Extra-Human Conciousness

[Tao_Equus]

On another thread Bananabrain posted the following:

"....I could point to the fact that this tree would not exist, nor would it probably give fruit, but for your involvement with it. you are part of the story of the tree, you have shaped its reality just as it has shaped yours. perhaps the tree has no emotional reality (i know there are people, even scientists, who would disagree with that) but if the tree has a "soul", it is surely grateful to you. the fact that you cannot detect it does not mean it does not exist. in fact, one might even argue that the tree recognises on some level that you facilitate the propagation of its DNA, so provides you with cherries....."

Who believes that all relationships with living things are two-way relationships in the sense that all living things are 'aware' of such interactions?

[path_of_one]

Me. But I don't think that all beings have the same kind of consciousness I do. However, I do think it entirely possible (and in my experience, probable) that beings such as trees and animals are aware of me and my intentions. Riding horses taught me that. A horse can read your emotions and intentions before your brain even consciously recognizes you've had them. Trees are something different, but in my experience they are aware and communicate in their own way.

But of course, you probably guessed at my response, Tao.

[Dream]

I think there is a connection, but I am not certain how it works. I think some birds respond to our feelings and thoughts. I always have a feeling that everything is connected. Sometimes I feel that trees listen, or that the ocean wants me to come closer or swim out further. When I get a response to a prayer, it makes me think that this world I am part of may not be real. Its a strong feeling, so good thing I'm not on drugs. It is possible, however, that we aren't real except to ourselves. A lot about the world makes sense, but some things don't make sense yet.

The context of the universe keeps changing as exploration proceeds. When I look at how everything about the world is secret until we explore it, then I wonder whether it was already there before we arrived. What we thought was true keeps changing. The depths of the seas, the stars, the quanta, the elements, the animals and people. Every time we learn something new about one of these, it is as though the entire universe has changed, because they change its context. How you and I see reality or the universe can change as early as tomorrow.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Who believes that all relationships with living things are two-way relationships in the sense that all living things are 'aware' of such interactions?

I can be counted in this group that believes in two-way awareness.

When sitting in meditation in a mountain retreat, gazing through the mosquito netting that separated me from the forest outside the zendo, there was a moment where my mind reached beyond its normal boundaries.

Suddenly, my mind was the trees and scene outside as well as sitting on the cushion. I "saw" that there was no inside or outside. Just as I was looking at the trees, the trees were looking at me.

Of course, tree's don't have eyes, ears or brains. So the "awareness" a tree possesses cannot be compared to awareness possessed by humans. That said, everything is one, shares a connection and interaction that we are not normally aware of, but exists none the less.

[wil]

How do we define "living things"?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

But of course, you probably guessed at my response, Tao.

Of course But can I push you a bit... could you try to explain in a bit more detail what is happening and perhaps try and offer some explanation? Oh and that applies to everyone!

Originally Posted by Dream

The context of the universe keeps changing as exploration proceeds. When I look at how everything about the world is secret until we explore it, then I wonder whether it was already there before we arrived. What we thought was true keeps changing. The depths of the seas, the stars, the quanta, the elements, the animals and people. Every time we learn something new about one of these, it is as though the entire universe has changed, because they change its context. How you and I see reality or the universe can change as early as tomorrow.

I think that is the best written few sentences on that subject I have seen.

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Suddenly, my mind was the trees and scene outside as well as sitting on the cushion. I "saw" that there was no inside or outside. Just as I was looking at the trees, the trees were looking at me.

.

Sounds a lot like my 'journey into outer space' experience. I bet you it was just as euphoric.

Originally Posted by wil

How do we define "living things"?

Ok Ok Ok... just for you Wil, you can talk about your pet rock called Leadbelly.

I'm gona hold off on giving my take on it till there is a bit more feedback.

[wil]

I'll wait, but I might it not go beyond the trees...and the lichen, and my yoghurt...

Leadbelly, the wind, the stars, my bow and arrow....could we not all be a collective?

[greymare]

if we are, then I would prefer to not be aware of it.... I would go mad, Prefer to live in ignorance and bliss with this one.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

When sitting in meditation in a mountain retreat, gazing through the mosquito netting that separated me from the forest outside the zendo, there was a moment where my mind reached beyond its normal boundaries.

