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Old 03-12-2012, 11:11 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Fences Around the Torah

Fences Around the Torah

According to Christianity, not only an evil action is a sin but also the premeditation. Even if the action does not materialize, a sin has been committed with the thought. Not so according to Judaism, which predicates that the sin resides in the action only.

Now, why would Jesus, a learned Rabbi, teach that if a man thinks or looks at a woman to lust after her have already committed adultery in his heart, balderdash? Not really, but a fence around the Torah. It is only obvious, though, that if we avoid the thought, the action becomes remote. (Mat. 5:28)

If a punishment were in order, in this case, it should be applied rather on the woman who, somehow, exhibited herself in a fashion as to provoke a lustful thought on the man.

A fence around the Torah is akin to a fence around an apple tree, for instance, at the margin of the road. It makes the tree less alluring to be violated by passersby.

The method of fences around the Torah, and throughout the Tanach, as well as in terms of traditional midrashim, is meant to safeguard the Torah from major transgressions.

The bottom line is that no one should get frustrated for having thought this or that way, even the most absurd of thoughts. There is no evil done if the thought is not carried out into action. We have been granted with the attribute of free will to think whatever we please, as long as we are aware that we have also been granted with the attribute of intellect to judge between good and evil.

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Old 03-13-2012, 02:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

Philosophically and according to classic liberal political theory (Jefferson-Mills era) the Judaic point-of view is a winner.

Suppose we are in one of those Dish-TV commercials ("Don't let your grandson wear a dog-collar"). We are happily and securely in a long term relationship. Some (apparently single) co-workers invite us out to a watering-hole/meat-market (of the sort I remember so fondly in LA). Being of the Irish persuation we have a Poitin or three (it's not that the Irish have a drinking problem, it's that G!d gave us the best beer, Guiness, and best Whiskey, any Poitin... what did H! expect?) and, being a rogue (another Irish traint) we start dancing with and talking to a beauty of the opposite sex (or young Keanu Reeves ambi-pretty). After some rather sultry and suggestive moves and tieing a few cherry stems into love-knots with our tougne, we get invited to his/her house for a swim. Once there, we swim (like all good Southern Californians) in the raw. We take the towel to dry her/him off and notice a rather strong physical attraction (or vice versa).

When are we culpable of violating our long-term committment? Not when we are sexually flushing (another Irish phenomena). By then (remember a lot of Poitin has passed under the bridge). But was it when we accepted the invitation? Or somewhere else along the way? We do not stray from the path until the climax of this story (dirty mind, there), but just when did we make the decision?
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

oooh, tut tut - are you just going to *assume* a Torah source for the fence principle? by your own rules, you must show how this is "biblical", because most people generally have to base it on the first verse in pirqei 'aboth.

incidentally, this should be in "abrahamic" or "comparative" rather than in "christianity".

b'shalom

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Old 03-14-2012, 11:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Re: Fences Around the Torah

Quote:
Originally Posted by bananabrain View Post
oooh, tut tut - are you just going to *assume* a Torah source for the fence principle? by your own rules, you must show how this is "biblical", because most people generally have to base it on the first verse in pirqei 'aboth.

incidentally, this should be in "abrahamic" or "comparative" rather than in "christianity".

b'shalom

bananabrain

Our tradition is crowded with midrashim whose role is to serve as fences around the Torah. In fact, most of oral Torah is no different from being so.
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:25 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

Your sin remains because you do not believe in me.

"But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation:
sin, because they do not believe in me;
righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see me;
condemnation, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.
I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you."

With those words Jesus testified to me. I am son of man, the anointed. Follow my example as I have followed Jesus. We are One.

The Lord says this, it is written; "Open up the gates to let in a nation that is just, one that keeps faith."

"They are truly my people, children who are not unfaithful."

"Faithfulness has disappeared the word of God is gone from their speech".

"The Lord is the strength of His people ,the saving refuge of His anointed".

"Return, rebel Israel, says the LORD, I will not remain angry with you; For I am merciful, says the LORD, I will not continue my wrath forever.

Only know your guilt: how you rebelled against the LORD, your God, How you ran hither and yon to strangers and would not listen to my voice, says the LORD.

Return, rebellious children, says the LORD, for I am your Master; I will take you, one from a city, two from a clan, and bring you to Zion.

I will appoint over you shepherds after my own heart, who will shepherd you wisely and prudently.

