Forgiveness

[17th Angel]

Something I would like to share.... From the story of the lost son which Jesus told...... (I will post the entire sotry for those who are not familiar with it and aqlso for thsoe who would just enjoy reading it and refreshing their memory.)

LUKE 15:12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living.

14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need.

15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs.

16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!

18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.

19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.'

20So he got up and went to his father. "But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate.

24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing.

26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on.

27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him.

29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.

30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

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I love how in 18 and 19 we read and see the son SEE's the errors of his way... And he looks for the best way he can redeem himself... He makes his plan and he prepares.

In 20 however we see a different situation to what the younger son had expected... to me I like how it shows love over comes the errors that others do unto us... They are gone in a heartbeat they do not bare weight and love just swarms it and destroys it..

Then in 21... He is true to his word and he says to his father he has been wrong and wishes for forgiveness and is prepared for punishment! And here is the key bit for me from my translations of the events... His son which was once dead... Is now alive, lost yet he is now found... Understanding you truly are in the wrong and needing of forgiveness and doing all in your power to correct it, is the way in which you shall be forgiven

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I don't really agree that we have to wait for a person to repent to forgive. When the prodigal son returned, his father ran out to greet him, welcoming him home before the son was even in earshot. I think the Lord greets us the same way.

LOL I just posted in refrence to the son! No I don't think we should wait for others to apologise before we forgive, sorry for any misunderstanding what I meant from that post was this person had wronged him, and showed no sign of regret for his actions... And to forgive him still shows true will of god.... Any clearer?

[sonoman]

This has come up on another board about forgiveness and Hell. I posted "If God cannot forgive why should I?" meaning if God is going to fry sinners in Hellfire eternally God's not forgiving sinners, why should I if I follow Jesus who followed His Father, God. Yet Jesus doesn't tell us to kill sinners. Just the opposite which He learned from His Father, God. I asked Father once about this and received a kind of warning that I shouldn't ask. It's not for us to know. All we have to know is that the Father has taught the Son to teach us to forgive, even our enemies.

When you follow the history of "sinners", say child molesters and murderers, you cannot help but come away with knowledge that these people are rarely born that way. A chain of tragic circumstance, severe neglect, severe abuse, etc. usually can be found in their upbringings that manifest in terrible behavior as teens and adults. God's looking at sin from the Big Picture and who knows what's up ahead in the healing department. I just watched a Stephen King story made into a movie, The Mist, real crapper with alien tentacles and everything but the end of the movie the hero, his child, and 3 other last survivors of the Aliens think they are doomed and decide to shoot themselves with the last four bullets of the only gun. The hero shoots them including his son and can't kill himself, no bullets and screams and then out of the Mist comes a big shadowy image which materializes into the rescuing Army armored carriers and helicopters defeating the Aliens.. so Steve's twisted moral is? Forgiveness of sins might save your own soul when you thought you did everything right.

[17th Angel]

If god judged us upon our sins alone.... Who could possibly stand....

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by sonoman

This has come up on another board about forgiveness and Hell. I posted "If God cannot forgive why should I?" meaning if God is going to fry sinners in Hellfire eternally God's not forgiving sinners, why should I if I follow Jesus who followed His Father, God. Yet Jesus doesn't tell us to kill sinners. Just the opposite which He learned from His Father, God. I asked Father once about this and received a kind of warning that I shouldn't ask. It's not for us to know. All we have to know is that the Father has taught the Son to teach us to forgive, even our enemies.

God forgives those who are repentant. I don't think anyone who has honestly sought God has been turned away from His mercy. While the Prodigal Son is a great story about repentance, and something that I can relate to greatly in my own life, there is also a flip side to it. Observe this parable in Matthew 18:

"Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." - Matthew 18:23-35

I shudder to think that I haven't been forgiving enough that when I face God, that I would end up like that unforgiving servant. God has given each of us a conscience to know when we have wronged someone or when we need to forgive those who wronged us, but if we do not take the time to things right, then we are going to have to face God with that on our conscience.

Hell is made for the unrepentant.

[sonoman]

Do you know that for a fact? Father has told us we are not to judge sinners because we all sin--where would you stop? Hell would be completely filled to overflowing if "repentance" were the standard because many of us don't even know what we do wrong. I mean you've got millions of Americans who unthinkingly vote for a president who uses American lives to further an agenda that has nothing at all to do with saving America from "terror". So you have millions of Americans who have no idea they're hands are bloody. Who judges that? We can't.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dondi

God forgives those who are repentant. I don't think anyone who has honestly sought God has been turned away from His mercy. While the Prodigal Son is a great story about repentance, and something that I can relate to greatly in my own life, there is also a flip side to it. Observe this parable in Matthew 18:

"Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." - Matthew 18:23-35

I shudder to think that I haven't been forgiving enough that when I face God, that I would end up like that unforgiving servant. God has given each of us a conscience to know when we have wronged someone or when we need to forgive those who wronged us, but if we do not take the time to things right, then we are going to have to face God with that on our conscience.

Hell is made for the unrepentant.

Hi Dondi,

Forgiveness is also for the forgiver...

And repentence benefits the one who repents.

Just a thought.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Amazing OP just what I was looking for... If I hadn't given you reputation for a previous post I would for certain give you it for this (Can't give you double reps til I've repped 15 others... I'll be back lol)

Not only did I wish to thank you for such a post I also wanted to "bump" this thread to see if there are any more new thoughts/ideas/angles out there that anyone wished to share?

One thing I would like to ask you mention pray to god for faith? Can you pray for faith?