Well done! Your next assignment is to do it without the mosquito netting!

[nativeastral]

l too have a sense that other living things, apart from humans, have an energy field around them, emanating from them which we can in moments of self transcendence connect with and become aware of; of course we do this all the time with humans but the rational side, and language, and sight [body signals] can obliterate this sensation for want of a better word.

like wil says, define living. rocks are emanating electromagnetic rays and presumably so is everything else 'under the sun' rays, light. l used to get a lot of comfort hugging standing stones near my old house; projection of my subjectivity? probably, but it felt good [they looked liked 3 old crones in sillouette in the distance but were 10 feet high and part of a stone circle; l buried my cat in the middle hence my sentimentality]

[path_of_one]

I'll try to give some details of my own experiences, Tao, though it will make me look like a mad woman. LOL I can try to offer up some explanations, but to be honest, I don't have a ton of them- just vague ideas. I haven't invested as much time into thinking of explanations as I have into figuring out how to open up to doing it and using the information I gain.

First, I'd recommend a book of stories about this sort of thing: Kinship with All Life. Amazon.com: Kinship with All Life : Simple, Challenging, Real-Life Experiences Showing How Animals Communicate with Each Other and with the People Who Understand Them: J. Allen Boone: Books

On horses...

I've been working intensively with horses for about 11 years now. I had long communicated through riding and groundwork, learning to use body language as one of them rather than as a predator, so that I could more easily train them. But about six years ago, perhaps (I forget), I first had an actual exchange with a particular horse. I was cleaning the stall of a new mare that came in. I began receiving images and feelings from her. I have had this happen before with humans, but it's not quite the same. Horses largely communicate through (from what I've seen) is near instantaneous sharing of visceral feelings- what you might call "gut" reactions. You feel things from them first in your body, not your brain. You might feel their anxiety, fear, quiet, enjoyment and it radiates from your muscles and thorax to your brain- you feel it before you recognize the feeling you have been given. It makes a lot of sense if you consider that they are prey animals- the communication is first through feeling to the entire herd (and you) and this allows rapid and compelling communication of danger or pleasure. However, horses do more than that. They send images. The images are not like a human would send, associated clearly with a single thought that could translate into words. The images evoke feelings and a sort of gestalt of what is going on in the horse's head, not a particular train of thought. So far as I can tell, horses just don't think like us- they don't think linearly. It's all in free-association and big picture. Because of this, my own opinion is those animal communicators that get paid the big bucks (I've seen people shell out $100 per reading at show barns) and are telling people "Oh, your horse likes purple" (horses can't see purple) or "Your horse thought XYZ the other day" are talking total BS. This is not how horses think, what they care about, or what is useful communication to them. How horse to horse and horse to human communcation works in this way, I have no idea. I could say vaguely that everything seems connected energetically to allow this, or something about bioenergetic fields, but to be honest I have no earthly idea how I pick up on that stuff. And I am not entirely consistent- my mind has to be pretty clear to pick up on images. Feelings are easier. Incidentally, it's the same way with people- I only pick up on thoughts when people are "yelling" in their head or when my mind is exceptionally clear of my own noise. But I pick up on feelings and general senses of intent all the time.

In terms of the flip side, horses are incredibly sensitive to intention and thought (of course to varying degrees by individual). Many breeds that were created to live very closely with humans, such as Arabians, are so intensely sensitive to their human companions that they are mistakenly thought to be "crazy" or "unpredictable." In fact, they are very predictable. They mirror their human companion's emotions and intent so well and so quickly that the human has often not consciously recognized his/her own thoughts until they are present in the horse, which is nearly instantaneous. If you feel tense, the horse tenses- typically in the same spot of the body. If you imagine the horse doing a poor transition, he does. If you imagine a perfect transition, he does. If you even consider "halt," the horse has already stopped. If you are angry, even if you act OK and other humans would think you're being normal, the horse will react in fear of your anger. You can't fool them- they are like living lie detectors in terms of your focus and emotional state. How this works is to me pretty obvious- your intentions and emotions, when at a sub-conscious level, are already influencing your heartrate, pupil dilation, breathing, posture, muscle tone, etc.- and horses are extremely sensitive to this. Anger comes through your body as threat, fear comes through as danger, pleasure or relaxation comes through as confidence. And when you think sub-consciously to stop or trot or whatever, your body is already moving to prepare for this motion even when you haven't consciously told it to yet. I don't know if they receive images from us the way we can from them.