When you multiply and become fruitful in the land, says the LORD, They will in those days no longer say, "The ark of the covenant of the LORD!" They will no longer think of it, or remember it, or miss it, or make another."

That's the word of the Lord who sent me. I am the resurrection and the life, anyone who believes in me even though he died he will come to life and anyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:53 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post
Our tradition is crowded with midrashim whose role is to serve as fences around the Torah. In fact, most of oral Torah is no different from being so.
that's not exactly an answer to where your "biblical" source ought to be from - so are you now saying this stuff doesn't have to be referenced? the "fence" principle is specifically based on this mishnah, but by your own logic, you can't rely on the mishnah, unless you accept the Torah sources that i have already laid out elsewhere, in which case it undermines your karaitic position that one has to find a Tanakh source. your comment about "midrashim" supports neither position.

b'shalom

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Old 03-15-2012, 10:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

Matt 5:28 English and Greek
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

5:28 Ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτῆς, ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὑτοῦ
The word translated as lust after, epithymeō, is also the same word translated as covet in Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


Τί οὖν ἐροῦμεν ὁ νόμος ἁμαρτία μὴ γένοιτο ἀλλὰ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔγνων εἰ μὴ διὰ νόμου τήν τε γὰρ ἐπιθυμίαν οὐκ ᾔδειν εἰ μὴ ὁ νόμος ἔλεγεν Οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις
Paul's argument is actually harmonious with what Ben Masada wrote in the opening post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post
The bottom line is that no one should get frustrated for having thought this or that way, even the most absurd of thoughts. There is no evil done if the thought is not carried out into action. We have been granted with the attribute of free will to think whatever we please, as long as we are aware that we have also been granted with the attribute of intellect to judge between good and evil.

I would say that Jesus was pointing out that we must be mindful of what is in our heart/mind, and work on changing what needs to be changed there. That way we can truly transform, and not just be whitewashed graves. (compare the following verses from Matt 5--work on removing what offends from yourself.) (Interestingly, this concept is similar to what Buddha taught.)
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

SG, precisely. One brings one's actions into line with the Divine and at the same time work on bringing our "self" (or heart or mind or conssciousness) into line with the Divine.

Almost all mystical beliefs incorporate this two-pronged approach (esp. Daoism, Buddhism, and Quakerism).
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

however, one should still point out that the "fence" principle is highly active in virtually all areas of halakhah; it is hard to imagine normative judaism without it. of course it appears to be this that BM objects to; anything he disagreed with is dismissed as either "midrashic" or "non-biblical"; this, of course, is the position adopted by both the karaites and, to some extent, the post-enlightenment reformers. unfortunately, as we see, one is forced nonetheless to continue to interpret due to the ambiguities in the biblical texts, as both karaites and reformers found, with the result that the "midrashic" and "non-biblical" interpretation both decided to ditch ended up merely being replaced with a new set of "midrashic" "non-biblical" interpretations which happened to suit the perspectives of each group. in other words, they aren't interested in the steering wheel and seats of the car, only in the "pure" engine which is the "important bit"; however, the car becomes undriveable without the steering wheel and the seats, so they just end up replacing one set of interfaces with another. give it a miss, is my opinion. there are plenty of ways to argue with interpretations you don't agree with which the tradition itself contains.

b'shalom

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Old 03-17-2012, 07:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Re: Fences Around the Torah

[QUOTE=Princely;265019]
Quote:
Your sin remains because you do not believe in me.
There is no sin in the lack of belief. To believe is like to think. As long as the thought is not materialized into evil actions, sin is non-existent.

Quote:
"But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation:
Obviously, Jesus either did not go or forgot his promise to send the Spirit because, the world continues unconvinced with regards to sin. BTW, evidences show that the world has become worse since then.

Quote:
With those words Jesus testified to me. I am son of man, the anointed. Follow my example as I have followed Jesus. We are One.
That must have been Paul. What evidence did he show to this claim? He never even saw Jesus. BTW, he even contradicted Jesus about the Law. While Jesus declared that he had not come to abolish it, Paul declared that he did abolish it on the cross. (Mat. 5:17; Ephe. 2:15)

Quote:
The Lord says this, it is written; "Open up the gates to let in a nation that is just, one that keeps faith."
The Psalmist was talking about the nation of Israel. Why don't you quote?

Quote:
They are truly my people, children who are not unfaithful.
Right, read Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord has come out to save His People; to save His anointed one."

