Foundation??

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dor

Chrisit is the foundation in all ways...

He is

head of the church.
high priest.
the mediator.
the prophet.
the King.
the Savior.
the Creator of all things.
also God.

But with all that said it wouldnt mean much if we didnt know what he did for us and have a personal relationship with him.

hey Dor, how about this from Ephesians?

1. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

[Saltmeister]

We all have different ways of looking at it, but here's how I see it at the moment. It may change in the near future, but this is how I see it now. Here is where my thoughts have led me:

The whole notion of Christ is a twist of a weird, mystical narrative where Jesus was both "God" and "not God" at the same time. He was "God" in the sense that he functioned as "God on earth." -- Colossians 1:15 and 2:9. He had God's holy character and personality. Because he "behaved like God" he was the "Man of Justice" -- the Son of Man. He challenged the religious leaders of the day, who taught people to follow dogma, ideology, a systematic and structural framework on which people were to approach life.

He was a holy man who lived by instinct and didn't need to follow rules. He was not a rule-follower or a man driven by ideology, but a man driven by intuition. He discerned the good and evil, the safe and unsafe (in spiritual terms), the light and darkness and the healthy and unhealthy (in spiritual terms again). The religious leaders who condemned him, did so on the grounds of ideology. Jesus condemned these religious leaders because of their devotion to ideology. Because ideology does not always reflect the true attitudes and intentions of human beings, and because Jesus was a good and innocent man, Jesus' remarks were justified whereas those of the religious leaders were not.

This is where the idea of Jesus being and not being "God" splits into a forked road.

Road 1 - In the sense that Jesus was God:
Jesus was not just a prophet or messenger. He was the Man of Justice, Son of Man, image and projection of God on earth. When he challenged the religious leaders, he did so as the Son of Man, "God on earth." In that sense, the religious leaders were challenging God Himself, since Jesus didn't just speak on God's authority; he spoke "as God." He spoke "as God" because he had God's own personality and character. Because the religious leaders claimed to act on God's behalf, this nullified their claim to be "men of God" because they condemned a man with God's own personality and character. They opposed God Himself. They had blasphemed against God by condemning His incarnate to death.

Jesus was therefore a symbolic means by which God said to the religious leaders: "You don't really speak for me."

Road 2 - In the sense that Jesus was not God:
Jesus was a man of instinct and intuition, not a man of ideology.

Jesus was a righteous man even though he didn't follow rules or ideology. The religious leaders condemned him, even though he was a pure, sinless man. Because they condemned an innocent man, the moral authority of the religious leaders and their ideology was nullified. The God they claimed to represent, the God of Justice, could not allow a righteous man, especially the Man of Justice, Son of Man, to be condemned and punished like that.

So the God of Justice ordered a new decree, a new Covenant: because He accepted Jesus, the Man of Justice, the man who died in defiance of the phoniness and manipulative nature of ideology, He would also accept those who accepted Christ. This is why those who believe in him are accepted by God -- because God accepted Jesus first. Basically, God accepts us because God accepted the Son of Man. We all seem think that Jesus was so good that God automatically accepted him. Not so. God accepted Jesus because despite the condemnation from the religious leaders, Jesus refused to kow-tow to ideology because it was oppressive. His death was brutal, unjust, evil, diabolical and downright immoral. It was a bloody and unjustified death.

Jesus died for such an honourable cause that God not only accepted him, but honoured him for his courage and bravery by decreeing that anybody who accepted him and honoured him too would be accepted by God as well. Opponents of Christianity often say that because Jesus rose again, the crucifixion wasn't "real." They say it means it was really a "cruci-fiction" -- a hoax. That simply misses the point!!! Sure, Jesus escaped, but not because he was immortal. It was because Jesus couldn't be condemned. His death nullified the moral authority of ideology. Ideology couldn't be justified.

Therefore, Jesus' physical and temporary "crucifixion" led to the permanent and eternal crucifixion of rules, dogma and ideology.

Where the Two Roads Merge Back Together:
Because of what Jesus did, we're accepted even if we don't follow certain rules or conform to some ideology.

Christ's purpose in coming into this world was purely sentimental. It was to establish a connection with God based on trust. He makes it possible for us to trust God because God sent Jesus to nullify the moral authority of ideology. It was like God being "diplomatic" and sending signals to us on how we were to get close to Him.

So why did Jesus need to be "God"? I think it's because that's how God could get the final word on the issue of ideology and its authority.

