Fear in the God Fearing

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by arthra

I haven't gotten into this fear issue as yet but my reaction is that "fear" is a very general term and we should consider it a moment..

The first time it's mentioned in the Bible it's the fear of man..not God.

See:

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Genesis 9:2

Meaning of the Hebrew word:

fear, reverence, terror
a) fear, terror
b) reverence
c) object of reverence
d) awe-inspiring spectacle or deed

There's an article that has ten different words of meanings for fear in the Qur'an.

See:

Usage of “Fear” in the Qur’an .:Tayyibaat:.

So I don't think it's so easy to discuss or come to any fast conclusions say about fear and monotheistic religions..


I can fear my neighbor's displeasure if I do something ..

I can fear to get a ticket for travelling to fast..

It doesn't have to be fear of a cosmic punishment..

- Art

Thank you for your contribution, Art. It is really shedding more light on the subject.

Atheists think that theists are poor neurotic people worship, do good, avoid the unpleasant things out of only fear of a power that exist only in their imagination...

God is love, only is love. A true believer doesnt fear God because God is revengul. No, God is above and higher than this. He can make us fully obedient if He wants in a glimpse of eye. Yet, He wants us to come to Him willingly, to serve Him willingly...


I believe that God educates us and that's for our benefit, not His. A man once came to a clothes store to buy a piece of cloth. The owner the store despised the man, and treated him badly, and called him names. The owner of the store said that he stayed three months after this no one came to buy his goods. This story is a real one, and it is sample of many taking places everyday.

I dont know why we should be afraid of God in this sense?! A true believer thanks God for that, becasue he knows that God educates him, and promotes by him to Him. The loss of products is nothing in comparison to the lesson this person has learnt.

For me, the most thing a believer should be afraid of is the loss of connection with God, the emptiness that invades heart once you mistreat His creation or you infringe His rules, the hell that fires in one's heart..The most fearful thing is to lose connection with God, to loss Hudur, presence of heart with Him..that period of education involves depression and sadness, which is nothing but the loss of presence of heart and its connection with God...

fear in disconnecting/losing the swetness of connection with the beloved..

[Dream]

Perhaps the nicest thing is that Abraham died old and full of years. The 'Full of years' part indicates satisfaction, like someone who goes to bed knowing they've had a productive day. That is really the only way to die right.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Atheists think that theists are poor neurotic people worship, do good, avoid the unpleasant things out of only fear of a power that exist only in their imagination...

You have fallen into common a debate fallacy where you've attempted to describe how others think, when we really should stick to talking about how we think and let others speak for themselves.

This atheist thinks that every aspect of human nature can be found in the any group, provided a generous enough population. Each religious group or non-religious group is filled with a rainbow of fruity flavors. None of them can be reduced to a simple stereotype.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

The story exists in the Quran. I agree with you that what Abraham peace be upon him did with the idols is the most important lesson that God wants us to learn:

DIB, I am glad that we agree on the importance of Avraham's smashing of idols.

That's why, Avi, I find that evolution is what Abraham peace be upon him really smashed becasue it is a material concept, it takes the form of idols..

I do not follow your logic here Dialogue. I never said that Avraham advocated for evolution over creationism. I said that Avraham smashed idols. And I said that I believe that creationism is an idol.

How did you come to Avraham smashed evolution

Well, Avi, I wonder if you have never read "Atlas of creation". It is a book by Harun Yahya.

Dialogue, it seems to me that you are sincere in trying to understand this argument. The website that you linked to has some citations from legitimate sources and there is detailed description of the ideas presented, which support creationism, of course.

My initial impression of this website is that there is an agenda to prove creationism and all of their description is in support of this conclusion which has already been reached.

This is not the way that real learning is achieved. One must be very intellectually honest to learn.

Here are a few quotes from Wiki about Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya) whose website you are quoting:

He is against Zionism and Freemasonry and sees them as very interrelated movements, though he denounces anti-Semitism[4] and terrorism[5], which he says is a product of Darwinism, not religious fanaticism.[6] Oktar had defended his views by litigation; he is responsible for the blocking of numerous, high-profile Web sites in Turkey.