Quote:
"Faithfulness has disappeared the word of God is gone from their speech".
Not realy! If some prove to be sons of belial, it does not mean that the whole People are without the Word of God.

Quote:
"The Lord is the strength of His people ,the saving refuge of His anointed".
Again, this is a reference to Israel, according to Habakkuk 3:13.

Quote:
"Return, rebel Israel, says the LORD, I will not remain angry with you; For I am merciful, says the LORD, I will not continue my wrath forever.
See what I mean? How could the Lord ignore the apple of His eye? (Deut. 32:10)

Quote:
Only know your guilt: how you rebelled against the LORD, your God, How you ran hither and yon to strangers and would not listen to my voice, says the LORD.
Not every one is within that cathegory. Although the message was meant to the whole community, the Lord showed to Elijah that, contrary to what Elijah thought, the Lord had reserved more than seven thousand who had never bent their knees to Baal.

Quote:
Return, rebellious children, says the LORD, for I am your Master; I will take you, one from a city, two from a clan, and bring you to Zion.
That's Israel back from exile. Since we are back, it means that the Lord is with us.

Quote:
I will appoint over you shepherds after my own heart, who will shepherd you wisely and prudently.

Every message of the Lord is conditional on the free will of man.

Quote:
When you multiply and become fruitful in the land, says the LORD, They will in those days no longer say, "The ark of the covenant of the LORD!" They will no longer think of it, or remember it, or miss it, or make another."
That's a reference to the New Covenant established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one People, one nation. No longer two. (Ezek. 37:22)

Quote:
That's the word of the Lord who sent me. I am the resurrection and the life, anyone who believes in me even though he died he will come to life and anyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
In that case, no one believes in Jesus because no one has returned from death. And with regards to "never die" is a false doctrine which contradicts the Scriptures in Genesis 3:22, which declares that man was banished from the Garden of Eden in order not to eat from the tree of life and live forever. It means that eternal life belongs with God only. An attribute which has been denied to man.

Ben
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Re: Fences Around the Torah

Quote:
Originally Posted by bananabrain View Post
that's not exactly an answer to where your "biblical" source ought to be from - so are you now saying this stuff doesn't have to be referenced? the "fence" principle is specifically based on this mishnah, but by your own logic, you can't rely on the mishnah, unless you accept the Torah sources that i have already laid out elsewhere, in which case it undermines your karaitic position that one has to find a Tanakh source. your comment about "midrashim" supports neither position.

b'shalom

bananabrain
IMHO, all midrashim support all my views. They are to be seen from the point of view that they must support the Biblical truth. Otherwise, it will be heresy. And as far as I am concerned, they do support the Scriptures. So, what are we arguing about?
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Re: Fences Around the Torah

[QUOTE=seattlegal;265023]Matt 5:28 English and Greek
Quote:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
No, he has not. There is no harm done as long as the lust remains in the mind and is not taken into action. Perhaps, man has harmed himself by exciting himself for nothing.
Quote:
The word translated as lust after, epithymeō, is also the same word translated as covet in Romans 7:7
Here, I agree with you. IMHO, Paul's lust was the thorn in his flesh he used to complain that he just could not get rid of.
Quote:
What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
As Paul found out in the Law that his lust was sinful, for him, the effect was the one of death caused by the Law. The point is that Paul was a Hellenist Jew who, like Greeks in general, lust for the same sex was as normal as for a woman. When he became conscious that homosexuality was against the Law, the repressed feeling became as a thorn in his flesh. (Rom. 7:13-25)
Quote:
Paul's argument is actually harmonious with what Ben Masada wrote in the opening post:
Are you sure about the term "harmonious"? IMO, "contradicting" could be more akin to my thread.
Quote:
I would say that Jesus was pointing out that we must be mindful of what is in our heart/mind, and work on changing what needs to be changed there.
Here yes, you could say that it is more harmonious with the open post. That's exactly what a fence around the commandment is meant: To be mindful of what is in our heart so that we can work on changing what needs to be changed, before it is too late for any change.

Ben
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

Quote:
Ben Masada; There is no sin in the lack of belief. To believe is like to think. As long as the thought is not materialized into evil actions, sin is non-existent.
Anyone who rejects me and does not accept my words , he already has his judge, namely the words I've spoken, that's what will condemn him on the last day.

