For those believing in the Christian idea of heaven...

[epinoia]

Assume for the sake of argument that Bush, Ashcroft, Robertson, Falwell or (insert intensely disliked person of your choice who says s/he is a Christian) actually is one.

Assume you both pass God's smell test for heaven and that heaven is perfect and eternal.

How on earth or heaven do you stand being around these people for...a perfect eternity??

This does not sound like heaven. It sounds more like that other place. Thus, do we have a mislabeling problem and is the other place actually more preferable?

[JJM]

Originally Posted by epinoia

Assume for the sake of argument that Bush, Ashcroft, Robertson, Falwell or (insert intensely disliked person of your choice who says s/he is a Christian) actually is one.

Assume you both pass God's smell test for heaven and that heaven is perfect and eternal.

How on earth or heaven do you stand being around these people for...a perfect eternity??

This does not sound like heaven. It sounds more like that other place. Thus, do we have a mislabeling problem and is the other place actually more preferable?

There is no sin in heaven so if you hate these people for sins they are committing then you don't have a problem. But if you hate theses people for other reasons then you are in fact sinning. Thus in my opinion you have one of two options. Either get over these hatreds in purgatory so you can enter heaven or go to hell where you can hate them all you like.
__________________________________________________ _________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

[Pagan-prophet]

For once I agree with JJM. (Looking at it form a purely Christian prospective).

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


from what i understand of the Christian conception of heaven, feelings like hate, love etc are not present. of course, i'm also lead to believe that this is not the case when other Christians explain it to me so i guess it's hard to say really...

in any event.. i tend to think that these are not the type of things that one is going to be concerned with in Heaven... something to do with the worship in the presence of God or the like... i'm sure a more knowledgeable Christian can clarify my muddled thoughts

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Pagan-prophet

For once I agree with JJM. (Looking at it form a purely Christian prospective).

This had to make the news right. If anyone reading this finds this in a news paper even if it is from some town in Minnesota with like 200 people send me a copy.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste all,


from what i understand of the Christian conception of heaven, feelings like hate, love etc are not present. of course, i'm also lead to believe that this is not the case when other Christians explain it to me so i guess it's hard to say really...

in any event.. i tend to think that these are not the type of things that one is going to be concerned with in Heaven... something to do with the worship in the presence of God or the like... i'm sure a more knowledgeable Christian can clarify my muddled thoughts

There is love in heaven that is in a sense all there is but there is not hate you did get that right that there is no hate. You’re also right that no one would be concerned with such a thing. While I'm not sure exactly what happens in heaven I know thoughts of hate are not one of them. I've heard it described as eternal worship. I've also heard it described as one big party/banquet so it’s hard to say.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by JJM

There is no sin in heaven so if you hate these people for sins they are committing then you don't have a problem. But if you hate theses people for other reasons then you are in fact sinning. Thus in my opinion you have one of two options. Either get over these hatreds in purgatory so you can enter heaven or go to hell where you can hate them all you like.
__________________________________________________ _________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

I think that in the Old Testament there is a lot of hating from God on men. Correct me, don't we read often that this or that "I abominate or abhor or even curse..."?

Wasn't Cain hated by God, for being not a herdsman but a farmer? Because he offers to Jahweh the fruits of the earth, whereas Abel livestock.

Time for me to look up instances where God is full of abomination for certain people. At least once, He got so hateful he wanted to exterminate mankind with a deluge, and did so except for what six souls? And what about Sodom and Gomorrah.

Watch out, partners in same sex marriage.

Susma Rio Sep

PS I will report back after doing my search for God's abomination of some people, not just their sins.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

I think that in the Old Testament there is a lot of hating from God on men. Correct me, don't we read often that this or that "I abominate or abhor or even curse..."?

When you say Got is hating something I believe that he is always referring to sin. Since there is, no sin in heaven God would not hate anything there. When it says “curse” it means to bring bad fortune upon someone. This is part of Gods power because sometimes for the only way to bring good fortune to one person is to bring the opposite to others.

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Wasn't Cain hated by God, for being not a herdsman but a farmer? Because he offers to Jahweh the fruits of the earth, whereas Abel livestock.

Cain wasn’t hated by God. God enjoyed Abel’s sacrifice more. That does not mean he hated Cain’s. It wasn't who hated God for enjoying his brothers more. God has to like one better than the other. It is not his fault.

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Time for me to look up instances where God is full of abomination for certain people. At least once, He got so hateful he wanted to exterminate mankind with a deluge, and did so except for what six souls? And what about Sodom and Gomorrah.