I later read a book, The Tao of Equus, in which the woman experienced something similar. So that was interesting- could be she and I just have similar personality types (and madnesses LOL), but on the flip side, it could be that those who are sensitive in this way pick up on the same communication styles from other beings.

Amazon.com: The Tao of Equus: A Woman's Journey of Healing and Transformation through the Way of the Horse: Linda Kohanov: Books

So far as I can tell, dogs and cats are similar, but they are more linear in thinking. They can form a plan. They're more like us, which makes sense to me, given that they (like us) are ominvorous and/or predatory, which takes a lot more planning than prey animals and yet necessitates less immediate communication of danger. But though I am very close to my dogs and my kitty I had for 20 years (now passed away), I must confess that I haven't put as much work into trying to communicate that way with them. It sort of evolved on its own with the horses because I was working many different horses and spending hours and hours each week doing it.

On insects...

I dislike killing things. And I dislike insects. So after reading "Kinship with All Life," I had the new idea to communicate my needs to insects- mostly about them peaceably leaving my personal bubble. For the most part, it works. Spiders, beetles, crickets- all are pretty good listeners. I either ask them to leave on their own, or if I need them to be gone immediately, I get a cup and ask them to get in the cup. I reassure them about what I'm doing, and take them outdoors and release. My husband doubted my insect-communication skills until one day I was asking a cricket to get in the cup and the cricket jumped from the floor into my cup- I was standing so he jumped about four feet directly into the cup, then stayed there until I got him outside, after which he jumped out of the cup. Could be a coincidence... or maybe I am a cricket-whisperer. LOL By the way, if anyone has tips on communicating with roaches- let me know. They have never, ever listened. LOL

On trees...

Trees do not give me images or thoughts, but rather feelings. Complex feelings, like the sort you might have after a vivid dream as you wake up and forget what you were dreaming about or the kind you get when you can't quite remember an event but you call up the mix of thoughts and emotions you had at the time. Trees also give me a sort of wisdom- they are teachers. I wouldn't say they transmit ideas as much as inspire them. They have an energy to them- the Redwoods have a low sort of hum that is so overwhelming that it brings me to tears. And the Bristlecone Pines feel like they are very quiet, patient trees. Individual trees feel different, but so do entire species or, I should say, genera. Some trees have more going on in there- almost like being a person and coming closer to images or thoughts- they tend to be older trees. I don't know why, but plants gain more ability to communicate as they get older, or so it seems. The oldest are like mentors and comforters, though they can feel bristly at first until one gets to know them and they understand you are respectful and won't cause harm. Then they tend to be quite parental.

Trees are like crystals in a way, as they have a certain "hum" to them, a certain energy. Crystals don't impart feelings though- more like energy (in the literal sense- like feeling different kind of electrical zaps at different intensities and frequencies). However, different rocks will have an effect on me- but it is more mechanical than personable.

I have heard from some that bodies of water have a sort of consciousness, but I haven't been able to experience that yet. I suspect it is partly because I am a woods-person more than a water-person, so I am rarely spending time with rivers or lakes. The sea certainly seems to me like it has a great big consciousness- it generally makes me giddy with happiness as it feels like I can breathe with it and feel the vastness of what it would be like to be such a being. Places seem to have memories, but not necessarily personalities. The feelings and images I get from places are tied to past. I'd guess this is a sort of energetic signature of some sort- don't know how to describe that. Places also have different energies- kind of like rocks- but this may be tied to the earth's energetic field or (a pet idea of mine, though entirely unfounded) points at which the earth's (and our universe's) plane touches another- this goes along with a sort of multiverse concept in which the various universes might be intersecting but largely unaware of each other.

So there's my long ramblings on the subject. None of it is scientific and most of the explanatory ideas (outside of body language with horses) are just ponderings I've had without much time given to them.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

By the way, if anyone has tips on communicating with roaches- let me know. They have never, ever listened.

Shortly after dropping out of art school to pursue Zen Buddhism, I was living in Tucson, Arizona, in a small apartment and encountering roaches for the very first time.