Quote:
Ben Masada; Obviously, Jesus either did not go or forgot his promise to send the Spirit because, the world continues unconvinced with regards to sin. BTW, evidences show that the world has become worse since then.
I am the spirit of truth, follow my example.

Quote:
Ben Masada ; That must have been Paul. What evidence did he show to this claim? He never even saw Jesus. BTW, he even contradicted Jesus about the Law. While Jesus declared that he had not come to abolish it, Paul declared that he did abolish it on the cross. (Mat. 5:17; Ephe. 2:15)
That was not Paul, he is a deceiver. That was me. Follow me as I follow Jesus and all the prophets.

Quote:
Ben Masada; The Psalmist was talking about the nation of Israel. Why don't you quote?
I am Israel, the true servant of the Lord.

Quote:
Ben Masada; Right, read Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord has come out to save His People; to save His anointed one."
I have Read it.

Quote:
Ben Masada; Not realy! If some prove to be sons of belial, it does not mean that the whole People are without the Word of God.
If only you recognized Gods gift and who it is that's posting you, you would ask him and he would give you living water.

Quote:
Ben Masada; Again, this is a reference to Israel, according to Habakkuk 3:13.
Yes, the true and the faithful. The One who lives.

Quote:
Ben Masada; See what I mean? How could the Lord ignore the apple of His eye? (Deut. 32:10)
He doesn't. The Israel you know is not Israel.

Quote:
Ben Masada; Not every one is within that cathegory. Although the message was meant to the whole community, the Lord showed to Elijah that, contrary to what Elijah thought, the Lord had reserved more than seven thousand who had never bent their knees to Baal.
Do what is right and just. All those who do right shall rise to live.

Quote:
Ben Masada; That's Israel back from exile. Since we are back, it means that the Lord is with us.
Israel is not back until they follow me.


Ben Masada; Every message of the Lord is conditional on the free will of man.

Correct.

Quote:
Ben Masada; That's a reference to the New Covenant established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one People, one nation. No longer two. (Ezek. 37:22)
The new covenant is for all people who join themselves to the Lord.

Quote:
Ben Masada; In that case, no one believes in Jesus because no one has returned from death. And with regards to "never die" is a false doctrine which contradicts the Scriptures in Genesis 3:22, which declares that man was banished from the Garden of Eden in order not to eat from the tree of life and live forever. It means that eternal life belongs with God only. An attribute which has been denied to man.
You misunderstand scripture and the power of God. I am the resurrection and the life.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Re: Fences Around the Torah

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Originally Posted by Princely View Post

You misunderstand scripture and the power of God. I am the resurrection and the life.

Show me in your NT an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus and I'll be ready to change my views.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:28 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Fences Around the Torah

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Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post
Show me in your NT an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus and I'll be ready to change my views.
Ben
I am that witness, you can be too, if you follow His example as I have. It is a spiritual resurrection that each person can attain by spreading the truth, walking in the ways of the Lord and becoming His servant. Like I said ,I am the resurrection and the life, no one comes to the Lord except through me.Jesus and I are One with the Lord. People who do not serve the Lord are wicked and considered dead to the Lord. Once the wicked rise from the dead by serving the Lord and speaking His words they are righteous because their words are upright since the word of the Lord is upright. Hence the saying "The righteous will shine like the son in the kingdom of their heavenly Father". It's all about being righteous. Check out all the verses in the bible about the righteous and what is righteousness.Here are a few.

Psalm 11:7
For the Lord is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.

"God is with the company of the righteous."

Psalm 19:9
the fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever; the ordinances of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

Psalm 31:18
Let the lying lips be stilled that speak insolently against the righteous with pride and contempt.

Psalm 32:11
Be glad in the Lord and rejoice, O righteous, and shout for joy, all you upright in heart.

Psalm 33:1
Rejoice in the Lord, O you righteous. Praise befits the upright.

Psalm 34:15
The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their cry.

Psalm 34:17
When the righteous cry out, the Lord hears them, and rescues them from all distress.

The words of the Lord are upright and all His works are truthful, He Loves justice and right.

Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his faithful ones. The righteous shall be kept safe forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalm 37:29
The righteous shall inherit the land, and live in it forever.

Psalm 37:30
The mouths of the righteous speak wisdom, and their tongues speak justice.

"The righteous will go off to eternal life but the wicked to eternal damnation."

"To me every knee shall bend, by me every tongue shall swear, saying only in the Lord are righteous deeds and power."
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