Facist Israel Strikes Again

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

it is the truest/ the oppressed who always win and have the last saying.

I totally agree with you on the truest, but the oppressed do not always win. Our history is a history of oppression noone can deny that. We can work to change that though.

And exploding things isn`t always the solution. Do you think a weapons race is the solution? Do you think more nuclear bombs are the solution? More blood? I think not, you know how I feel about nuclear bombs if I told you that I come from Japan, and most countries that possess or want nuclear bombs have no idea what its about.

I would wish that Palestinians elect or develop a political body that could deter savage acts of violence, it takes time if the infrastructure is not there, in that sense I meant Hamas is weak maybe in the brain. I know they are weak because there are many people who would think like Hamas where I live, and they are weak (in the brain).

Randomly shooting rockets accomplished nothing except a lot of Palestinian blood, and that is a reality in abilities Hamas should face and work to resolve, by sometimes working around things for the sake of Palestinian people. Instead of shooting pea guns at the giant only to be stomped.

A weapons war with the US is a war that cannot be won, that is a reality that every country should understand. Believe it or not there are other righteous ways although I`m not the one who should be doing the explaining.

For example, rather than continue to randomly shoot hand-made missiles, and get all mobbed up in a frenzy of anger to think about what acts of violence should be done next, wouldn`t it be wiser to stop all the random acts of violence on the Palestinian side for now, and bring accusations to the International courts? That cannot be done while the hand-made missiles are being shot.

I am not a South African, but look at them.
Look at what Gandhi did.

Believe it or not there are many people who think like Hamas everywhere in the world, including Israel. You might want to think about whether electing those kinds of people into power is a wise choice in the long run. There are people on the other side who also play by the same rules which I don`t quite think Hamas sees it that way.
I recomend early retirement for the Hamas guy who is planning the handmade rocket strategy. I`d recomend the same for some Israeli`s.

If I was Palestinian I might be strapped up to a bomb, or I might be killing those who are firing the handmade rockets knowing that it would save Palestinian lives.

Dude, don`t literally take what I wrote personally on this. I think I was writing towards Hamas and Muslim extremists. I`m a bit angry right now, and anger clouds the mind, makes people blind. Don`t fall for that kind of magic??!

[Janz]

Originally Posted by Dream

Bush seems sort of non religious, albeit very connected to the religious. Christian Zionists may appear to influence Repub candidacy but actually have very little to do with foreign policy.

I disagree with this statement. In May 2008, President Bush gave his standard speech at the Israeli Knesset on the occasion of Israel's 60th anniversary. It was full of the usual simplistic platitudes painting the world in colors black and white.

But there was something unique about the Speech this time; something that confirms what some have long suspected, but could never affirm with any kind of certainty. President Bush is a Christian Zionist.

This is evident in what Bush said about the establishment of the Israeli state which he apparently considers to have been a divinely ordained event for a chosen people.

Sixty years ago in Tel Aviv, David Ben-Gurion proclaimed Israel's independence, founded on the "natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate." What followed was more than the establishment of a new country. It was the redemption of an ancient promise given to Abraham and Moses and David -- a homeland for the chosen people Eretz Yisrael.

This chosen status, according to Bush, is what binds America’s destiny to Israel’s. This is not a mundane political partnership. This is a match made in heaven.

The alliance between our governments is unbreakable, yet the source of our friendship runs deeper than any treaty. It is grounded in the shared spirit of our people, the bonds of the Book, the ties of the soul. When William Bradford stepped off the Mayflower in 1620, he quoted the words of Jeremiah: "Come let us declare in Zion the word of God." The founders of my country saw a new promised land and bestowed upon their towns names like Bethlehem and New Canaan.

What this means is that Israel (and by inference, her divinely chosen soul mate, America) stands as a beacon of divine purpose in the world; from her God’s light shines most brightly.

You have raised a modern society in the Promised Land, a light unto the nations that preserves the legacy of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. And you have built a mighty democracy that will endure forever and can always count on the United States of America to be at your side. God bless.

Here is a link to the full speech: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0080515-1.html

There is something deeply troubling about the president of our nation making statements like this, particularly in a situation so fraught with moral ambiguity as is the founding of the State of Israel. What Israel celebrates as independence, the Palestinians mourn as al-nakhba (the catastrophe). What Bush lauds as evidence of Israel’s divine favor, Palestinians experience as oppression. The truth is surely somewhere in-between. But that it is in-between is beyond doubt.

