Female circumcision

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by wil

With all our western attitude and platitudes about what we consider human rights violations and aberrant behavior, we are truly quite hypocritical on these issues.

I am no cultural anthropologist but seems to me that in most parts of the world a raise in consciousness in this regard came after some economic parity, increase in education and a general rise for most of the population on Maslow's hierarchy.

We are two centuries into freedom 1.5 into the abolishment of slavery, 1 in women's right to vote, barely .5 in civil rights...ie all people are created equal...

In the overall scheme of things we are just like an ex-smoker who has only quit for a month telling everyone else they oughta ban smoking everywhere, despite the fact that we were adamant supporters of the negative behavior just recently.

While it all is awful and something should be done....I think it is like supplying water to the desert by pouring it into the sand...first we need to provide the cups, and cisterns, and pipelines (build steps up maslow's hierarchy)

Interesting thoughts, especially the conclusion.

When I was in Kenya a few years ago female circumcision, or Female Genital Mutilation as it was known was a big issue. It was far from the norm but was not uncommon in the more remote areas.
Thanks to radio, school, church, and NGO campaigns howver, the practice, including its barbarity was being highlighted, and was in the decline.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by KarimK

That's the point, 17th (what's short for your nick? 17th or Angel? or none? :P). It's not faith, it's tradition. It has nothing to do with religion. Stupidity pretty much ignores religious boundaries.

Wil, should the guy who just recently stopped smoking refrain from telling others to stop too, just because he was wrong in the past? This isn't about being eurocentric and priggish. It's about basic common sense. Poverty and misery aren't excuses for barbarity.

17 or 17th is fine..

Traditions, are not always a good things indeed... But then again, religion to some can be seen as tradition...

[wil]

Originally Posted by KarimK

Wil, should the guy who just recently stopped smoking refrain from telling others to stop too, just because he was wrong in the past? This isn't about being eurocentric and priggish. It's about basic common sense. Poverty and misery aren't excuses for barbarity.

No but as described in Cav's post what got the smoker to quit was probably education. Telling others to stop never works...giving them reason to, making them understand the benefit.

What are the good excuses for barbarity?? The west still needs a few.

[bananabrain]

gosh, i had no idea tantawi was advocating this... or anything like the 97% figure in egypt... i am frankly appalled. i really sympathise with your situation MW and wish there was something i could do to help - perhaps there is an international association of ex-pat egyptians that knows about it and could raise it with, i don't know, the red crescent or something? which organisation has that sort of moral authority?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Faithfulservant]

oh Lord Jesus what a heart breaking thing. God created us and created that part of a womans body for a reason .. In marriage sex is supposed to be pleasurable for the man and the woman that was a gift from God and these people are stealing that from these women . the tragedy of this is so horrific. This would be tatamount to removing the entire penis of a man.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

What? How? I mean..... *pause*

How do they have it removed? Who FORCES that?... Like if some Jew(or perhaps other religious person) came up to me and said oh circumcision time, I'd just give him a back hand.... If you are not part of some religious faith and you don't buy into it, why the hell would you have a circumcision formed? And it is kinda different to a male circumcision, that only removes skin.... What you are removing is surley classed as a nerve end?

Laregely it is done in the home or in a filthy kiosk in the street, using anything from razor blades, kitchen knives and even broken glass - anaesthetic, whats that? The parents force it, the girls are often not told (they tend to be 9 - 11 years), the poor things comes home from school and her mother and assorted female relatives grab her and out it comes. The mind just boggles. There is quite a degree of mistrust between daughter and mother from that point on as you can well imagine.

You won't believe what I can hear at times : "Yeah, European women. They're good for having fun when you're young. But once you want to settle down, get serious, you have to marry a nice, local, Arabic girl. Because you know how these Europeans, they're mostly sluts. You don't want to marry a woman who has had sex with other men... what about your honor?"

Same here Karim, it is still the attitude of young trendy men. My husband is constantly told by his friends, that I am such a nice woman but when is he going to get divorced and get a PROPER wife. It is so insulting for both of us and just shows the ignorance that abounds here. Unfortunatley my husband has few friends now because he almost always lashes out when this is said to him, which is lovely for my honor but does nothing for his friendships. I do worry he will leave himself isolated.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

With all our western attitude and platitudes about what we consider human rights violations and aberrant behavior, we are truly quite hypocritical on these issues.

I am no cultural anthropologist but seems to me that in most parts of the world a raise in consciousness in this regard came after some economic parity, increase in education and a general rise for most of the population on Maslow's hierarchy.

We are two centuries into freedom 1.5 into the abolishment of slavery, 1 in women's right to vote, barely .5 in civil rights...ie all people are created equal...

In the overall scheme of things we are just like an ex-smoker who has only quit for a month telling everyone else they oughta ban smoking everywhere, despite the fact that we were adamant supporters of the negative behavior just recently.

