Faith, Works, and Salvation

[lunamoth]

I believe we are saved by grace and I've taken to calling it radical grace, which is kind of redundant but I mean to distinguish it from the 'grace' that is earned by believing a certain way or by doing certain things. Grace by definition is unearned.

Tonight I was reflecting on the following passage from Luke:

32Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
35The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."
36The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."
38There was a written notice above him, which read:|sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.["
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

(Luke 23:32-43)

I was struck by two things. The first is of Jesus' words in this passage: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." The soldiers who crucified Christ did not believe He was the Son of God and they were forgiven. How can I think that anyone else would be less worthy of God's grace and forgiveness? Second, one of the criminals at least feared God, and it is not clear whether he thought Jesus was the Son of God or whether he just knew that they were crucifying an innocent man, which is an unrighteous act. At any rate, he knew he was guilty and being punished justly, and we might conclude that his deeds would not earn him salvation. Yet, Jesus answered him: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." A last minute, death's door salvation for someone who may or may not have believed in Jesus as the Son? To me the message is that it is not what you believe, it is not what you do, but it is God's grace that saves. Now, we have a lifetime to figure out what to do with that salvation.

my 2 c
lunamoth

[earl]

Originally Posted by earl

Great topic Path as 1 of the things that I think most divides Christians from other Christians let alone from non-Christians is what they interpret "salvation" or to be saved means. You mentioned Aramaic language-based interpretations, (actual language that Jesus may have spoken). Very interesting book in that regard is Neil Douglas-Klotz, "The Hidden Gospel: Decoding the Spiritual Message of the Aramaic Jesus," which offers his alternative interpretations of New Testament verses based on Aramaic re-translations of alternative meanings, (of course he is a Sufi )

So as to "saved," he notes its Aramiac term is heyya which came from hayye meaning life force. then retranslates the verse from Mark 8:35-36 about "saving one's life by losing it" as follows:

"Everyone who desires to give energy to his separate, subconscious self
will eventually find that self surrendered,
extinguished in the Only Self.
Everyone who surrenders her separate self,
the way I have done and hoped for,
will give energy to it.
For what advantage do you have if
your development in form exceeds
all that the world can offer,
but your soul remains incomplete?"

What is lost and what is saved/found are the questions we ask ourselves throughout our journey in life. Take care, Earl

To me in accord with Dougla-Klotz' notion here, there are several intertwining concepts, whose notions perhaps are not considered traditionally the way I mean them here, (though obviously I'm not traditional in my thinking ) I like to use the metaphor of God being the Ground upon which we trod our path. Faith is the sometimes assured, sometimes shaky belief that regardless of whether our path is rocky or smooth, twists and turns, or goes straight; whether we stumble and fall or thow ourselves down upon that ground in agony, we nevertheless believe that ground is always underneath our feet. Works is the trodding of that path. The irony is if we want to have awareness of God, (gnosis); to realize we always have been and always will be saved by the grace of that Ground, we need to exert efforts, be they contemplative/meditative or what have you. See for me it's not enough to have faith because my small-minded ego tends to make me forget that reality. Faith is of assistance though, as when we walk through the valley of the shadow, (go through our personal dark periods-I've been going through a little fog myself lately) and cannot feel or see that ground, believing it's there and all has some sort of meaning does help us continue to put 1 foot in front of the other. Like that old saying goes, it's not how many times you fall down; it's how many times you get up. The i nteresting thing about the intertwining of faith, works, and awareness, however, is that often how we define things or in what we place our faith changes as a result of the works-awareness interaction, as awareness may bring new forms of understanding. That in turn may change the nature of the works we do, etc. in a syngergistic "Celtic" knot. Take care, earl

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by earl

...intertwining concepts...God being the Ground upon which we trod our path. ...we nevertheless believe that ground is always underneath our feet. Works is the trodding of that path. The irony is if we want to have awareness of God, (gnosis); to realize we always have been and always will be saved by the grace of that Ground, we need to exert efforts, be they contemplative/meditative or what have you. ... Faith is of assistance though, as when we walk through the valley of the shadow, (go through our personal dark periods-I've been going through a little fog myself lately) and cannot feel or see that ground, believing it's there ... the intertwining of faith, works, and awareness, ...as awareness may bring new forms of understanding. That in turn may change the nature of the works we do, etc. in a syngergistic "Celtic" knot. Take care, earl

I like this earl. Forgive me the omits in your words (I liked them all)--it just helped me to go through and highlight some of the thoughts I really liked, especially introducing the part about awareness. Beautiflly expressed, faith and works are like a dance (I love dance as a metaphor!), intertwined, moving in grace. And it is the awareness of it all that is our salvation starting here and now, and this awareness, or relationship, is to be cultivated.

peace,
lunamoth

[path_of_one]

Thank you all so far for your replies. I myself believe in "radical grace" as lunamoth puts it, but I do agree that if we find awareness of God, and have faith in our experience of God, it is manifest in our actions. As one person put it (forgetting the name, and paraphrasing): "If people really believed what they say they do, they wouldn't live this way." Our awareness/experience of God, whatever form that takes, can only yield faith through our own contemplative and prayerful efforts, and this process, if genuine, will yield a great desire to be in accordance with God's will and thus will alter our actions. But none of that gets us into heaven. We were already saved the moment we were created, the gates of heaven flung wide open to all of us. What faithful nurturance of our awareness of God, manifest in our actions, will get us is our own recognition that God is awaiting us with open arms, that the kingdom of heaven is available to us. Only the grace of God allows it, but it is what we do with that grace that allows ourselves to perceive it. Reality is what it is, and all is upheld solely by the grace of God, but how we perceive it makes all the difference.

