Facist Israel Strikes Again

[Tao_Equus]

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza

Israel murders 155+ Palestinians in a deeply cowardly aerial assault on Gaza. Timed precisely to coincide with children leaving school and being on the street this is barbaric behaviour of the very lowest kind. Sick *******s.

[dmsingh]

Tao- I condemn both sides. Hamas is equally guilty for cowardly
rocket attacks on Israel. dmsingh

[I, Brian]

That's indeed the problem, dmsingh - Israel remains provoked. The main condemnation in these circumstances generally tends to be one of over-reaction, rather than no reaction should ever have taken place. However, Israel remains a country in a state of war, and I don;t recall any nation in such circumstances placing human rights as a priority.

[dmsingh]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

That's indeed the problem, dmsingh - Israel remains provoked. The main condemnation in these circumstances generally tends to be one of over-reaction, rather than no reaction should ever have taken place. However, Israel remains a country in a state of war, and I don;t recall any nation in such circumstances placing human rights as a priority.

Initiating attacks in the midst of civilians, invites civilian
casualties. Israel is in a state of war. I'm sure they would much
rather be dealing with human rights than Qassam rockets.

[kiwimac]

Easy, simple solution, bundle the Israelis up and shift 'em to Madagascar or the caribbean or the sodding moon for all I care.

[dmsingh]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

Easy, simple solution, bundle the Israelis up and shift 'em to Madagascar or the caribbean or the sodding moon for all I care.

Dislike of Israel and Israelis seems to know no bounds.
That would be a temporary fix at best.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by dmsingh

Initiating attacks in the midst of civilians, invites civilian
casualties. Israel is in a state of war. I'm sure they would much
rather be dealing with human rights than Qassam rockets.

Indeed - yesterday was bad enough, but to continue on today - it's throwing rocks into the hornets nest.

Israel has made every effort to cut off the Palestinians, and somehow they imagine that after all these decades, that the Palestinians can be defeated via missile strikes?

All they are doing is setting in motion the next wave of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians IMO. Olmert always sounded like a jerk, but now he's on a rampage.

[kiwimac]

People who have been the subject of centuries of genocidal attacks SHOULD have learned not to do it to others but I guess not.

[dmsingh]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

People who have been the subject of centuries of genocidal attacks SHOULD have learned not to do it to others but I guess not.

As I said in my original post, I condemn both sides.
No rockets fired, no rockets returned.

[TealLeaf]

I sometimes think the reason that Israelis and Arabs fight so much is because their respective religions inculcate violence too much. There's a lot of stuff about who your enemies are and what you should do to them in both of those religions especially Islam.

If God is the word and the word is God what is written in the books makes all the difference in the world. That being said don't take this as an endorsement for Christianity. Buddhism or Hinduism seem to work well also.

In regards to violence I am interested to read what is written in the Sikh religion. After all that religion evolved in the midst of Muslim persecution such that every male Sikh actually carries a dagger yet Sikhs in general seem to be a relatively peaceful lot.

[dauer]

TealLeaf,

I sometimes think the reason that Israelis and Arabs fight so much is because their respective religions inculcate violence too much.

Judaism as a religion doesn't inculcate violence. The state of Israel doesn't operate according to the values of the Jewish religion. It operates in opposition to them. V'ahavta et ha-ger or "Love the stranger/other" isn't something that Judaism, as a religion, glosses over. The Israeli gov't, on the other hand, could use some Jewish values.

That being said don't take this as an endorsement for Christianity. Buddhism or Hinduism seem to work well also.

Christianity and Buddhism both have their history of violence committed in the name of religion. I don't know enough about Hinduism's history to comment on it except to point out the caste system's dehumanization of untouchables.

[TealLeaf]

Originally Posted by dauer

Judaism as a religion doesn't inculcate violence. The state of Israel doesn't operate according to the values of the Jewish religion. It operates in opposition to them. V'ahavta et ha-ger or "Love the stranger/other" isn't something that Judaism, as a religion, glosses over. The Israeli gov't, on the other hand, could use some Jewish values

Islam doesn't gloss over love either. It's just the Koran and Hadith, in my opinion, talk about violence far too much. Similarly the old testament contains quite a bit of extreme violence to include genocide that is willed by God for his people to carry out.