Those who have held out some faint hope that this president could be a source of healing and hope in the Middle East are bound to be disappointed. There is no hope here, as the kind of extreme Christian Zionist ideology reflected in Bush's speech only adds fuel to the fire.

This has everything to do with our foreign policy decisions to fund with American Tax Dollars the State of Israel's weapons of mass destruction.

Israel has received more U.S. military assistance than any other country, both in terms of grant aid and military sales on a concessional basis. Since 1987, the U.S. has provided an average of $1.8 billion annually in the form of Foreign Military Sales (FMS), Foreign Military Financing (FMF) and funds to support research and development.

The United States is the largest single supplier of military equipment to Israel. According to the U.S. Congressional Research Service, between 1998-2005 the U.S. accounted for the vast majority of Israel's arms transfer agreements, accounting for $9.1 billion out of $9.5 billion worth of agreements.

Israel has the world's largest F-16 fleet outside the United States Air Force. With the delivery of 102 F-16Is, scheduled through 2008, the Israeli Air Force will have a total F-16 inventory of 362, in addition to 106 F-15s. [21]

Israel?United States military relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I believe that Christian Zionism has EVERYTHING to do with prolonging the misery of the Palestinians by encouraging Israel's drive to take back all of the Holy Lands and rid it of all Palestinians so that Jesus will come again. This is a dangerous and irrational belief that God is on their sides and against the Muslims. Plus, there will never be peace (according to this theological belief) because the Divine Plan declares that the Jews and Arabs will always be at war and only the 2nd coming of the Christian Messiah will stop the killing.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Jamarz

In May 2008, President Bush gave his standard speech at the Israeli Knesset on the occasion of Israel's 60th anniversary. It was full of the usual simplistic platitudes painting the world in colors black and white.

But there was something unique about the Speech this time; something that confirms what some have long suspected, but could never affirm with any kind of certainty. President Bush is a Christian Zionist.

Ok, I think I understand why you'd suspect this now; but the things our president said before the Knesset were not definitively Zionist, although they were sort of kiss-butt. America befriends Israel for many more reasons than Zionism. First of all, we think we can count on Israel as an ally as long as we are ourselves a good ally to them. We think that because the Jews here have bought a reputation for Judaism. (I understand that Israel is actually not Judaism, but it still has lots of Jews in charge of it.) Its hard for us over here to imagine an oppressive Israel over there. I don't have to be Zionist to recognize that whenever Jews live in a country they have a 'holy sacrament' to work for the benefit of the place where they live. In the US they have always agitated for more freedom, abolition, etc. and have also fought along side us in our wars. Who financed the Revolutionary Continental Army? That's right. Who fought for civil rights for Blacks here? Yep. Women voters? Jews did. Are you catching my drift? Their lobby is actually not that strong, but they have been contributing to society here for a long time. You might say America is the original Zion, and we believe Israel is a reliable ally. Not so with our Muslim friends. What do they agitate for here? Sharia Law! We don't like that, and we don't like being stabbed in the back by Arabs who keep messing with our oil prices and calling us Satan. They also were (by-the-way) Axis in WWII, trained by Nazis, and never quite forgave us about losing. No, they are not considered reliable allies.

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Dream

First of all, we think we can count on Israel as an ally as long as we are ourselves a good ally to them.

Every Israeli I`ve met so far doesn`t seem to like Bush, but I haven`t met many, and didn`t ask all of them. I might though.

Originally Posted by Dream

Its hard for us over here to imagine an oppressive Israel over there.

Who is "we" and "us" again and again? You mean us Americans, because there are probably plenty of Americans who would disagree with you. You know that.

And its easy for me to imagine an oppressive Israel, when you think Communist Russia was very much enabled by the Jews there. There are many Russian Jews in Israel as well. I haven`t confirmed if Israel has a tendency to act like Russia though.

Originally Posted by Dream

We don't like that, and we don't like being stabbed in the back by Arabs who keep messing with our oil prices and calling us Satan.

Dude, its Chinese, Russians, Venezuela, American politicians and the Arabs who are messing with oil prices, and stabbing us in the back. Keyword being there are Americans who made a lot of money by doing that. Its true that we pay Arabs for oil but again our politicians are to blame for that too.

