free will is dangerous

shadowman · 04-20-2007, 07:17 PM

would you let your kid have free will to cross a road with heavy traffic?

no you probably wouldnt let them take part in a situation with such serious consequences

so why does god give us free will to potentially let us damn ourselves to hell.

we dont have much going for ourselves, we are worthy of hell, we make dumb mistakes all the time, we are clueless about darn near everything.

it seems irresponsible on gods part to let us fart around in this crazy world where terrible stuff happens to or because of our mistakes, and then he gives us little clues, but nothing that really proves hes there.

he appears to us pretending to be aman, supposedly.

and again in hallucinations, in thoughts, in random life events that we can possibly take as being "maybe a sign from god, but maybe not"

none of his proofs are REALLY valid evidence.

his spirit "breathes on us" sometimes

and many people with the spirit breathing on them have way diffwerent opinions. they might even not be in the same religion!

so he gives us free will to play around in this perilous world wi9th ultimate consequences of hell.

If I was god and I cared about humans, I wouldnt do that.

I would eliminate hell, I would make humans who couldnt get lost in their own mistakes and failures.

I would SHOW UP! God right now could keep every single person out of hell on the whole earth ever, if he just sahowed up in a real, tangible way.

not by influencing peoples thoughts according to their own perception, not by spirit breathing on them or tickling their heart, not by trying to get us to believe that a man was really him

no Im saying if god is god and he cares and doesnt want us in hell, then he could freaking touch down in the sahara 3000 feet tall with love beams radiating out into every human and he could say HI IM GOD I LOVE YOU AND THIS IS WHAT I WANT YOU GUYS TO FIX AND DO

---------------------------------------

and another thing!

GOOD lets people tarnish his good name left and right. Just think about all the horiible things that have been done in his name

manifest destiny, african and native slavery, genocide, inquisition, witch burning, holy war in ireland, in africa, in east europe

dont you think god might want to come down and say. hey guys THESE ACTS ARE NOT DONE IN MY NAME, KEEP MY NAME OUT OF YOUR MOUTH WITH THESE ACTS

for example he could right now say I DO NOT ENDORSE what bush is doing killing hundreds a day and leading men to their deaths.

but no he allows his name to be used to justify some of the worst crap ever!

what gives

and again, how is it respoonsible on gods part that we haVE THE FREE WILL TO DAMN OURSELVES ETERNALLY... thats an example of him putting us into a catastrophically perilous situation. and, obviously, we arent all choosing him, so tons of us are going to hell

you would hopew he could do sometihng about that, but it doesnt seem like he wants to. he seems ok with it.

how can this god be trusted?

wil · 04-20-2007, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

If I was god and I cared about humans, I wouldnt do that.

I would eliminate hell, I would make humans who couldnt get lost in their own mistakes and failures.

I would SHOW UP! God right now could keep every single person out of hell on the whole earth ever, if he just sahowed up in a real, tangible way....

he could freaking touch down in the sahara 3000 feet tall with love beams radiating out into every human and he could say HI IM GOD I LOVE YOU AND THIS IS WHAT I WANT YOU GUYS TO FIX AND DO

and again, how is it respoonsible on gods part that we haVE THE FREE WILL TO DAMN OURSELVES ETERNALLY... thats an example of him putting us into a catastrophically perilous situation. and, obviously, we arent all choosing him, so tons of us are going to hell

you would hopew he could do sometihng about that, but it doesnt seem like he wants to. he seems ok with it.

how can this god be trusted?

Namaste Shadowman...

Do you think hell is G-d creation or maybe mans?

But you as a man wouldn't create hell...wonder why others did?

You as a man wouldn't create free will...wonder why G-d or others did?

Could this earth be a proving ground, a classroom of sorts?

You think G-d wouldn't damn or kill people in wars or disasters...that wouldn't be loving...so who does...or does anyone?

In the bible G-d killed people, G-d damned people..do you believe that? Or is that man blaming G-d for man's actions or things man doesn't understand?

shadowman · 04-21-2007, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Shadowman...

Do you think hell is G-d creation or maybe mans?

---------------------------------------

I dont know. If god is the alpha, then it is all from him one way or another, and what we think about anything is an illusion.

I have entertained the thought that all religions describe parts of human consciousness and human experience, in that respect I wonder if both heaven and hell is created in the minds of man. we could have a kingdom of heaven on earth if we played our cards right.

I dont think anyone would create a hell. But then again, what is a hell? Is it a place of punishment for punishment sake without correction, just to inflict eternal pain?