When one studies a scientific subject, evolution, it must be done using a scientific approach. The person that you quote has a political agenda which underlies his perspective. I hope you will take a close look at his activities before you quote him as a reliable source for creationism.

Oktar runs two organizations, including the Milli Değerleri Koruma Vakfı (Foundation to Protect National Values) which focuses on "moral issues" and the Science Research Foundation (Bilim Araştırma Vakfı, or BAV), which is centered around promoting creationism.[7] Oktar founded the Science Research Foundation "to [establish]...peace, tranquility and love,"[8] though the BAV is described in the media as "a secretive Islamic sect"[9] or a "cult-like organization, that jealously guards the secrets of its considerable wealth."[10] In 2008, he was sentenced by a Turkish court to three years in prison for "creating an illegal organization for personal gain."[11]

By the way, I like your name, Dialogue is the Best, I agree this is better than throwing bombs !!

Ref: Adnan Oktar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Yes, I agree. The real locus of cause-and-effect power is in the invisible inside of nature. In the past this invisible world was thought to be the realm of deities and departed spirits. One searched for ways to ritually placate these entities in order to effect a desirable outcome in the visible world. We have several thousand years of human ideas about the nature of the invisible realm which are, quite naturally, phrased in language which presents these ideas in anthropomorphic terms. By contrast we have only been considering these processes in scientific terms for a mere couple of centuries.

I think you hit on something important here. Something obvious to the atheist but wrapped in a superstitious confusion for those stuck fast in the mire of heady and deep seated religious paradigms. Yet under any legal system ignorance is no excuse under the law. And if you err in ignorance you can only expect to be held to account. Yet as we see here DIB is not only ignorant of even the basics but purposefully embraces that ignorance as though it were righteous to remain ignorant. She makes idols of snippets of poor science propagated by a few fringe loonies and ignores the findings of the 100s of 1000s of biologists and evolutionary scientists who can demonstrate with absolute clarity that evolution is real. She says her god wants her to know the truth but she has no intention of looking for it. Instead she hangs on every word of every crazy that panders to her desire to prove the infallibility of her indoctro/embraced beliefs. It becaomes a homage to her ego in the infallibility of her thinking, her thoughts themselves become the idol. Her ignorance feeds on itself in a self perpetuating loop. Atheism has only had a couple of centuries where its thinking did not invite ostacisation or execution. But understanding evolution and embracing atheism has a 'fitness' that cannot be denied. Truth and understanding of how things really work infers a power and creates a force that I hope is now unstoppable. As implied in Gould's punctuated equilibrium the cat is out of the bag, it cannot be put back. It will either be killed or rise swiftly to dominate.

Religion is more than a repository for outdated superstition and ritual. One of the most consistent themes within the ideologies of the monotheistic religions is the pursuit of justice. Justice equally applied regardless of one's class or economic strata. This is what gives Islam, in particular, it's appeal today. That justice may take the form of an extreme frontier justice such as the Taliban metes out, but even that can be an improvement over the endemic corruption of the secular governments that the masses of poor people are forced to live out lives of misery under.

Yeh, religions have always been ready to exploit the 'us and them' aspect of social divisions. Yet no matter how flawed and rotten western profit orientated systems may be I could never ever agree that they were improved upon by the masogynistic totalitairianism of the Taliban.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Avi1223

I do not follow your logic here Dialogue. I never said that Avraham advocated for evolution over creationism. I said that Avraham smashed idols. And I said that I believe that creationism is an idol.

Well, Avi, I understood from your words that as Abraham peace be upon him smashed idols, we should also smashed creationism because it is an idol too, according to your view.

How did you come to Avraham smashed evolution

Well, Avi, I am gonna explain to you how I see the matter. Evolution is a materialistic theory which believed only on what is seen, and insists on explaining everything materialistically. In this, evolution is similar to idols. material/ material. Idol can be an idea according to the wikipedia:

Idolatry

is usually defined asworship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a monotheistic God.