Also I wouldn`t blame anyone if they thought the Bush administration was satan, I don`t understand why you would. You`re not gonna tell me that he was a great president now are you? Even a long time Republican would disagree with you if that is how you feel about Bush.

Originally Posted by Dream

They also were (by-the-way) Axis in WWII, trained by Nazis, and never quite forgave us about losing. No, they are not considered reliable allies. [/left]

I`m sure that Bush is very good friends with the Arabs. They`re the richest people in the world and Bush makes good money from them. You couldn`t be so far off from the truth besides the contribution of the Jews in the US probably.

I don`t think Bush is a Christian Zionist, I don`t think it really matters, but I think he is very much a close associate of them. I suspect he is some sort of neo-Nazi gangster though. And I totally lost faith in him as a president although I was convinced he was a complete idiot the first time I saw him, when I heard that he goes to a psychic for readings.

Dream, are you a Christian Zionist? Because you sound close to one.

TK

[Tao_Equus]

I do not believe for one moment that Bush is a CZ. And I do not believe for one moment that public speeches bare any resemblance to the private meetings that really decide policy and action.

TK is closest to the mark in my opinion. This is a financial/power agreement and religion has no influence on the decision makers. Religion is for the idiot masses who swallow that bait hook, line and sinker. Bush never writes his own speeches. As far as I can tell he rarely even reads them through before his embarrassingly amateur deliveries. As for not trusting the Arabs, well there is no shortage of military support for the hegemonies of Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait and the others that are sympathetic to the commercial aims of the corporations the Bush family and friends head. This is an old game. The dynasties that still call the shots have been around for a century and longer and have become grand masters of propaganda and rhetoric. Every time you get sidetracked into thinking this is about religion they have you by the balls. Religion, as Marx said, is the opium of the masses. Every time you smoke that crap you buy into a manufactured hallucination. That simple.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by TheKahn

Dude, its Chinese, Russians, Venezuela, American politicians and the Arabs who are messing with oil prices, and stabbing us in the back.

OPEC squeezed the oil first, on purpose and really got us good. Furthermore, you skimmed over the fact that America has been called 'The Great Satan' in Muslim countries for many years. If America thought Hamas was a good ally for us we'd be sending them planes and tanks just like Israel -- but they hate us and have since before I was born. Like Tao_Equus says its got nothin' to do with Zionism. Although I don't understand why he thinks Israel is a fascist state, even a fascist Israel wouldn't think all Americans were hellspawn. Oil or no oil, Israel isn't looking for opportunities to destroy us, so they're a good ally. More importantly, they need strong allies. We are in competition with Russia, China, and EU & others to be Israel's preferred ally. What is the advantage in competing to be allies of Hamas or Fatah, since no matter what we're still the Great Satan?

Originally Posted by TheKahn

Dream, are you a Christian Zionist? Because you sound close to one.

I just don't think Bush is a Zionist (like it matters). Close to one? I have now been a part of two types of Christian groups, but I'm very skeptical now. I never did divide the world into Zionists and non-Zionists, nor have I ever been anybody's political fan. Perhaps you think I am painting a rosy picture of Jews and Israel, but the picture I painted wasn't rosy at all. The fact is, you are approaching the conversation like you are are objective but don't even know the history of it. I know a little something, so you assume automatically I'm a Zionist. Should we ally with people who hate us or people who don't hate us?

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Dream

The fact is, you are approaching the conversation like you are are objective but don't even know the history of it. I know a little something, so you assume automatically I'm a Zionist. Should we ally with people who hate us or people who don't hate us?

I was just messing with you when I asked if you were a Zionist. I would have got a good kick out of it if you answered "yes..".

One thing that I don`t see, that you mention numerous times is, why in the world do we really need Israel as a cozy ally? I can understand why Israel would want to be allies with America, and there`s no reason why they shouldn`t be friends, but I don`t see why it would benefit the American public besides making Jerusalem a nice Christian tourist spot, with a heavy hand might I add. And annoy the hell out of natives in the area.

Besides military industry people making cash maybe on the side.. there`s nothing to gain for the public, in return for the $billions. And I don`t really care if we have allies in areas where they hate American citizens, because they don`t pose a military threat to me or you, unless I travel with my passport in hostile areas.