Once again, he does not hate these people just their sins. Whenever he destroys a people, he would always give them ample time to repent. They just chose not to. Also when God destroys a city it is not truly out of wrath. I believe that there is a section in Isaiah maybe Jeremiah where it explains that when God destroys a people it is like a potter restarting a piece of pottery because something has gone wrong with it. I do not have access to my bible but I will find it and post it when I have the chance.

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Watch out, partners in same sex marriage.

Susma Rio Sep

PS I will report back after doing my search for God's abomination of some people, not just their sins.

Tell me what you find in your search if it proves me wrong

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by JJM

I believe that there is a section in Isaiah maybe Jeremiah where it explains that when God destroys a people it is like a potter restarting a piece of pottery because something has gone wrong with it. I do not have access to my bible but I will find it and post it when I have the chance.

God's first experiment with humans went wrong. Then he sent down a flood to destroy everyone again. To this day, we are tainted by sin. When will God's science experiment go write for a change, if he truly is all-powerful?

[JJM]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

God's first experiment with humans went wrong. Then he sent down a flood to destroy everyone again. To this day, we are tainted by sin. When will God's science experiment go write for a change, if he truly is all-powerful?

I wouldn't call it a science experiment gone wrong. It was a mistake on our part. As long as we have free choice then there can be evil. Now I would say that his first "experiment" with humans went wrong but not one with humans on earth. I think the Garden of Eden wasn't in Eden but rather Heaven. God put us there because we weren’t ready to have the knowledge from the tree and because we had free choice we in a sense "created" evil. God was doing something else with earth but because we sinned and sin isn't aloud in heaven God had to kick us out. Earth was just the place he decided to put us. After that it was not an “experiment”. God put us on earth told us what to do yet we continued not to do it. So for a long time God tried one approach. Every time they screw up Scare the crap out of them star over and hope they don't do it again. This wasn't working though. What will God do? Tell us everything about him, completely forgive us, and take the choice back to heaven. Enter Jesus and the rest is history. Yes God is all powerful and all perfect but Humans because we aren't God aren't yet God still gives us Free choice. Why? After all he can take it away anytime he wants. The reason he doesn't is because if he did we would all be mindless Drones. God doesn't want mindless drones He created us for another purpose so we continue to have free will. And as long as we do there will be some Evil in the world.

This is the section it is Jer 18:1-12:

The Potter's Vessel This word came to Jeremiah from the lord: "Rise up and be off to the potter’s house; there I will give you my message." I went down to the potter's house and there he was, working at the wheel. Whenever the object of clay which he was making turned out badly in his hand, he tried again, making of the clay another object of whatever sort he pleased. Then the word of the Lord came to me: "Can I not do to you, house of Israel, what this potter has done?" Says the Lord, "Indeed, like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, House of Israel. Sometimes I threaten to uproot and destroy a nation or a kingdom. But if that Nation which I have threatened turns away from its evil, I will also repent of the evil which I have threatened to do. Sometimes, again, I promise to build up and plant or a nation or a kingdom. If that nation does what is evil in my Eye's, refusing to obey my voice, I repent of the good with which I promised to bless it.
And now, tell this to the men of Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem: thus says the Lord: take care! I am Fashioning evil against you and making a plan. Return, each of you form your evil way; reform you ways and your deeds. But they will say, ' No use! We will follow our own devices; each one of us will behave according to the stubbornness of his evil heart'"

[syzygy]

I am a Christian of the Gnostic sort and I have zip respect for those old Bible notions of heaven as glorified Jewish Temples, throne rooms, choruses of singing angels, gold and crystal, all of it totally artificial. If one wants to get a better idea of heaven I go with the thousands of near-death-experiences that do not have a religious agenda to sell yet there's a heaven there or some place beyond the grave that thousands have seen now and come back to tell us. Much rather be with friends and family who have gone before than sitting with Jesus Christ or God or a bunch of angels, none of which are even even human beings..

[Mus Zibii]

Originally Posted by epinoia

Assume for the sake of argument that Bush, Ashcroft, Robertson, Falwell or (insert intensely disliked person of your choice who says s/he is a Christian) actually is one.

Assume you both pass God's smell test for heaven and that heaven is perfect and eternal.

How on earth or heaven do you stand being around these people for...a perfect eternity??

This does not sound like heaven. It sounds more like that other place. Thus, do we have a mislabeling problem and is the other place actually more preferable?

LOL Yeah, that's WHY I don't believe in Disney-style heaven. Actually, that's just part of the reason. I personally believe in a heaven equated with enlightenment. More of a proximity to God rather than a physical paradise. That's one reason I never had much affinity for Islam beyond enjoying its lyrical Qu'an. Too much emphasis on the physical.