Some say "Jesus was God," others say "Jesus was not God." I think these two views are really incomplete views of the story of Christ. Christ had the dual nature of being "God" and "not God" at the same time. In a sense, his act was purely sentimental and symbolic. He was "God" in a symbolic sense. His legacy lives on. We are liberated from rules/ideology, and we are accepted by God because we accept what he did. Also, discovering a God that we can trust means that we are "saved." That's what I think it really means to be "saved" -- we discover a God we can trust. It is not a God who manipulates people through rules and ideology, but a God that is personal, intimate and sentimental.

That's my view on the foundation, I suppose.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

My foundation since I was a child besides Christ of course.. was myself as a child developing a relationship with my Father in heaven.. at the age of 3 and 4 I can still remember the feeling of security as I imagined crawling into my "Daddys" HUGE lap and saying my prayers.. That gift was from my mother when I asked her what God looked like..

And also like Path of One.. my relationship with Jesus.. my teacher.. my friend.. my savior.. the knowledge of what love mercy and compassion.. forgiveness are

I didnt develop the bible as part of my foundation until I was older and needed the wisdom and knowledge from it to deal with my life problems. I needed that voice from God to direct me. The Spirit has shown me so much truth in the Word that perhaps its not the bible thats my foundation as much as the Spirit of Truth that revealed what the bible told me.. And the Spirit has been with me my whole life it seems.

I loved this very personal post, FS. And I found it so interesting and like my own feelings toward God and Jesus. In fact, I often have the visual of Jesus holding me in His lap when I need comfort and help, as a father holds their child. Or Jesus gently laying a hand on the top of my head when I kneel before Him in prayer. Yes, my friend, my Savior, my teacher, indeed.

I began with the Bible early on, but always felt that, as you put it, the Spirit was the foundation of Biblical truth. I believe the Bible is a sort of conversation between myself and God, and the Spirit is the medium that makes sense of the message for me, inspires me, moves me... seek, and you shall find. I feel it is the Spirit that helps me find, that guides me.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I began with the Bible early on, but always felt that, as you put it, the Spirit was the foundation of Biblical truth. I believe the Bible is a sort of conversation between myself and God, and the Spirit is the medium that makes sense of the message for me, inspires me, moves me... seek, and you shall find. I feel it is the Spirit that helps me find, that guides me.

I couldnt have said the whole thing better myself ... its exactly how I look at it.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

I suppose if I begin with the foundation of Jesus' teachings, then I pitch a tent on top, instead of building some monumental edifice.

I guess that is why I feel so connected to the words in Ecclesiastes; "Fear G-d, and keep His commandments." To paraphrase Hillel, "all the rest is commentary..."

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dor

yes I tried to stay away from the Creed when I made the post purposely trying not to ruffle any feathers.

This is the part that confuses me here. Someone starts a thread simply asking for each others views and beliefs on the foundation...not asking us to dissect each others views or beliefs but an informational cards on the table approach. I like that.

In this realm of thought how does one ruffle feathers? Isn't getting feathers ruffled a personal choice?

I may say I believe that only those that accept the blood and resurrection of Jesus as washing away their sins will survive.

You may say that thru an understanding of the principles that Jesus spoke will allow you to do good works and have a seat in the kingdom.

Someone else may say only 150k are gonna get in.

And someone else that while they are christian there are many paths to G-d and this whole saviour and saving thing is a personal experience.

Will some of us disagree, sure, but that is not what is being asked for here, anyone disagreeing with anyone else...the question appears...what is your foundation...not I want to knock your foundation out from under you...

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by wil

This is the part that confuses me here. Someone starts a thread simply asking for each others views and beliefs on the foundation...not asking us to dissect each others views or beliefs but an informational cards on the table approach. I like that.

In this realm of thought how does one ruffle feathers? Isn't getting feathers ruffled a personal choice?

I may say I believe that only those that accept the blood and resurrection of Jesus as washing away their sins will survive.

You may say that thru an understanding of the principles that Jesus spoke will allow you to do good works and have a seat in the kingdom.

Someone else may say only 150k are gonna get in.

And someone else that while they are christian there are many paths to G-d and this whole saviour and saving thing is a personal experience.

Will some of us disagree, sure, but that is not what is being asked for here, anyone disagreeing with anyone else...the question appears...what is your foundation...not I want to knock your foundation out from under you...

Foundation of Christianity?

I think there's a simple recipe that everyone could, possibly, agree with: Trust.

If you can reason very well that you have found a God you can trust, then ultimately you have found God himself. This is a God you can know personally, not a God defined by some arcane or mystical science or philosophy. In other words, to be saved, you must find a God you can ultimately trust. It's something personal, intimate and sentimental. If you can't trust Him, you're not really saved. Therefore, we all have to seek, with all our hearts, all our strength, all our mind and soul for a God that can be trusted. In other words, "all paths lead to God" may not always apply. What paths can you trust? What paths lead us to a God we can trust? That would apply regardless of whether it's New Age, Wicca, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.