I guess the only scenario that I can think of is where a ME nuclear missile is developed with full intent to be delivered to the US or Europe, but then in that case I think it would be a European affair. Isn`t Israel a bit far off?

Actually I have another theory, where the United States has decided to control the migration of Muslims into the US. When you compare Europe and America its obvious, and that South Americans were chosen to be the dominant immigrants over the Muslims in Europe. Europeans are very worried that Muslims are going to be a political force in their country too fast. That kind of reason would prompt America to do what it is currently doing.

But if that is the case, that is just stupid man trying to control something like a tsunami. You can`t control natural migration paths, mother nature, with weak racist reasons. Its a loser strategy..

May I add that if Hitler were alive, he`d have a ME policy that is very hostile towards the middle east. You know ME people aren`t gonna be friendly when their lands are taken over. In that sense I think it is ironic how Israel was started. Wasn`t Hitlers utlimate destination the middle east? I`d have to say that he might have started around Jerusalem too. I heard that the Nazi`s started when the middle easterners started showing up in Germany for work.

Please enlighten me on the truth.

TK

[TheKhan]

Dream,

Since I just heard Bloomberg say Americans know what terrorism is.
Americans may think so, but Americans do not. The Israeli`s know, the British know, the Japanese know, in fact most countries have a history.

But America, the only modern attack that Americans know to date whether terrorism or a full act of war are two big buildings, and a military base far away in the Pacific. Americans know war, but Americans do not know what its like to be attacked. Whether we have to go down this path is a good question. I frankly would prefer that I can walk down any street in America and not worry about a restaurant or club blowing up with around 200 injured every two weeks. You`ve never been there right?

And the final answer is a whole city disintegrating with 100,000 casualties instant (its only logical to reach this conclusion). Do we need to go there?

TK

p.s. whatever worked until now won`t probably work on people with 8000 years of history. They`re the originals, they invented what America is.

[TheKhan]

The easier path would be to make some arrests in Palestine, Israel and the United States in the long run.

[Janz]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I do not believe for one moment that Bush is a CZ. And I do not believe for one moment that public speeches bare any resemblance to the private meetings that really decide policy and action.

Every time you get sidetracked into thinking this is about religion they have you by the balls. Religion, as Marx said, is the opium of the masses. Every time you smoke that crap you buy into a manufactured hallucination. That simple.

TE I don't know you very well and you are entitled to your opinions; but frankly, I am not a fan of your line of thinking (like you care.). You seem to think you are a god-like expert on every subject here on these forums. Yes, Religion can be an opium of the masses and I don't have balls, thank God for that. Any mature human being knows there is a difference between religion and faith; but I am sure that you must understand that most people of faith are not stupid, blind and drugged into a false reality as you imply.

Of course, Bush does not write his own speeches(he has had a whole team of Conservative Evangelicals doing that for years) and yes, he is a hypocrite of the worse kind by placating both Israel and Saudi Arabia. Yes, economics and power are the religion of the men who believe that they are acting for the "good" of humanity.

All that being said, religion does have a strong hold on the masses who follow these powerful leaders and many a human being will die for their belief in God and Country even if there are those of us who think it is wrong to do so.

You really don't understand how powerful religion is in America nor have you lived here for 56 years and traveled the roads that I have traveled and seen and heard the lies that I have heard. Behind all these decisions, religion (not faith) is the means to justify the ends. You do need to read more on the subject of Christian Zionism as Representation of American Manifest Destiny. There are many excellent and well written articles about this subject so just use a large search engine and do your research. Until then, here are a few paragraphs for those who want to broaden their thinking: from a book by Lila Rajiva: The Language of Empire: Abu Ghraib and the American Media" published by Monthly Review Press.

This is from a chapter called Christian Zionism:
Lila Rajiva: Christian Zionism

In an October 23, 2003 AP report, General Boykin, assistant to Cambone, described the battle against Islamic terrorists as a clash between Christianity and "a guy named Satan" and suggested that Christians needed to support the divine plan that had put Bush in office, "Why is this man in the White House?" he asked rhetorically. "The majority of Americans did not vote for him. He's in the White House because God put him there."

Earlier, in January 2003, Boykin also told a congregation how the Somali warlord Osman Atto had boasted on CNN that "Allah" would protect him and Boykin had capped the story with the remark, "Well, you know what? I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."

