it if you said that you read that on Fox news. others would equally scoff at you if you said you read it in a western media publication.

I read about space junk in a science journal, although it was probably not the right one in someones opinion. There are also people on this forum that would disagree if I said in England today it is Tuesday. I am happy with people having differing views to me, or we would just be patting each other on the back for our utter brilliance but I do prefer it when people disagree respectfully.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

that was intentionally rude and dismissive, quite unusual for you.

You are right and I apologise to Cyberpi.

I am just getting a little tired of being spoken to in a certain manner, by a couple of people on CR. Maybe I need to hang out in the lounge more and keep my opinions to myself, I am getting snippy.

Salaam
MW

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Muslimwoman,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi V

I was just referring to the mass influx of immigrants from Europe (quite a short time ago by historical standards) and the effects that their industrialisation has had on the evironment. Most European cultures do not respect the earth we live on, as did native tribes before our arrival.

i'm not really sure that's accurate either... the druids, for instance, are a European cultural tradition which, as far as i know, was pretty concerned with the environment.. well.. not in the modern sense of the term, but you know what i mean.

it's not a new issue, really, it is part of the human experience.. the longer an object is associated with the less significant it seems to become.. sort of taken for granted, as it were. we do it today, still. i take for granted that a meteor is not going to destroy my home tomorrow even though i know that homes get destroyed by meteors.

i often have the impression that folks mean something a bit different than "respect for the enviornment"... what they often seem to be trying to say is more of a responsible usage of said enviornment.

I feel sure that the biosphere is capable of recovery, if humankind disappears. However we don't appear to be going anywhere in a hurry or showing signs of significantly changing our industrial methods. I do not see how it can recover while we continue our current activities.

the dinosaurs walked the earth for 650 million years.. a time so much longer than humans that it's nearly absurd. then, quite suddenly, they were gone. a flash of light and the earth was changed forever.

our NEAR teams are so undermanned and staffed that we've cataloged less than 10% of the objects which have a significant chance of impacting the earth. were such an event to be occuring, there is nothing we could do to stop it.

speaking of changing industrial methods.. the real issue isn't in the West any longer.. there are new technologies and methods which are being implemented and which are, demonstrably, having an effect. no, the real source of concern is east Asia where China, notably, has increased it's industrial output at an unprecedentend pace in modern history. often, this industrial process is illegal, such as the many coal mines that kill 13 miners a day in China, which then fuel powerplants that are not up to government codes but, strangely, are overlooked and allowed to keep operating.

i think it was early this year, i'd have to do some checking on when we actually discovered it, but pollution from Chinese coal mines is spreading across Canada and the United States at an alarming level.

Not at all but the only way to learn about eating an orange, if you do not have access to an orange, is to ask someone that has eaten one (and probably written about it).

but what have you actually learned about the taste of the orange? all the other person could do was offer a comparison.. i.e. it tastes like.... you would not be able to describe what the orange tasted like to another. it's like reading a map and thinking that you know the country.... or reading the menu and thinking the meal will taste as good as it sounds.

as the old saying goes.. the proof is in the pudding.

I read about space junk in a science journal, although it was probably not the right one in someones opinion. There are also people on this forum that would disagree if I said in England today it is Tuesday. I am happy with people having differing views to me, or we would just be patting each other on the back for our utter brilliance but I do prefer it when people disagree respectfully.

of course.. it's a strange phenomena, to me at any rate, at how some folks will behave online.. as if their actions or words are any less real in terms of the consequences. i have the feeling that, in person, most folks would tend to be rather genial and, even in disagreement, hardly ever resort to some of the bullying and intimidation tactics that one can see... even on this particular forum.

You are right and I apologise to Cyberpi.

I am just getting a little tired of being spoken to in a certain manner, by a couple of people on CR. Maybe I need to hang out in the lounge more and keep my opinions to myself, I am getting snippy.

Salaam
MW

i can completely understand.

you should hang out with us Buddhist types more we're really friendly and we have flowers!



metta,

~v

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i'm not really sure that's accurate either... the druids, for instance, are a European cultural tradition which, as far as i know, was pretty concerned with the environment.. well.. not in the modern sense of the term, but you know what i mean.

Hi V

But the Druids did not have industrialisation to deal with. Many ancient peoples respected the land and even worshipped nature but since the industrial revolution we have been damaging our environment on an unprecedented scale.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i often have the impression that folks mean something a bit different than "respect for the enviornment"... what they often seem to be trying to say is more of a responsible usage of said enviornment.

Yes, without doubt, a better expression.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

the dinosaurs walked the earth for 650 million years.. a time so much longer than humans that it's nearly absurd. then, quite suddenly, they were gone. a flash of light and the earth was changed forever.

I agree completely, the human race could be wiped out tomorrow but I do not feel that we should abuse the earth based on this possibility. If we are wiped out the world will recover but how much more difficult for the world to recover if it takes us another million years to disappear (with all the damage we could do between now and then).

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

no, the real source of concern is east Asia where China, notably, has increased it's industrial output at an unprecedentend pace in modern history. often, this industrial process is illegal, such as the many coal mines that kill 13 miners a day in China, which then fuel powerplants that are not up to government codes but, strangely, are overlooked and allowed to keep operating.

Why has China become a concern? Because they are becoming so much more industrialised, as are India. Their outputs are now outstripping other more 'advanced' nations. However, I do not feel we can say 'we are no longer the problem because you are a bigger problem'. As a global community we have to look at the big picture. Add Asia's pollution to ours and the problem becomes a real concern but we too have to deal with our part of that global problem.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i think it was early this year, i'd have to do some checking on when we actually discovered it, but pollution from Chinese coal mines is spreading across Canada and the United States at an alarming level.

I am not saying what they are doing is right but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Haven't Canada and the US been sending pollution across China for some years? Just look at the Chernobyl disaster, that had effects right across Europe, in Scotland trees were dying and lakes were being polluted. We do not have walls around our man made borders, we all affect each other.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

but what have you actually learned about the taste of the orange?

But surely that would be to suggest that unless I have tasted an orange I shouldn't have an opinion on oranges or the methods used for growing them?

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

you should hang out with us Buddhist types more we're really friendly and we have flowers!

Oh and I love flowers. I would have loved to have been a Buddhist but I just can't kick this G-d habit.

Salaam
Sally