Is it a place in moral depravity? and how do you define those morals? some people think that if we dont beleive or "have faith in something, that makes us evil or wicked. others think evil is from doing mean spirited things to other humans.

I dont kkow if I understand how belief or disbelief in the creator is evil. ITs complicated to think about. If god wants to know us so much, which I can understand, If I was god I would create things that I wanted to know. If he wants to know us so much, why is it all about these weird round about mind games, faith, belief... faith and belief is just holding ideas in one head. I can say, thank you jesus for saving me, for like 2 hgours, and read the bible and feel like I talked to god, then Im ok with god? then a few hours later Im playing soccer, not thinking about god... still ok?

the n I talk with a hindu and think its all in the mind, then Im not with god? I always question, I always see things to reason and say "what if about" as long as I do that, I cant always have faith.... and its also hard to believe that faith is all god cares about. Then why did he give us all these morals?
-----------------------------------------------------------

But you as a man wouldn't create hell...wonder why others did?

-------------------------------------------------------------

no idea, also depends on what it is, but either way if I had the power it doesnt sound like sometihng I would let exist...

------------------------------------------------------

You as a man wouldn't create free will...wonder why G-d or others did?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

dont know, its a funny concept.
----------------------------------------------------------
Could this earth be a proving ground, a classroom of sorts?
------------------------------------------------------

it definitely could, but the idea that the only lesson is faith or belief seems weird for some reason.

------------------------------------------------------
You think G-d wouldn't damn or kill people in wars or disasters...that wouldn't be loving...so who does...or does anyone?

-------------------------------------------------------------

how do you define loving. if we are to live eternally "damned or not" then being killed is a completely "worldly or secular" idea. I would assume god kills people though. because of the whole choose him before its too late. If I die tonight but my twin dies in threee weeks and I never accepted jesus but my twin does in three days, it must be god that kills us.

if its not, its even more so a mattwer of chance that some of us make the right choice

god must have someway of deciding "hes not gonna pick me, time for hell"

dont know if he sees the future or just randomly picks who he wants in heaven or not. maybe EVERYONE in hell is a devil child or tare, and EVERYONE is in heaven is a child of jesus. that must make sense. "my flock knows me" etc.... if someone ends up in hell that WAS one of "gods children" it seems really weird.

of course when talking about this we realize that god really has a chosen people so all the h indus and africans and natives that resisted missions must all really be devil children!

someone told me religion was about justifying control over other people, slavery etc. it makes you think. all the people the christian world beat down or murdered must have had it comming from god.

------------------------------------------------------------------
In the bible G-d killed people, G-d damned people..do you believe that? Or is that man blaming G-d for man's actions or things man doesn't understand?

----------------------------------------

I think there is no way to know the answer to that. One of my premises is that its shackey that god lets us have the power to damn ourselves. If I was creating things I wouldnt put them into an envirement with those kinds of consequences and I have trouble seeing why god thinks it is ok.

Quahom1 · 04-21-2007, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

would you let your kid have free will to cross a road with heavy traffic?

no you probably wouldnt let them take part in a situation with such serious consequences

so why does god give us free will to potentially let us damn ourselves to hell.

we dont have much going for ourselves, we are worthy of hell, we make dumb mistakes all the time, we are clueless about darn near everything.

it seems irresponsible on gods part to let us fart around in this crazy world where terrible stuff happens to or because of our mistakes, and then he gives us little clues, but nothing that really proves hes there.

he appears to us pretending to be aman, supposedly.

and again in hallucinations, in thoughts, in random life events that we can possibly take as being "maybe a sign from god, but maybe not"

none of his proofs are REALLY valid evidence.

his spirit "breathes on us" sometimes

and many people with the spirit breathing on them have way diffwerent opinions. they might even not be in the same religion!

so he gives us free will to play around in this perilous world wi9th ultimate consequences of hell.

If I was god and I cared about humans, I wouldnt do that.

I would eliminate hell, I would make humans who couldnt get lost in their own mistakes and failures.

I would SHOW UP! God right now could keep every single person out of hell on the whole earth ever, if he just sahowed up in a real, tangible way.

not by influencing peoples thoughts according to their own perception, not by spirit breathing on them or tickling their heart, not by trying to get us to believe that a man was really him

no Im saying if god is god and he cares and doesnt want us in hell, then he could freaking touch down in the sahara 3000 feet tall with love beams radiating out into every human and he could say HI IM GOD I LOVE YOU AND THIS IS WHAT I WANT YOU GUYS TO FIX AND DO

---------------------------------------

and another thing!