In June 2002, he showed a congregation pictures of Mogadishu, the capital of Somalia, that had been taken from an Army helicopter in 1993 just after the battle with Somali war lords which killed 18 American soldiers, a debacle depicted in the film, "Black Hawk Down." He said he had enlarged the photos when he had got back home to the US. and noticed what looked like a dark blemish over the city. "This is your enemy," he declared to the congregation, "It is the principalities of darkness .... It is a demonic presence in that city that God revealed to me as the enemy." It was Boykin who briefed Stephen Cambone his boss on Miller's visit to Abu Ghraib. It was Boykin who encourages the directive to change policy there along the lines that had proved so effective at Guantanamo.

Boykin represents the enormous power of evangelicals in the Bush administration. Except for a notorious call for a crusade immediately after Sept 11, Bush has been careful in speeches to differentiate between the war on Iraq and one on Islam. Muslim ambassadors have for the first time participated in a formal Ramadan dinner at the White House and a Muslim chaplain has officiated at the opening prayers of Congress, but others close to him have been more intemperate. Franklin Graham, whose father Billy converted Bush, has called Islam evil and Graham's decision to join other Christian evangelists in Iraq both to aid and convert Iraqis must bolster the Muslim perception of the invasion as an alliance of "Jews and Crusaders."

Bush claims to be unable to restrain him because of concern for civil liberties, but his reluctance may have more to do with the contribution that evangelicals like Graham, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson have made to his election. And in private too, Bush has revealed his own conviction that his presidency is a mission given to him by God.


Religious language seems to drench the administration. "Rods from God" is the name for the bundles of tungsten rods fired from orbiting platforms that hurtle down to earth at 3,700 meters per second and destroy even underground targets anywhere on the planet at a few minutes' notice. David Frum, until last year a speech writer for Bush, claims in a recent book that he heard a staff member say to Bush's chief speech writer, Michael Gerson, "Missed you at Bible study."


Christian fundamentalists who have the President,s ear include the Apostolic Congress, affiliated with the United Pentecostal Church, which in addition to its missionary work in Israel (illegal under Israeli law),is active in the increasingly Christian work of pro-Israel activities in the United States. In an interview with the Village Voice, its leader, Pastor Upton, claimed that he had coordinated the directing of 50,000 postcards to the White House to oppose the Middle East "Road Map, " the plan which aims to create a Palestinian state. NSC Near East and North African Affairs director, Elliott Abrams, sits down regularly with the Apostolic Congress to assuage their fear that Israel might give up any of its Biblical claims to land.


Bush also has strong connections to apocalyptic millennialists like Tim LaHaye, one of the authors of the Left Behind novels, who believes that a world-wide conflagration centered in the Middle East will be the prelude to the return of Christ. Before his thousand year rule over the world, however, millennialists believe that select believers will be taken up directly to heaven in a Rapture.

Other fundamentalists like the dominionists are more concerned with the present day than the apocalypse and seek to remake the United States as country under Biblical law, focusing on the expansion of Christianity as a power. What all these groups have in common, however, is support for the Iraq war, a belief that Islam is false, and faith in Zionism.



Christian Zionists advocate the unconditional support for Israel, the return of all Jews to Israel, the legitimacy of the West Bank settlements, a greater (Eretz) Israel that spreads from and includes Jerusalem with the Temple of Solomon rebuilt on the present site of the sacred Al-Aqsa mosque. The power of this pro-Israeli lobby ensures that Israel receives 3-8 billion dollars annually from the US in aid and military assistance and that House members on both sides are neutered on the subject of Israel.

In March 2004, Senator Inhofe stated in a speech on the Senate floor that he supports Israel because God said so. It was the same Inhofe who claimed that he was more outraged by the outrage over Abu Ghraib than over the treatment of the prisoners. "They're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands. And here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals." Should we draw a connection between Inhofe's Zionist beliefs and his view of Iraqi prisoners?