Source: Idolatry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Evolution sees that there is no creator. Hence, evolutionists worship this idea. To worship, Avi, simply means to serve, or giving wowth to something as the wikipedia says:

Worship literally means "worth-ship". Giving worth to something.[1] In its older sense in English of worthiness or respect ..

.

source: Worship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus, evolutionists worship an idol, an idea.

When I said that Abraham peace be upon him smashed evolution by smashing idols, I simply meant that he smashed that idol which took the form of an idea...he smashed that idol which stands as barrier of making creatures connect their creators, and achieve the true lasting happinness...he smahed that minds which try to minimize God's representive into a pure material being...he smashed that theory which closes the windows of spirit in man to free himself from the boundaries and the limitation of dust to the unlimitness of spirit and to the Divine presence of God...to the lasting uplifting light..

That's why evolution is an idol, Avi...

My initial impression of this website is that there is an agenda to prove creationism and all of their description is in support of this conclusion which has already been reached.

Do you want to say that Harun Yahya has other agenda than that of spreading the truth? What if has this agenda? Harun Yahya is a true believer, and he stands by his belief, and this is his right as it is the right of everyone in the world.

I think we havent the right to judge his belief, but to judge his findings. Are his scientific findings farbricated by him or true? Is there anything missing in his arguments? I think that what really matters. Harun Yahya has challenged all the evolutionists, and has lefted them nothing to say as his book is supported by pictures and detailed explanation. That what we should judge.

Atlas of creation has really put evolutionists in an embarrassing situation all over the world:
Comments on Atlas of Creation.com

This is not the way that real learning is achieved. One must be very intellectually honest to learn.

Well, Avi, have you seen anything in the book which contrast intellect?

No one is ever never baised. Everyone has beliefs of different knids: religious, political, social, economic,... You cant stand baised: either you are with the right or the wrong. There is no middle. Plus, the world of ideas doesnt stand void. It is for sure full of something, either without you paying attention to that. We are all experiencing many different ideas..travelling from this to this..testing this and this...doubting this and this till we reside in what our hearts and minds really relax to..

When Marx adopted evolutionism, he didnt adopted for its scientific proof. Not at all. He adopted because it was in the service of his ideas."

...Friedrich Engel wrote to his comrade Karl Marx in 1859: Incidentally Darwin, whom I am just reading, is absolutely splendid. One bastion of theology was still unbleached. Now it has fallen. Marx replied a month later: “ I have read Darwin’s book during the last four weeks. Although set out in the clumsy English style, this is the book that will provide the natural history basis for our work”.

Source: [Science & Religion in Islam]

By the way, I like your name, Dialogue is the Best, I agree this is better than throwing bombs !!

Thank you, Avi.

Dailogue is the best Vs throwing bombs: each one for the right situation

The first is for living: God says: [16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner.

The second one for those who try to break my life. God says:

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

[nativeastral]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Thank you, Avi.

Dailogue is the best Vs throwing bombs: each one for the right situation

The first is for living: God says: [16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner.

The second one for those who try to break my life. God says:

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

maybe we should send this to obama before he heads off to egypt

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

religions have always been ready to exploit the 'us and them' aspect of social divisions. Yet no matter how flawed and rotten western profit orientated systems may be I could never ever agree that they were improved upon by the masogynistic totalitairianism of the Taliban.

I was thinking more of someplace like Somalia where law and order is utterly lacking. But if you look at the ME in general, organized religion is the only thing strong enough to stand up to the despotic regimes. Sure the mullahs and so forth have their own political agenda so it's a mixed bag, but perhaps you see my point.

Chris

[Avi]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best
Thank you, Avi.

Dailogue is the best Vs throwing bombs: each one for the right situation

The first is for living: God says: [16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner.

The second one for those who try to break my life. God says:

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

Originally Posted by nativeastral

maybe we should send this to obama before he heads off to egypt

Right, along with - Have a nice day !

[shawn]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the bestQuote:
Idolatry
Quote:
is usually defined asworship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a monotheistic God.


