faith and works

[Dor]

Originally Posted by kenod

On the whole I believe we should not judge what others do. The Christian life is a work in progress and we all grow and mature. There are times, however, when we are called upon to judge ... consider Paul's first letter to the Corinthians when he upbraided them for allowing a man to have his father's wife.

As Christians we feel impelled to do good and eschew evil … of course, the definition of “evil” is not always clear cut (eg, what tv programs to watch, alcohol, clothing, etc).

What trips me up most times is what I don't do ... going the extra mile or being quiet when I should speak up.

Yes Kenod we are told in the Bible to judge everything. In todays world that is not politically correct, so we keep our mouths shut too much.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by kenod

On the whole I believe we should not judge what others do. The Christian life is a work in progress and we all grow and mature. There are times, however, when we are called upon to judge ... consider Paul's first letter to the Corinthians when he upbraided them for allowing a man to have his father's wife.

As Christians we feel impelled to do good and eschew evil … of course, the definition of “evil” is not always clear cut (eg, what tv programs to watch, alcohol, clothing, etc).

What trips me up most times is what I don't do ... going the extra mile or being quiet when I should speak up.

Somethings are not clear cut, or at least the scriptures don't address certian issues specifically. But there are certain principles we can apply (i.e. WWJD?). But for the most part, I believe that we ought to be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. In matters of right and wrong, we will hear the voice of the Spirit when confronted with questionable things, but we should also be aware of we how we develop convictions, that is, recognizing that it is a process as a result of direct obedience to the will of God. We hone our senses to God's leading in our lives. The danger is when we allow ourselves to drift toward sin, for if we become complacent in our Christian life, our conscience can become seared like a hot iron.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dor

Yes Kenod we are told in the Bible to judge everything. In todays world that is not politically correct, so we keep our mouths shut too much.

I think "discernment" is the term.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Somethings are not clear cut, or at least the scriptures don't address certian issues specifically. But there are certain principles we can apply (i.e. WWJD?). But for the most part, I believe that we ought to be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. In matters of right and wrong, we will hear the voice of the Spirit when confronted with questionable things, but we should also be aware of we how we develop convictions, that is, recognizing that it is a process as a result of direct obedience to the will of God. We hone our senses to God's leading in our lives. The danger is when we allow ourselves to drift toward sin, for if we become complacent in our Christian life, our conscience can become seared like a hot iron.

I agree with what you are saying here, but the obvious question always comes to mind: If we are all being led by the same Holy Spirit why are we not all heading in exactly the same direction.

I don't want to make specific issues about these points but there is not consistent agreement among Christians on many important subjects: eg Iraq, divorce, stem cells, ...

[cyberpi]

Faith requires work. It is not a state of the mind... it is work. Everything is recorded by work. Even changing the mind takes work. The difference between good works and bad works is what? It is matching the deed with the will of the neighbor you do the work for. Read through the parables that describe Faith. Jesus (pbuh) healed the people who came and asked to be healed. He praised the example of Faith the Centurion described in Capernaum over everything he saw in Israel.

Also, the top commandment was what... to Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind? The heart represents all that you do with the body because all of the body's energy is pumped through the heart via the blood. So it is Love God with all your works, choices, and thoughts. Faith then is just applying your works to someone else's choices, or having someone else apply their work to your choices. That way whether or not it is good can be a mutually decided issue. If you think about it, it is a matter of loving others as you wish them to love you, because most people I know like to have a say in how they are Loved. I've seen some people refer to that as the Platinum rule.

The Mustard seed parable is the Faith placed by God (swt)... the work is done per your choice. When you plant a seed it was God's design, but you are making the choice of where and how to plant it. You direct the power. The plant grows on its own and in this way God (swt) is doing work per your choice. In the same way people can place Faith in each other. God (swt) has asked us to do certain things... and clearly people have a choice. In doing it we place Faith in God (swt). It is NOT that God (swt) needs the work to be done for him... it is part of our lesson. God (swt) invented this world and the purpose of work is to record the history. Remember when Jesus (pbuh) said that some work (healing) required prayer?

Parable of the talents: I think the money represents knowledge or a skill of labor, since that is what it buys. God (swt) gives different knowledge or skills to different people. In trade, people share Faith in each other, for with the purchase others choose when and where your skill is used. The seeds given to each other propagate and multiply. So placing Faith is providing your seed for somebody else to choose how, when, and where to plant it. Knowledge and skills are duplicated. In English the word talent has found its place, while the definition of Faith misplaced. Where should Faith be placed? In the Faithful.

An opinion, guided or misguided... but I'm certain Jesus (pbuh) definition of Faith requires work. Every thought and every action here requires work, whether it is your will, my will, or HIS will.