Christian Zionists constitute a vocal 3 million of America's 98 million evangelicals and with the 30 million other Christians who have Zionist beliefs of some kind have long been the mainstay of U.S. support for Israel, operating through such political groups as the powerful Council for National Policy, which was founded by LaHaye, a former head of the Moral Majority, and has included John Ashcroft, Ed Meese, Ralph Reed, the editor of The National Review, Robertson, Falwell, Grover Norquist, and Oliver North among its members. Ashcroft has been reported as saying: "Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him. Christianity is a faith where God sent his son to die for you." Jerry Falwell has told the CBS news program "60 Minutes" that Muhammad is a "terrorist." The only non-Jew ever to receive the Jabotinsky medal for services to Israel, from the militant Zionist's ardent disciple, Menachem Begin, Falwell was even permitted by President Reagan to attend NSC briefings while best-selling Armageddon author, Hal Lindsey, was allowed to speak on nuclear war with Russia to top Pentagon strategists. (Born again zionist - mother jones sept 2002)



Lindsey,s 1970,s best-seller, the Late Great Planet Earth is responsible for bringing to world wide fame the dispensationalist view that since the return of the Jews to Israel, history has been unfolding according to Revelations. In recent years, these and other evangelicals have targeted as their priority a swath of the world dubbed "the 10/40 window" (North Africa, the Middle East, and Asia between 10 degrees and 40 degrees north latitude) for conversion.

This may seem all silly to some of you UKers; but after I discovered that my faith beliefs were being wedded to such nonsense, I left American Christianity and have been adrift and happier ever sense. I have personally been exposed to these teachings and I live in a city in Colorado where conservative evangelicals tried to play their heavy hand but of lately, I think many more of us are awakening to their deceptions and it appears they no longer have the influence they once had. Who knows what will happen with Obama as President..I have some hope; but then....

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Jamarz

TE I don't know you very well and you are entitled to your opinions; but frankly, I am not a fan of your line of thinking (like you care.). You seem to think you are a god-like expert on every subject here on these forums. Yes, Religion can be an opium of the masses and I don't have balls, thank God for that. Any mature human being knows there is a difference between religion and faith; but I am sure that you must understand that most people of faith are not stupid, blind and drugged into a false reality as you imply.

Of course, Bush does not write his own speeches(he has had a whole team of Conservative Evangelicals doing that for years) and yes, he is a hypocrite of the worse kind by placating both Israel and Saudi Arabia. Yes, economics and power are the religion of the men who believe that they are acting for the "good" of humanity.

All that being said, religion does have a strong hold on the masses who follow these powerful leaders and many a human being will die for their belief in God and Country even if there are those of us who think it is wrong to do so.

You really don't understand how powerful religion is in America nor have you lived here for 56 years and traveled the roads that I have traveled and seen and heard the lies that I have heard. Behind all these decisions, religion (not faith) is the means to justify the ends. You do need to read more on the subject of Christian Zionism as Representation of American Manifest Destiny. There are many excellent and well written articles about this subject so just use a large search engine and do your research. Until then, here are a few paragraphs for those who want to broaden their thinking: from a book by Lila Rajiva: The Language of Empire: Abu Ghraib and the American Media" published by Monthly Review Press.



This may seem all silly to some of you UKers; but after I discovered that my faith beliefs were being wedded to such nonsense, I left American Christianity and have been adrift and happier ever sense. I have personally been exposed to these teachings and I live in a city in Colorado where conservative evangelicals tried to play their heavy hand but of lately, I think many more of us are awakening to their deceptions and it appears they no longer have the influence they once had. Who knows what will happen with Obama as President..I have some hope; but then....

Thank you for your kind words

I do not consider myself an expert on anything except mixing the cocktail known as a "hemingway". That aside I grant you I am an opinionated and regular contributor on many topics here. But, and please correct me if I have this wrong, this is a forum for opinion and not a narrow clique of experts engaged in navel gazing.

I used to share your opinion that the Christian Right are important, that they have power and influence. If you were to go back to my posts before about a year ago you would find me regularly citing the insanity of letting people affiliated to groups like the "Moral Majority" have any influence in the corridors of the White House. But these days I do not think they do. They are merely invited in to make it appear as though they have the presidents ear. But in truth Bush makes no decisions and certainly does not listen to them. His daddy remains far more powerful than him and he works with and for a bunch of international corporation heads who have only had one aim, to expand and to assure the continuing expansion of their interests. These people make trillions from war and having different religious factions in uncompromising opposition to each other is a primary business tactic for them. The religions themselves do not matter one hoot. The Bush family are long time business associates of people like the Saudi Royal Family that invests heavily in creating a hard-line Wahhabi network of educational establishments to breed the next generation of conflict. This is not in opposition, as you might think, to promoting irrational Christian Fundamentalism in America. You need two sides to have a war. Each colludes with the other for a predetermined purpose. They feed the opium to their respective sides. You are right that this is not an "expert" opinion....but it is mine.