While it all is awful and something should be done....I think it is like supplying water to the desert by pouring it into the sand...first we need to provide the cups, and cisterns, and pipelines (build steps up maslow's hierarchy)

Good points Wil. As you can imagine this is a hot topic at the moment. The Egyptian medical body is suggesting to the government that an outright ban will in fact increase the likelihood of deaths by driving it underground, as it were, rather than stopping it. They want to get funding for an educational program but of course it will take years to change attitudes. I suppose it is still a good thing that everyone seems to be trying to do something at last but I do worry that it will be a flash in the pan and forgotten about next week when something else comes to the political agenda.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

oh Lord Jesus what a heart breaking thing. God created us and created that part of a womans body for a reason .. In marriage sex is supposed to be pleasurable for the man and the woman that was a gift from God and these people are stealing that from these women . the tragedy of this is so horrific. This would be tatamount to removing the entire penis of a man.

This is what makes me so angry Faithfulservant. The Quran states that we must not hurt ourselves, as our bodies belong to Allah, held in trust and will be resurrected for the next life. Most scholars tell us that tatooing and body peircing is not allowed because of this reason - so how do they reconcile mutilation????

gosh, i had no idea tantawi was advocating this... or anything like the 97% figure in egypt... i am frankly appalled. i really sympathise with your situation MW and wish there was something i could do to help - perhaps there is an international association of ex-pat egyptians that knows about it and could raise it with, i don't know, the red crescent or something? which organisation has that sort of moral authority?

This is such a problem BB. The WHO and a German group have been working for years to try to stop this but are usually met with "we will not have european standards imposed upon us". So it becomes an issue about political control and the girls get forgetten in the struggle. Change is going to have to come from within, in order for it to be accepted. It is great news that the Grand Mufti has finally spoken out and said it is unIslamic. Whilst most think that he is the puppet of Mobarak (which may to an extent be true) he is 'the' religious authority here, so his fatwa is binding. My fingers are crossed that he will get support from other middle eastern Muslim countries now to quash the opinions of the supporters of this practice. I think a lot will depend on the line the Muslim Brotherhood and similar groups take, as to whether the people actually start to recognise it is an unIslamic practice.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by InLove

sometimes I worry about you. I'm afraid you will say the wrong thing to the wrong person and attract trouble to yourself. But I do admire you for speaking out. It can't be an easy thing to do.

Please don't worry about me, the worst they could do is kill me (not very bloody likely, more likely to just think of me as a typical european slut) and if they do kill me I will know I died trying to defend Allah and His true teaching. I do wonder what these people are going to say to Allah on the Day of Judgement in their defense?!

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Just found this, which shows what we are up against. It is a short recording of a tv discussion in Egypt. Both men are respected scholars at Al Azhar and have completely opposing views on this subject, yet use the same source to prove their case (ie the Sunnah).

YouTube - The Terror of the Female Circumcision in Islam I=

[KarimK]

One of the argument is that the Western woman is barren () because she is uncircumcised. And Muslim women bear more children because they're circumcised.

oh, and may I just say LOL to the last statement? I think it's the funniest thing I ever heard in my life. In the West, 100 % (no, really?!) of prostitutes are not circumcised.
Therefore we can deduce : the clitoris is the root of all evil in the world. It leads men to rape, lechery, adultery. Hence, the fact that women really are evil and we should remove that really sinful part of the body (that we still consider holy, by the way, but whatever) because it's the right thing to do.

Yay, let's go rip off the clits of all the raped women and prostitute, that'll solve eeeeeeeeeeeverything! Peace on earth! Happiness everywhere! Oh, Joy!

God, it makes me want to puke.

And this guy is supposed to be a scholar. I would feel REALLY bad if I were to justify FGM to a WOMAN and then argue with her. What an insult to her. What an f-ing lack of respect.

Muslimwoman, I have a question. What do you think of the Sunnah? I always thought the Sunnah was somewhat of a rip-off. I don't know Islamic history really, but the Sunnah always sounded fake to me. Shouldn't we (and these scholars) go back to the actual Qur'an to decide what should and should not be done? I mean there is absolutely no way of verifying if the hadiths are authentic or not. Wouldn't it be wiser to go back to the Qur'an that is, hopefully, not influenced and dirtied by political agendas and random barbaric customs and such? Same thing goes for the Sharia. I just don't get it. The guy at some point says something about the Sharia.

But the Sharia isn't even pure Islamic law! There is no such thing as Sharia in the Qur'an! WTF!

[seattlegal]

This is such a problem BB. The WHO and a German group have been working for years to try to stop this but are usually met with "we will not have european standards imposed upon us".

Oh, gee, what were they saying about how it was necessary because Egyptian women have oversized clitorises and this brings them into the norm? Unbelievable.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

One of the argument is that the Western woman is barren () because she is uncircumcised. And Muslim women bear more children because they're circumcised.

So it wouldn't have anything to do with contraception then?!

Originally Posted by KarimK

oh, and may I just say LOL to the last statement? I think it's the funniest thing I ever heard in my life. In the West, 100 % (no, really?!) of prostitutes are not circumcised.