[Bandit]

from what i can see, grace faith & works all go together. Grace is HIS part, works through our faith is our part. Through our faith in Christ, God can work in us, just like He did with Jesus, the apostles & the prophets.

[I, Brian]

I have to admit, I find the discussion over "works vs faith" curious - I would have presumed that faith would express itself as works, therefore you see the fruits in action. However, a lot of the focus on "faith" I sometimes find hard to reconcile with a "faith" that results in "works".

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I have to admit, I find the discussion over "works vs faith" curious - I would have presumed that faith would express itself as works, therefore you see the fruits in action. However, a lot of the focus on "faith" I sometimes find hard to reconcile with a "faith" that results in "works".

In otherwords, "shut up and get the job done"...I have to agree, Brian.

v/r

Q

[enton]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

As a Christian, are we saved by our faith/belief or by what we do with it? This key question is discussed throughout the New Testament, I believe to no real conclusion. Some writers emphasize faith/belief, others emphasize works. And on into today- some churches and theologians think salvation rests on one's beliefs, while other think it rests on one's actions. I would wager that we all agree it really rests on God's grace, but it brings us back to the question of how that grace is metered out amongst us. Is it freely given to all? Only to believers? Only to believers whose actions testify their beliefs- and how much of this is enough? Only to those whose actions follow Christ's example, no matter what their beliefs? I have some opinions of my own, but my point with this thread is not to try to convince you all into my own thoughts on the matter, but rather I am very interested in the (no doubt) varied perspectives that are out there.

For anyone interested in discussing what the original Greek and/or Aramaic said, I'd welcome the illumination- because I don't know if the word "belief/believe" was originally multiple different meanings/words in the original text and it just came to be all lumped under that English word, or if it really is consistent throughout.

Here's a few passages to start us off:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3: 16

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The demons also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
James 2:19-20

Psalms 74:12 For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.

I Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God also works for the salvation of all men, but it cannot be denied that there are children of disobedience. As a God of justice, he can't just bring them to eternal life, when they don't repent and abhor those which are evil. God is not a dictator Creator. He by his holiness gives men free will (no interference from Him in the moment of decision) but as a loving God, He also predestine some.

Faith is a crucial ingredient of the knowledge of the truth. Because truth came from God and this God of truth and of knowledge is an Invisible One, so we have to live by faith if we do aim to live the life promised by Christ.

But wait, God indeed works, so do we also! It's a must.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[flowperson]

Unless I'm seriously mistaken, the leaders of the Lutheran faith (except I believe the Missouri Synod) and the Vatican came to an agreement in the late 90's that at least good works and grace (I don't recall if faith was mentioned, but it would seem to me to be a given) are both parts of G-d's plan for humanity's well being on the earth and share equivalency.

Does anyone else remember this happening, or am I trippin' ?

flow....

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Unless I'm seriously mistaken, the leaders of the Lutheran faith (except I believe the Missouri Synod) and the Vatican came to an agreement in the late 90's that at least good works and grace (I don't recall if faith was mentioned, but it would seem to me to be a given) are both parts of G-d's plan for humanity's well being on the earth and share equivalency.

Does anyone else remember this happening, or am I trippin' ?

flow....

No, I don't know about this. I'm studying theology at a Lutheran seminary and it seems I should have heard if there was such an agreement, esp. since there are also Catholic students studying there. I have heard much about the value of grace. It has seemed that the word "grace" is every other word they say and I get the feeling "works" is a dirty word. I have heard that here in Ontario the Evangelical Lutheran Church has worked out an agreement with the Anglican Church for a Common Communion. That was finalized very recently--like perhaps one or two years ago.

[flowperson]

Hmmmmm...maybe agreement was not a good choice of wording to use. I distinctly remember news reports of a concurrence between the leaders of each denomination, and that their concurrence applied regarding the relative importance of grace and good works to human existence, which had been one of the the major dogmatic disputes between Catholic and Lutheran teachings and beliefs for centuries.

Again I may be wrong, or maybe it was just another corporate-owned media distortion of the truth that entered my mind like a destructive virus and only now emerged in a CR discussion

Ask your professors and let us know about it if you can find the time...thanks.

flow....

[cyberpi]

In my opinion, (and I've done it), the worst thing to do to the word 'Faith' is to use it to mean a religion or a set of beliefs, or even to do what is good for someone. It removes from the proper definition of the word. The word Faith in the Bible or in the Qur'an are not applicable to 'a religion' or 'a belief'.

What does the following mean to anyone?
Matthew 17:20. I tell you the truth, If you have Faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.

[jesusismyfriend2006]

I've been struggling with this for a long time. I believe that we are saved by faith and faith alone. The Bible says that works are importatnt. I believe works are important, because they show the world what you believe. The Bible says that Faith without works is dead. However, works without Faith doesn't bring about Salvation either. Jesus wants us to deny ourselves and follow Him, but He wants our works to be genuine as well. He often talked about the hypocracy of the Pharisees, and how they would do good deeds just to be seen by man. There is a verse that says that God plans what works we will do in advance. As long as we love God and put our trust in Him, He will reveal Himself to us and show us what He wants from us. To believe anything else makes God out to be prejudiced, or makes it sound like God doesn't want to save everyone. As long as someone is soft towards the Holy Spirit, they should produce good fruits in my opinion.

[JustifiedByFaith]

Salvation is by faith alone, and not by any of our self efforts.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God..."

Ephesians 2:8