GOOD lets people tarnish his good name left and right. Just think about all the horiible things that have been done in his name

manifest destiny, african and native slavery, genocide, inquisition, witch burning, holy war in ireland, in africa, in east europe

dont you think god might want to come down and say. hey guys THESE ACTS ARE NOT DONE IN MY NAME, KEEP MY NAME OUT OF YOUR MOUTH WITH THESE ACTS

for example he could right now say I DO NOT ENDORSE what bush is doing killing hundreds a day and leading men to their deaths.

but no he allows his name to be used to justify some of the worst crap ever!

what gives

and again, how is it respoonsible on gods part that we haVE THE FREE WILL TO DAMN OURSELVES ETERNALLY... thats an example of him putting us into a catastrophically perilous situation. and, obviously, we arent all choosing him, so tons of us are going to hell

you would hopew he could do sometihng about that, but it doesnt seem like he wants to. he seems ok with it.

how can this god be trusted?

Because the extreme of "free will" is Rebellion. That is Free will that is out of balance, and based on selfish thinking.

shadowman · 04-21-2007, 12:37 AM

so why does he let us lead ourselves to a terribly wrong path that leads to our damnation? what do you think of the other things I wrote?

Quahom1 · 04-21-2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

so why does he let us lead ourselves to a terribly wrong path that leads to our damnation? what do you think of the other things I wrote?

Let me put it in terms I understand.

I have two sons. I raise them with the best of intentions for them. I educated them, love them, discipline them, teach them, give them the best send off I can (all the while having plans for their great futures).

One goes off on his own and took what he learned to heart, and fulfills himself (and my hopes for him).

The other goes off on his own and totally disregards what he was taught, and ends up in the gutter.

Is that my fault? Better yet, can I go and grab the screw up and make him tow the line? No. He's made his choices, and he's a man now. I can only grieve for his losses.

As far as the rest of what you wrote, it all seems to point to one thing, and that is why does God allow us to do what we do? I've done my best to answer your question.

shadowman · 04-21-2007, 12:58 AM

ok but to make it inline with christianity, you would have to have unlimited power and ability and you could go fix the lost son just for the heck of it because you have the power.

also what is the real world equivalent (or I should say, what is the god world equivalent to a son in the gutter)

simply one who does not accept jesus?

so everyone who doesnt accepot jesus is in the gutter and lost hopelessly even if they are trying to do good and help other humans?

and also to make it relevant you would have to be an invisible father to your sons, who mystically inspired a hand book to your sons long ago that taught them to believe in one book above all else.

Quahom1 · 04-21-2007, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

ok but to make it inline with christianity, you would have to have unlimited power and ability and you could go fix the lost son just for the heck of it because you have the power.

also what is the real world equivalent (or I should say, what is the god world equivalent to a son in the gutter)

simply one who does not accept jesus?

so everyone who doesnt accepot jesus is in the gutter and lost hopelessly even if they are trying to do good and help other humans?

and also to make it relevant you would have to be an invisible father to your sons, who mystically inspired a hand book to your sons long ago that taught them to believe in one book above all else.

No. Maybe the son in the gutter, needs to be there for awhile in order to get his priorities straight. If I were to pull him from his situation (because I can), I might be doing him a great disservice and greater damage to his overall development (especially if he didn't ask for my help). Never underestimate yourself. We are like steel...sometimes we have to put ourselves through the fire of tough knocks in order to become tempered and fine in sharpness and strength.

From a Christian perspective, those who do not accept Jesus are wandering in the dark. They may find the way out, but it might take them 10 times as long as it would have and lots of stumbling, than if they'd have simply used the light that Jesus offers as a guide on the path.

Remember, no one is automatically damned to hell upon death...NO ONE. Everybody will have to face the day of judgement, and their deeds will be weighed against their transgressions. It's a 50/50 chance everybody has of going to heaven or to hell.

Christians, have a get out of jail card. They will not be judged determining which dominion they will go to, but rather what place they will have in heaven. That was the promise of Jesus.

Prober · 04-21-2007, 01:32 AM

"...though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him..."

(imo) Free will is G-d's way of proving the devil wrong in his assertion that, given free will, nobody would choose to worship Him (G-d).

G-d says "okay, everyone's got free will. Go ahead and test them". So the devil tests all beings of the universe and humans fall. But G-d's plan has a twister...