If faith is a gift (and it is), and we are to ask God for what we need, and he says he will give us what we need (repeatedly), of course one can pray for faith.

I've have several friends who in a fit of frustration and anger said to God "If you are real, then give me faith I need to know"...or "show me you exist so that I will know beyond doubt".

and he did.

[sonoman]

Happened to me that way. I was a Christian for 28 years but in all that time I never once had a personal experience of Jesus. Not once. God, oh yes, God for sure, lot's of astonishing revelations sent into my mind by this Something that told me all about Jesus and why He was sent into the world but no Jesus. God even sent a guiding angel my way but no Jesus. Coupled with a Christian theology that wasn't anywhere near orthodox to begin with it was difficult to claim myself a "Christian" yet I knew I was even without experiencing Jesus personally in my life. Ah, but then, last year towards the end about a month before facing prostate cancer surgery, the illness that I had been dealing with all through 2007, I decided to put the obvious question to the test: I asked God, "Are You Jesus?"

Yes.

Asked It seven times, seven received God's answer "Yes" seven times. It was the first time ever for me that God had spoken to me personally. Never got any direct God talk before--just ideas and concepts planted in my mind, sometimes a slogan but never real conversation. Now, that's what I have and I tell you the truth I have backed way off asking God about things because He answers! and He's already turned 28 years of my beliefs inside out.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Happened to me that way. I was a Christian for 28 years but in all that time I never once had a personal experience of Jesus. Not once. God, oh yes, God for sure, lot's of astonishing revelations sent into my mind by this Something that told me all about Jesus and why He was sent into the world but no Jesus. God even sent a guiding angel my way but no Jesus. Coupled with a Christian theology that wasn't anywhere near orthodox to begin with it was difficult to claim myself a "Christian" yet I knew I was even without experiencing Jesus personally in my life. Ah, but then, last year towards the end about a month before facing prostate cancer surgery, the illness that I had been dealing with all through 2007, I decided to put the obvious question to the test: I asked God, "Are You Jesus?"

Yes.

Asked It seven times, seven received God's answer "Yes" seven times. It was the first time ever for me that God had spoken to me personally. Never got any direct God talk before--just ideas and concepts planted in my mind, sometimes a slogan but never real conversation. Now, that's what I have and I tell you the truth I have backed way off asking God about things because He answers! and He's already turned 28 years of my beliefs inside out.:;

Interesting story sonoman. Yeah, we pray for the Holy Spirit to help and then when she shows up it's like, Whoa! I wasn't ready for that!

PS Hope your health is better now.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Do you know that for a fact? Father has told us we are not to judge sinners because we all sin--where would you stop? Hell would be completely filled to overflowing if "repentance" were the standard because many of us don't even know what we do wrong. I mean you've got millions of Americans who unthinkingly vote for a president who uses American lives to further an agenda that has nothing at all to do with saving America from "terror". So you have millions of Americans who have no idea they're hands are bloody. Who judges that? We can't.

I'm not here to judge anybody. Not my job. The point to the parable is to be sure that the mercy you received is made manifest to those whom you may give mercy to. The ultimate judge is God. This parable serves as a warning that one day we will have to face God and give account of our lives. How did we treat people? Did we treat them with the same accord that God treated us?

It is a matter of conscience. I do not think God judges us for our ignorance. (But that why we need to gain the knowledge of God in the first place. That is why the Word was established to aid in our conscience the will of God). If we don't know a thing is wrong, then how can God judge us, but when He makes something clear in our minds what is right and what is wrong, He expects us to act accordingly. To much is given, much will be required.

But I like how your slipped you little political agenda into this conversation. You've catagorically made every single person who voted for that certain candidate look like an idiot and unlearned. I'd really appreciate that you wouldn't do that here, please. There are other forums for discussing such.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Dondi,

Forgiveness is also for the forgiver...

And repentence benefits the one who repents.

Just a thought.

Good points, luna. Unforgiveness will breed bitterness and contempt. Repentance isn't a dirty word. It a matter of change, of growth. Turning from our own selfish tendencies to something better. Of learning to be unselfish in selfish world. Reaching out to bring hope to others. If we are not willing to do that, then how are we going to be fit for heaven?

[Faithfulservant]

We can ask for it

luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”

We can learn it

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We get some just for the heck of it.. how much is Gods choice.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

To some its their spiritual gift.

1 Corinthian 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

[wil]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

...Forgiveness is also for the forgiver....

Just a thought.

Spot on. Sure isn't for anyone else!

Folks say things like. I'm not forgiving them, they haven't asked, or they don't deserve it.

Well it matters not how slight or how big the perceived infraction, if we don't forgive we enlarge it.

We think about the person, we think about what they 'owe' us, how 'they' affected us...a whole soap opera starts in playing out in our mind...all because we haven't forgiven.

We see the person, our blood may boil, we talk tersely, we can't think while we are trying to have a conversation with someone else...all because we haven't forgiven.

Forgiveness is surely for our peace of mind, so we no longer take up time, energy and space considering whatever it is...

And funny thing is, if we allow enough time to go buy without forgiving...we forget the issue all together...we just know we are still mad at them...who does that affect??

The one that gets me most often is hearing someone say, "I'm not calling them (or writing them, or sending a Birthday card, or Christmas card or...) because I did it it last time and they never responded."

Forgive, to give, it is a gift we give ourselves.

[17th Angel]

Doesn't it seem like a bit of a slap in the face though? In my thoughts it feels like I am talking to someone yet ignoring them at the very same time... Dunno, I just feel awarkward praying for faith.... *shrugs*