We may all differ in our beliefs, even on the common ground of Christianity, but I suppose what saves anyone is Trust. In other words, it's not our specific beliefs, but whether we can reason with these beliefs that the God we have discovered and experienced is a God we can ultimately trust.

I believe trust is the key. Why? It's because trust leads to faith. It's also because what you can ultimately trust is also ultimately the Truth itself and what ultimately leads us to God. Because faith is based on trust, and because faith is a prevalent theme in Christianity, it must mean that trust is part of the foundation of Christianity.

I suppose then that it's not enough for us to consider ourselves "Christian" because we still need to establish why the God depicted in Christianity is a God we can trust.

At least from my point of view, Christianity's God is a God I can trust. He sent Christ to liberate us from ideology. Jesus' coming was a way in which God told us that He was not a God that manipulated people through a system of rules, a mystical science or philosophy, but was simply a God with which we could become intimate and personal.

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow or deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Colossians 2:8

Christ is the foundation, and the notion of Christ revolves around a God we can trust. Therefore, I could perhaps say that trust is a part of this foundation. What saves us is trust.

That's perhaps one way of looking at it.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Foundation of Christianity?

I think there's a simple recipe that everyone could, possibly, agree with: Trust.

If you can reason very well that you have found a God you can trust, then ultimately you have found God himself. This is a God you can know personally, not a God defined by some arcane or mystical science or philosophy. In other words, to be saved, you must find a God you can ultimately trust. It's something personal, intimate and sentimental. If you can't trust Him, you're not really saved. Therefore, we all have to seek, with all our hearts, all our strength, all our mind and soul for a God that can be trusted. In other words, "all paths lead to God" may not always apply. What paths can you trust? What paths lead us to a God we can trust? That would apply regardless of whether it's New Age, Wicca, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.

I would have to totally agree with you based upon my experiences. If there is not trust, there cannot be positive belief in the long run. Love is not possible without trust, and G-d is love.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Foundation of Christianity?

I think there's a simple recipe that everyone could, possibly, agree with: Trust.

If you can reason very well that you have found a God you can trust, then ultimately you have found God himself. This is a God you can know personally, not a God defined by some arcane or mystical science or philosophy. In other words, to be saved, you must find a God you can ultimately trust. It's something personal, intimate and sentimental. If you can't trust Him, you're not really saved. Therefore, we all have to seek, with all our hearts, all our strength, all our mind and soul for a God that can be trusted. In other words, "all paths lead to God" may not always apply. What paths can you trust? What paths lead us to a God we can trust? That would apply regardless of whether it's New Age, Wicca, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.

We may all differ in our beliefs, even on the common ground of Christianity, but I suppose what saves anyone is Trust. In other words, it's not our specific beliefs, but whether we can reason with these beliefs that the God we have discovered and experienced is a God we can ultimately trust.

I believe trust is the key. Why? It's because trust leads to faith. It's also because what you can ultimately trust is also ultimately the Truth itself and what ultimately leads us to God. Because faith is based on trust, and because faith is a prevalent theme in Christianity, it must mean that trust is part of the foundation of Christianity.

I suppose then that it's not enough for us to consider ourselves "Christian" because we still need to establish why the God depicted in Christianity is a God we can trust.

At least from my point of view, Christianity's God is a God I can trust. He sent Christ to liberate us from ideology. Jesus' coming was a way in which God told us that He was not a God that manipulated people through a system of rules, a mystical science or philosophy, but was simply a God with which we could become intimate and personal.



Christ is the foundation, and the notion of Christ revolves around a God we can trust. Therefore, I could perhaps say that trust is a part of this foundation. What saves us is trust.

That's perhaps one way of looking at it.

Interesting point. The kind of trust you are referring to is an ultimate one. Regardless of what is happening, or what is about to happen, there is (supposedly) a trust that all will work out for the best in the end (not specifically our best end as we think/hope it should be).

So, when we say "Jesus take the wheel/helm", we mean for keeps, not until we think we know a better course to steer. That kind of trust.

Forgive my sea "state", but I understand it best this way. When we invite the Captain to come aboard our ship and assume command, that means exactly that...no second guessing the Commanding Officer. That is why a new Commanding Officer is "invited" aboard by the crew. It is with confidence and a kind of "sea sense" (trust), that the new CO will do what is best for ship and crew. So the crew presents "side boys" and dress whites, to the new perspective "Skipper", an invite to come aboard and command their lives and fate.

I think I understand what you mean.

v/r

Q