Source: Idolatry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Evolution sees that there is no creator. Hence, evolutionists worship this idea. To worship, Avi, simply means to serve, or giving wowth to something as the wikipedia says: Quote:
Worship literally means "worth-ship". Giving worth to something.[1] In its older sense in English of worthiness or respect ..
.

I am not an atheist, but this bit caught my attention as the original meaning of the word worship is "to work for".

Another point is that those who worship a god, any G-d are in fact also committing idolatry according to your definition, as all we have is this idea that there is a G*d as we have no God in our midst, nor pillar of fire, nor avatar.
All we have are ancients texts which talk about such beings as God(s) and in fact the atheists could not exist if we had more than just an idea of God.
So all religions are idolatry.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Thus, evolutionists worship an idol, an idea.

You harp on about how clever some Muslim apologetic idiot is in writing his infallible critique on evolution but that idol of his hand that you worship with utter ignorance is one of your many false idols. You are simply in no position to say whether or not his work is of any value at all as you have demonstrated to everyone here already that you do not even have a child's understanding of what evolutionary theory consists of. You are like a woman blind since birth telling everybody how good a picture the Mona Lisa is. It is crass, absurd, meaningless and ultimately, pathetic. You have no interest in truth at all. The only thing you value is the egotistical supremacy of your own thinking to yourself. You have made an idol of your own thoughts.

Dailogue is the best Vs throwing bombs: each one for the right situation

I am an enemy of Islam. I despise it. Loathe it. I Wish it could be eradicated from human conciousness. But I wish no Muslim any harm because they are muslim. Yet by your statement, and that absurd verse you use to justify it, you believe me a mortal enemy. You think there can be justification for those like me who see Islam as the cancer it is to receive, when your verbal diarrhoea is exposed in all its frailties, bombs instead. I have long seen the double standard in you dialogue here. You exemplify it in this. With a big like it is a righteous. How weak you and your ego are that they have to fantasise about such things.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I was thinking more of someplace like Somalia where law and order is utterly lacking. But if you look at the ME in general, organized religion is the only thing strong enough to stand up to the despotic regimes. Sure the mullahs and so forth have their own political agenda so it's a mixed bag, but perhaps you see my point.

Chris

I do get the point you are trying to make but again in Somalia it is Islam that is largely responsible for the anarchy that persists there. In theory Islam may be strong enough to stand up against despotism, as we saw with the Islamic Revolution in Iran, but almost universally the actual fact is that the Imams and Mufti's are a part of the machinery of state. Propagandists that support and justify the feudal servitude that persists across the Muslim world.

[Avi]

Dialogue is the Best, I could refute your arguments point by point, but it would be of no use, because you have already reached your conclusion and therefore would disregard my comments.

So I will try to bring you to what I feel is the larger issue. Evolution and the development of humans is a highly complex issue. It must be studied within the domain of scientists and not politicians and religious leaders. This is not to say that everyone should not try to understand. What I am saying is that our sources must be accomplished scientists not amateurs.

The main source that you site is a religious leader and politician. So I would like to ask you to please provide another source which supports your belief about creationism. Please try to find a source with a strong scientific foundation. There are many excellent Muslim scientists and engineers in the world, so this should be easy, right ?

You seem like a very nice person to me. You have responded to my comments very civilly and politely. So I am glad to discuss this further with you. But will you admit that the study of the development of humans is a scientific endeavor and must therefore be supported by scientific evidence ?

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Evolution sees that there is no creator. Hence, evolutionists worship this idea.

This is quite incorrect and nothing of the sort occurs.

Evolution works as a method for explaining our observations of the world, and is neither worshipped nor exclusive of spiritual belief as any other such scientific theory.

No part of science invokes the need for a Creator, so if you dismiss evolution, you have to dismiss the whole sphere of sciences.

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Are his scientific findings farbricated by him or true? Is there anything missing in his arguments? I think that what really matters.

The anti-evolutionary claims really do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. The only people who subscribe to such ideas have faith that evolution is wrong, but such objections are not at all supported by science.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But understanding evolution and embracing atheism has a 'fitness' that cannot be denied.

Hi Tao,

But a person can understand and accept evolution without embracing atheism, too.

luna