I tried to practice non-violence, thinking that I could coexist with these little creatures. However, one night, I was awakened in bed by the skittering of one running across my chest. That was enough for me to change my philosophy to, "DEATH TO ALL COCKROACHES!!!"

A combination of boric acid and powdered sugar ended their brief reign.

[path_of_one]

Yeah, the buggers are not good listeners. I can't imagine more difficult tests of non-violence than roaches... oh, and mosquitos. But at least the mosquitos have an excuse that you are their foodstuff.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by nativeastral

l too have a sense that other living things, apart from humans, have an energy field around them, emanating from them which we can in moments of self transcendence connect with and become aware of; of course we do this all the time with humans but the rational side, and language, and sight [body signals] can obliterate this sensation for want of a better word.

Me too....and I used to harbour the idea that there was a real communication going on. These days I tend to think of it more like a combination of reading a book and repeated experience than anything transcendental...so to speak. Though, as I will go on to explain in my next reply to PoO, I am pretty certain that you can form communicative relationships with animals that appear almost magical, as Poo indeed maintains. I think we are all, for once, singing from the same score on this one. It is just a matter of interpratation of cause that needs discussion.

like wil says, define living. rocks are emanating electromagnetic rays and presumably so is everything else 'under the sun' rays, light. l used to get a lot of comfort hugging standing stones near my old house; projection of my subjectivity? probably, but it felt good [they looked liked 3 old crones in sillouette in the distance but were 10 feet high and part of a stone circle; l buried my cat in the middle hence my sentimentality]

I am only a layman but when it comes to the sciences I am a polyglot and geology is one of the languages I love. I have a small collection of stones that I can call friends and that have characters as individual and diverse as any 'living' things. Having worked minutely in stone I certainly know they have character. I used to make micro-mosaic art objects using stones I often collected, and cut and polished in my own tumbler. Lapidry was my first real hobby. I was not intending to diminish Wil's question, just have a wee joke at his expense

[I, Brian]

path, that's exactly the sort of experience I call empathy - hang on, let's start giving it a capital E - Empathy.

Normally, "empathy" simply means to relate, but as an Empath, to me it means you're susceptible to the emotional states, feelings, and thoughts of other living forms.

(I'm not quoting anything here, simply referencing my own Empathic experiences).

It's absolutely amazing how normally it comes up in general life - but mostly mundane circumstances, which is one of my big frustrations with being an Empath - how do you use it for a greater good? At present it presents evolutionary advantage in terms of a greater awareness of situational experiences, but what else can we really turn it to?

Anyway, I just wanted to say I regard your experiences completely normal, and I've had them with all sorts of animals. The really surprising thing, I think, is when people consider it unusual.

I think anyone with a close pet has almost certainly experienced it in some way, for example, knowing somehow there's something wrong with an animal, without any obvious cues, but without the language to describe the experience, it becomes lost in translation.

As before, I don't believe it's some form of supernatural ability either - I think it's a normal and perhaps very primitive form of sensory perception that is underdeveloped but present in a basic form in humans - but as nativeastral alluded to in another post, is easily drowned out by the conscious experience.

After all, there are so many sensory experiences we consciously block out unless they present information important to the immediate experience - for example, how manby of us reading this post at this instance are aware of the smell of their surroundings? The sense of whatever their fingers are touching? Chances are, you were already filtering these signals out because all you needed to focus on was the visual, and perhaps your sense of hearing cocked in case of a sudden noise of danger.

Something I'm trying to do recently is try and get an idea of whether there may be a specific set of tissue involved in this whole Empathic process. "Gut feeling" is a very simple but apt way to describe it, but I'm currently wondering if there may be any tissue in front of the lower spine that may offer clues - namely because I often get a sense of "feeling behind myself" (like I'm somehow falling back inside myself) if that makes sense, when I'm most aware. (or is it simply a change in brain pattern?).

Then again, perhaps there's a larger explanation directly involving bio-electromagnetic fields. The scientist in me want's to rationalise the process, in order to better understand and communicate this.

Empathic experiences are so normal and everyday, but I'm really frustrated on how to use it in a more positive way. I can see how it can be used for improved personal survival, or for caring for individual creatures - a general improved situational awareness. But I keep thinking there must be more to it - perhaps some way to use it as a group experience in some way.

Hm...