Oh now be fair he did give proof of this, because only 90% of prostitues in Egypt have been circumcised. So that means that 10% of them have the sinful clitoris - case closed, absolute proof. Sound mathmatical logic there..... I think I need some asprin and a lie down. I note they didn't discuss the issue of why Egypt has prostitutes - perhaps they only service male european visitors, a sort of tourist attraction welcome gift????

Originally Posted by KarimK

Therefore we can deduce : the clitoris is the root of all evil in the world. It leads men to rape, lechery, adultery. Hence, the fact that women really are evil and we should remove that really sinful part of the body (that we still consider holy, by the way, but whatever) because it's the right thing to do.

I shall forgive you for this because you are young, so perhaps you haven't done the 'clitoris - root of all evil' course in school yet. I watched one on youtube from Africa and the woman midwife/doctor/clitoris remover person was explaining that if the clitoris is not removed it moves up the body and comes through the head (out of the ears, down the nose, etc). I have to say I hate it when I sit in an english cafe and the woman at the next table suddenly starts oozing clitoris from her head. Perhaps a little education required here then. It is just beyond belief what people in 2007 still believe.

Originally Posted by KarimK

Muslimwoman, I have a question. What do you think of the Sunnah?

Let us just say I do not rely on it. An example, I recently read hadiths that said the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said 'a carpet in your home is worth more than a barren woman'. It turns out they are not authentic, so my question is why are they still in the books? Can you imagine how many barren women, over the centuries, have suffered because of this hadith? Also, what an insult to our Beloved Prophet (pbuh), who himself had 8 wives that did not bear children, to attribute such foul lies to him. How many Muslim communities are there in the world, without access to scholars, that simply read and believe this? It is an insult to our Prophet, our women and our religion, so why is it still there?????

Bukhari created his books of hadith by finding every hadith he could and sifting through until he found those he believed authentic - may Allah bless him for his work, or heavens knows what oddities we would now have. He threw out hundreds of thousands. So why, when scholars now tell us there are so many unauthentic hadiths, even in Bukhari, does a group of scholars not write a new book of hadith which they deem authentic?

Don't get me wrong there are some wonderful, wonderful hadiths that are obviously from our Beloved Prophet (pbuh), may I share one that always jumps out at me:

Volume 8, Book 74, Number 253k:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: A man asked the Prophet, "What Islamic traits are the best?" The Prophet said, "Feed the people, and greet those whom you know and those whom you do not know."

This is my Islam, this is why I converted because amongst the manmade is the truly inspired. I try to live by the Quran alone, if Allah cannot give us the right path then who can - nobody. Google for islam+the closing of the gates, it is quite an eye opener.

I once read a brilliant article by a Muslim chap, it was entitled "I love Islam, I just hate Muslims". It sounds awful but he was simply saying that we are so wrapped up in "which foot to enter a house with" and "how to keep our women under control" that we have lost the principles of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), i.e., tolerence, care for our family (women included), charity, jihad (the stuggle with oneself), etc. I had to agree with him 100%.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Oh, gee, what were they saying about how it was necessary because Egyptian women have oversized clitorises and this brings them into the norm? Unbelievable.

It does beg the question - if 97% of women are circumcised then what do they use as a comparison for the norm? Nip to europe and have a peek - ah yes, an educational outing to the Soho strip clubs. It just beggers belief. Another video stated that "so many" girls call this scholar because they go on the metro in tight jeans and feel aroused when the metro jiggles about. So was the answer "wear loose clothes not tight jeans"? Nope, it was "go to have your clitoris removed."


I am now truely confused and dismayed about a new development. I spoke with my husband for 4 hours by webcam tonight and despite his admirable attempt to avoid this subject, I am like a terrier when I get hold of something. I want to say first that my husband is devoted to me and he is a good man, with a good heart - just a couple of cultural educational issues. So I would like to recount a short portion of our conversation:

Husband "but what can I do habeby, everybody here do it",

Me "tell me should a wife enjoy sex, not just the husband?"

Husband "of course, it is in the Quran and Sunnah. Wife and husband should enjoy equally."

Me "but when you cut the girl this way she can never enjoy sex all her life."

Husband "Don't be a crazy person habeby, it is the same as for man, just cut a small piece of skin."

At this point I sent him medical pictures of this operation. Despite his olive skin he went totally white.

Husband "this is propaganda by the west sah? I call my Mum" (sah means correct)

A couple of minutes later I watched my poor hubby crying with horror. He honestly had no idea and thought it was a slight nip, tuck. Apparently this, whilst approved of by the men, is a "womens thing", which men do not get involved in and clearly have no idea what is actually done. Now, that in no way excuses anything, if you are a father surely you want to know what is being done to your daughter but it blew my mind that they are so ignorant about it. That said, I have met plenty of western men that have no idea where the clitoris is, so a bit of ignorance there as well then.

It will be interesting to see what my husband says to his sister tomorrow, re her daughter.

[bananabrain]

gosh, well i wish you luck - i am sure you will convince your husband; he sounds like a good man.

b'shalom

bananabrain