[Caimanson]

Ciberpi, I sort of agree with what you are saying. If you have true belief unimpeded by fear or doubt, then yes it will manifest in action.
The question is: what is the nature of those actions, is it true faith or is it the act of your own will, your own ideas or perhaps because you are expected by church, society and peers to do so?

Which is exactly the point made by Kenod: why do head in different directions if we are led by the same Spirit? Are we?

[InLove]

I believe it is the Spirit of grace that brings faith and works together. And grace surely must belong to Love, because without the spark of Love, I don't see how grace can operate. I also submit that sometimes--often, even--it is this very same Spirit that leads us into the wilderness so that we are given the opportunity to respond faithfully--to ultimately and totally depend on the grace and mercy of the Holy Spirit of God to show us what good work really is, and to bring forth our understanding of what it is He wants from us in the way of "fruits". I see this not only in the Biblcal account of the temptation of Jesus, but also in the accounts of Abraham and Isaac and that of Hagar and Ishmael. And I see it in both the messages of James and of Paul. I tend to think of what seems to be dichotemy as more an issue of dialect, perhaps.

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

I believe it is the Spirit of grace that brings faith and works together. And grace surely must belong to Love, because without the spark of Love, I don't see how grace can operate. I also submit that sometimes--often, even--it is this very same Spirit that leads us into the wilderness so that we are given the opportunity to respond faithfully--to ultimately and totally depend on the grace and mercy of the Holy Spirit of God to show us what good work really is, and to bring forth our understanding of what it is He wants from us in the way of "fruits". I see this not only in the Biblcal account of the temptation of Jesus, but also in the accounts of Abraham and Isaac and that of Hagar and Ishmael. And I see it in both the messages of James and of Paul. I tend to think of what seems to be dichotemy as more an issue of dialect, perhaps.

InPeace,
InLove

As stated in the Bible, faith is a gift, works is what one does with that gift. It could be five talents worth, or three, or one...and the master will call for an accounting upon his return to those his servants he entrusted with such...

v/r

Q

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

As stated in the Bible, faith is a gift, works is what one does with that gift. It could be five talents worth, or three, or one...and the master will call for an accounting upon his return to those his servants he entrusted with such...
v/r
Q

That is such a great lesson ... the person who was so afraid of making a mistake, that he did nothing with his "talent", was the one who was condemned. Better to try and muck up, than to not even have a go ... God looks on the heart. I find much comfort in that ... I guess that's because I make so many mistakes!!!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

That is such a great lesson ... the person who was so afraid of making a mistake, that he did nothing with his "talent", was the one who was condemned. Better to try and muck up, than to not even have a go ... God looks on the heart. I find much comfort in that ... I guess that's because I make so many mistakes!!!

Then perhaps you may consider the opposite. Works, without faith are as rags to be burned with the chaff?

How true that is, if one considers. "Why do you give?" Because I'm supposed to. "Ok, what does it mean to you?" Nothing really.

"Then why do you give?"...

What is my point? The giving is not for the recipient, but rather for the benefit of the giver...do you see? Of course the recipient is grateful. But what of the giver? Might as well be a defective slot machine.

What happens to a defective slot machine? gets tossed into the garbage heap...

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by kenod

I agree with what you are saying here, but the obvious question always comes to mind: If we are all being led by the same Holy Spirit why are we not all heading in exactly the same direction.

I don't want to make specific issues about these points but there is not consistent agreement among Christians on many important subjects: eg Iraq, divorce, stem cells, ...

Some of these things sure have negative effects and influences, but not all the time. The Holy Spirit is not some machine that churns out magical formulas and implants them into our minds. That's what discernment is for. God gave us a mind to think and reason in the abstract.

But we prefer to think about the concrete and technical details instead!!! We want to compartmentalise life and society rather than looking inward at our heart and soul, rather than considering how we'll thinking and feeling we want to change the way the world works.

One man adapts the world to himself. Another adapts himself to the world.

That's the thing about divorce and stem cells -- it's about how the world works, not about our attitude towards people. When we argue about divorce and stem cells we are trying to structure the outside world, the universe external to the human soul. Rather than dealing with our own personal problems and issues, we choose to talk about divorce and stem cells. That's because we want to distract ourselves. Personal reform is harder than politics so we choose to talk about politics because it's just easier for us.

[seattlegal]

Hmm, isn't it the Holy Spirit who works through us?

Originally Posted by 1 Cor 12:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
<"Faith" part>
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
<"works" part>

The "works" are not our works, but the Holy Spirit's works! {blinding flash of the obvious--for me, at least!}