Again it is about the relative amount of inculcation. Yes of course all religions contain bits about peace and bits about violence. That is necessary for a complex world. What I am saying is that Judaism and Islam (and again especially Islam) have far more bits about violence and less bits about peace than other religions.

Islam being the violently inculcated body of scripture that it is has it out for Hindus as bad as it does for the Jews yet Hindus are slower to move towards vengeance. This could be looked at as a weakness on the part of Hinduism but in the long run I think that it a better strategy. Better to turn the other cheek several times so it is clear to everyone who the wrongful aggressor is before starting a war. There is no substitute for the moral high ground.

That being said Israel is in a tighter spot than India so perhaps their response strategy is the only one available.

Perhaps it was a mistake for me to include Judaism's and Islam's inculcation of violence in the same sentence since Islam's inculcation of violence is magnitudes larger than Judaism's but I think the point is still a valid one.

[dauer]

Similarly the old testament contains quite a bit of extreme violence to include genocide that is willed by God for his people to carry out.

The "Old Testament" is a Christian text, understood in a Christian context. The Tanach is a Jewish text and, understood in a Jewish context, the Torah is not a validation for or inculcation of violence. For Judaism Amalek no longer exists (unless taken on a more metaphorical level in which case it might refer to, say, an aspect of the individual person) or is impossible to identify because Judaism goes out of its way to invalidate the continuing applicability of limited aspects of its sacred texts. For the same reason "eye for an eye" as per the Talmud, means that a person must provide the financial equivalent for the eye, not his own eye, and it reaches this conclusion by applying logic which is the backbone of Jewish thought on practical matters of activity in the world.

What I am saying is that Judaism and Islam (and again especially Islam) have far more bits about violence and less bits about peace than other religions.

That's a particularly biased perspective that was fed by a Christianity that demonized Judaism and maintained a negative interpretation of its Old Testament in order to make room for a new testament.

That being said Israel is in a tighter spot than India so perhaps their response strategy is the only one available.

I think they could be doing more to help ease the conflict. I think they're too strong-armed in their tactics. But I also your statement provides a helpful contrast with the suggestion that we should all just turn the other cheek. It's a nice ideal but the real world is far from ideal, nor are we humans. I think an approach that includes some degree of self-preservation is more realistic. But I also think the Israeli gov't has gone beyond bare bones self-preservation and indeed, could be doing a lot of harm to itself.

Perhaps it was a mistake for me to include Judaism's and Islam's inculcation of violence in the same sentence since Islam's inculcation of violence is magnitudes larger than Judaism's but I think the point is still a valid one.

I don't think it is. Christianity includes the OT and, at least in the case of some Protestant groups, does little to ground them in a tradition of understanding that castrates the potential to see them as a doctrine of violence. Judaism was already doing that as something that could recognizably be identified as Judaism was forming.

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza

Israel murders 155+ Palestinians in a deeply cowardly aerial assault on Gaza. Timed precisely to coincide with children leaving school and being on the street this is barbaric behaviour of the very lowest kind. Sick *******s.

One question though. Why is it that all I see on the Israel side are 10 inch holes in the walls of houses, and hundreds of bits and pieces of hand made rockets, where as it looks like the end of the world on the Palestinian side? Such media coverage is surely not in the interest of Israel, but where is the damage on the Israel side to provoke such a planned attack?

I`ve been wondering why it always seems like Israel is doing a number on Hamas targets, months after a cease-fire. While few casualities are sustained in Israel, at least what it seems like compared to the Palestinians. Why is not the justification of such an attack portrayed in the media as well?

Or is Israel just striking back in vengeance multi-fold?

[dauer]

I thought these takes on the situation by a fairly liberal Jewish mag might be of interest:

Tikkun Current Thinking - A variety of Perspectives on the Israeli Assaul on Gaza

One of the things I like is that the articles do present a few different perspectives.