[I, Brian]

Descriptions of Heaven in religious lit I usually take as metaphor - after all, humans as a species tend not to be very accepting of ambigious answers - people often need some form of answer, especially absolutes. Metaphor is one way to provide for that, being being illustrative, rather than precise.

A particular point about NDE's, though, is that the afterworld imagery is very often culturally formed. So a Christian should be expected to see Christian imagery in their own NDE, and a welcoming Jesus with saints is apparently not an uncommon figure among Catholics. I refer to the studies of D. Scott Rogo in "Return from Silence", which is a good general investigation into NDE's.

However, not all NDE's seem to contain cultural imagery - I had one of those myself. Ultimately, any NDE remains a very personal experience, and it is not easy to draw relative comparison's of the actual details of the experience, as much as stages of the experience (there are ten "classic" stages, some of which are usually present in any NDE), the feeling of the experience (usually an incommunicable degree of love and peace), and the affect of the experience (often life-changing - for example, I was one of many who turned veggie as a direct result of the experience).

I know Kurt - here as kkwohl - also had an NDE.

[Basstian]

Originally Posted by epinoia
Assume for the sake of argument that Bush, Ashcroft, Robertson, Falwell or (insert intensely disliked person of your choice who says s/he is a Christian) actually is one.

Assume you both pass God's smell test for heaven and that heaven is perfect and eternal.

How on earth or heaven do you stand being around these people for...a perfect eternity??

This does not sound like heaven. It sounds more like that other place. Thus, do we have a mislabeling problem and is the other place actually more preferable?

Assume Heaven is full of people still living in Sin ? Assume that the same things that annoy me now will be there to annoy me then ?
I am A Christian I have no real clue only small Biblical insight into what heaven will be but that I believe is just enough to give me hope and not really a clear view.
I do know this. I have an enemy here on earth he hurt my family in away that only heaven itself could heal. I pray for the will to forgive him when that will is strong I pray that he will one day find forgiviness. And I pray that someday this man who I never on this earth want to see again. I will be able to spend eternity with and that all the good that in this world I never saw I will see in him at that time.
I myself dont deserve "heaven" I however have faith I will see it. Knowing this I cant think of a single person Christian or not that Deserves to be there. On the other hand I cant think of a single person I dont want to see there.
as for the NDE a person finding comfort and a point in time that seems to be "heaven" than coming back to say what peace they felt is just in my view a very small taste of what the afterlife will be like.
Funny nobody ever says that they felt fire heard screaming etc etc etc

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Basstian

Assume Heaven is full of people still living in Sin ? Assume that the same things that annoy me now will be there to annoy me then ?
I am A Christian I have no real clue only small Biblical insight into what heaven will be but that I believe is just enough to give me hope and not really a clear view.
I do know this. I have an enemy here on earth he hurt my family in away that only heaven itself could heal. I pray for the will to forgive him when that will is strong I pray that he will one day find forgiviness. And I pray that someday this man who I never on this earth want to see again. I will be able to spend eternity with and that all the good that in this world I never saw I will see in him at that time.
I myself dont deserve "heaven" I however have faith I will see it. Knowing this I cant think of a single person Christian or not that Deserves to be there. On the other hand I cant think of a single person I dont want to see there.
as for the NDE a person finding comfort and a point in time that seems to be "heaven" than coming back to say what peace they felt is just in my view a very small taste of what the afterlife will be like.
Funny nobody ever says that they felt fire heard screaming etc etc etc

Well said, Basstian

[Bandit]

THIS IS WHAT HEAVEN MEANS TO ME



A COUNTRY WHERE NO TWILIGHT SHADOWS DEEPEN

UNENDING DAY WHERE NIGHT WILL NEVER BE

A CITY WHERE NO STORMS WILL EVER GATHER

OH THIS IS JUST WHAT HEAVEN MEANS TO ME


WHAT WILL IT BE WHEN WE GET OVER YONDER

AND JOIN THE THRONE UPON THE GLASSY SEA

WE’LL JOIN OUR LOVED ONES AND CROWN CHRIST FOREVER

OH THIS IS JUST WHAT HEAVEN MEANS TO ME



AND WHEN AT LAST WE SEE THE FACE OF JESUS

BEFORE HIS IMAGE OTHER LOVES ALL FLEE

AND WHEN THEY CROWN HIM LORD OF ALL I’LL BE THERE



O THIS IS JUST WHAT HEAVEN MEANS TO ME