[Dream]

Wow, Jamarz. You are hot, tonight! My own parents were into LaHay books, such as The Late Great Planet Earth. I keep a copy of it as a sort of memento or reality check. I did not know that General Boykin was talking smack about Satan, or all the other stuff in that quotation you've put up. Thanks for that, and of course it makes sense. Military men don't make it very far without believing that they're doing something important -- making a difference. Generals who don't believe tend to usurp the government. (Napoleon, for example)

I have thoroughly experienced two completely separate Christian Zionist movements, one being LaHay and Hagee style, the other much older and which came out of the Bible Student movement or related movements of the 19th century. The people from this earlier movement among English speaking people were in a position to influence the Balfour declaration of 1917. Zionist Christians appear basically whenever someone splits off and starts trying to understand Revelation. The Christian Dispensationalists view Revelation very differently from those of other Zionist movements, for instance. That is how you know that the groups are completely unrelated. They don't talk to each other. Manifest Destiny could be a third Zionist movement, although it is less focused upon Revelation; and it was more of a sweeping romanticization of war that went beyond Christianity proper.

Manifest Destiny is not really Zionism, although I can't completely differentiate it. It is more like a pain killer we used to placate our conciences over displacing the natives who lived here. It may have been used to forgive ourselves for other sins as well. No, it was not justifiable; but at least we included it in our history books instead of forgetting it. As with generals, the country that fights has to believe what they do is right, especially if it isn't. A lot of governments manipulate public faith for that very reason.

Originally Posted by TheKahn

And the final answer is a whole city disintegrating with 100,000 casualties instant (its only logical to reach this conclusion). Do we need to go there?

The war with Japan and its conclusion would have been the greatest tragedy of all of recorded history had not the Japanese recaptured all their mystery, industry, and their ingenuity plus more within one generation.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Dream

The war with Japan and its conclusion would have been the greatest tragedy of all of recorded history had not the Japanese recaptured all their mystery, industry, and their ingenuity plus more within one generation.

Never thought of it like that but you are spot on there.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Dream

The war with Japan and its conclusion would have been the greatest tragedy of all of recorded history had not the Japanese recaptured all their mystery, industry, and their ingenuity plus more within one generation.

Dream,

Are suggesting this will happen for Palestine? The reason I ask: offhand I can't think of any modern apartheit economies that have been thriving, especially for a people has been subjected to almost a decade a slow genocide that has been effectuated by means of economic privations punctuated by military onslaughts that devastate the population.

What do you think the current campaign will do to Gaza's industrial capacity? Do you see the Palestinians building car factories that can compete with Toyota in the near future?

Will the US take as much of interest in rebuilding the occupied territories as it did in rebuilding Japan after WWII? Or do you think Israel will take it upon itself to invest in the territories they are about to seal off behind a separation barrier?

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Dream

The war with Japan and its conclusion would have been the greatest tragedy of all of recorded history had not the Japanese recaptured all their mystery, industry, and their ingenuity plus more within one generation.

It is still a tragedy, although the majority Japanese don`t suffer the aftermaths thanks to many people including great Americans (but Japan does seem weird IMO in the sense that it kind of seems more protestant than any protestant country I can think of, you`d think nuns were covertly running the country in the background, seriously).

With regards to the bomb, I just want to get one thing straight. Never mind the past. What was done was done, American casualties were avoided.

But Americans will hear from the Japanese, Anglo-Americans or Japanese Americans like me in the near future as Americans are denied the opportunity to learn what the bomb is about. You`d think twice about celebrating it every year, while wining about Pearl Harbor (every year), even making Pearl Harbor movies..(I mean give me a break..). Make a movie on Hiroshima and everyone would be puking their lunch.

And the one thing I want to make clear is that dropping A. bombs is not a viable option and not justifiable by any means in the future. To note Americans involved before the bombs were dropped probably did suffer in a big way. We probably just decide not to look at it because of the glorification if that makes any sense to you.

There is no glory in massacre.


TK

p.s. I recently did find those who`s mothers are losing limbs because of the bomb etc.. the son was going crazy. it almost seemed like voodoo magic.