Quahom1 · 04-21-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

"...though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him..."

(imo) Free will is G-d's way of proving the devil wrong in his assertion that, given free will, nobody would choose to worship Him (G-d).

G-d says "okay, everyone's got free will. Go ahead and test them". So the devil tests all beings of the universe and humans fall. But G-d's plan has a twister...

...which reminds me of the plea that Abraham had with God over Sodom and Gomorrah, and the promise he ellicited "even if 50 men were found righteous, I would spare the towns but for those".

Prober · 04-21-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

...which reminds me of the plea that Abraham had with God over Sodom and Gomorrah, and the promise he ellicited "even if 50 men were found righteous, I would spare the towns but for those".

Showing G-d's free will to have mercy.

I always wondered what would have happened if Abraham had asked G-d "what if there are only three"...

Quahom1 · 04-21-2007, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Showing G-d's free will to have mercy.

I always wondered what would have happened if Abraham had asked G-d "what if there are only three"...

He got down to ten, before God told him to get Lot and his family out of there...

incidentally, Lot must not have been too bright, if only he, his wife and two daughters were all that was left of righteosness in the whole of both towns...

Prober · 04-21-2007, 01:58 AM

His wife was kinda salty and his daughters were kinda peppery.

Quahom1 · 04-21-2007, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

His wife was kinda salty and his daughters were kinda peppery.

My wife is an old salt (sailor), but spice is nice.

Francis king · 04-21-2007, 03:49 AM

no, I wouldn't want my child to cross the road in heavy traffic, if they were three year olds, but if they are 30, and they are not ridiculously intoxicated then I would assume that they are old enough to make that decision for themselves...

... God doesnt give us free will so that we can damn ourselves to hell, he gives us free will so that by ourselves we can grow to know him... God allows us to make mistakes, yes, although it was not always so...

...it was only when jesus, his son, came to earth, did god the father realise what being a human being was and how hard it was to be good, to be decent, to be a hero... God is a powerful being... an omnipotent and omnipresent being, he does not know what it is like to have the squits, he does not know about anal warts and the flu and have a dripping nose and aching joints and a sore head, he is God...

... jesus they say, was a man, for the sake of us... the son of god, god made mortal, and because of this experience of mortality jesus intercedes on behalf of the faithful before his father, and all who seek refuge at his feet shall be saved, for that very same reason...

the triune god, the father, the son and the spirit, of christianity, does not mean that they are these seperate entities pervading space, mutually exclusive, they are one and the same thing- we have the father, the inscrutable height, the power, and we have jesus, and such prophets, and then we have the spirit, the breath of god, and our souls, well, they are of the same substance as the breath of god, the same substance as the holy spirit ..

hell... what is hell? hell is being seperated from God, and really, none of us are ever seperated from God... yeah, u sin, I sin, he sins, she sins... peter denied christ, becuase he was man, and as much as he loved jesus he was a man, and scared to be punished, to risk death, for the sake of another man.... jesus did not condemn him... jesus, being a man, could understand peters fear, could see that his weakness wasnt really a sin... Thomas, loved jesus, but when he was told that jesus had returned from the dead he didn't believe, he said- hey, I'll believe it when I see it.. Jesus didn't condemn him, either... he appeared instead, and said, hey, look at these holes in my hands...

u see, God is like a spirit, something almost intangible to u and me, and the only way God can work is via the spirit, and through the faithful... do u think that God wants war, and violence, and misery? It certainly wasn't what Jesus wanted. Jesus wanted us to be decent, to be kind to each other, to not be judgemental, to not kill, lie, steal, cheat our way through life but to try and be good citizens and have respect for each other. All our faiths say the same thing... these are things we all could do, if we wanted to...

if hell, beyond Dante, is being "without God", then what is it we need to do to be without God? If God is all seeing and all knowing, and if jesus came to show God what being human was like so he'd lighten up a bit and stop turning ppl into pilars of salt, then to be so evil or so beyond help that we were without god would be a very rare thing, as most ppl, even the most deluded and the most frightened are still ppl, and still have good hearts, even if circumstances cause them to sin...

as jesus said... knock and the door shall be opened unto u... i was told that, once u knock, even if u don't go in, the door is alwas kept ajar, and its never closed, unless u deny the spirit, the only real sin there is... which, to me, means, unless u "know" "god" or the "spirit" and ignore it, deliberately, then ur okay in Gods eyes, no matter what society might say...

we're only human after all