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Old 12-21-2006, 06:51 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

"Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it's not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be acheived" (I forget who said that, but it's one of my favorite quotes)


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Old 12-21-2006, 06:55 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

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The question I have is why pray for souls at all?
prayers acknowledge god, and it also put your heart in the right place that he sees.
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

Dondi

Is it really amazing that God chooses some and not others? That's hardly what I call agape love. Why would He choose some but not others? Is it an arbitrary decision, like a roll of the dice (shake, shake, shake...roll....."Oh, sorry, you lose... better luck nex-...er, just sorry") (shake, shake, shake...roll..."Welcome to the Kingdom of God!")

No one that wants Christ will be turned away. No one that loves God will go to Hell. God's choice in choosing people is in His own good pleasure (Romans 9). Knowing that we are the most wickedest and disgusting and putrafying things ever, why did God choose anyone? That should be your question...That question will lead you to a humble heart and a greater love for God!


Thanks for the website. And yes, I do hand out tracts and have preached in the street. I also try to reach those around my sphere of influence.

Way to go Christian!!


The question I have is why pray for souls at all?

Because God told us to and because in God's Sovereignity He has ordained or prayers to be means by which people will be saved, among other things. Prayer is very important - the most important thing for any Christian. That said, why do you pray for people who you assume are sovereign in their salvation? What makes you so sure that a natural man will choose sin's pleasure over God? Only a person who believes really understands or believe in the Effectual Calling by God can pray with faith for unsaved people. It pleases God to saves therefore we pray!
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

So no can answer the question? I want to understand why people who opt for man's choice in salvation, choose to believe that God saves people because He foresaw that they would have faith. I only see that none are coming and God saves some to display His Grace and Mercy. Can anyone show me that salvation is based on free will choice, please?
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Old 12-21-2006, 08:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

Well, the fact that you are asking people to use scripture to argue kind of limits your answers. And you seem to have already made up your mind anyway.

The fact that people choose sin, and also can choose to accept or reject Jesus is as much proof as one should need for free will in the context of salvation. In general though, there has to be free will or else there is no point in even creating humans.
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Old 12-21-2006, 08:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

moseslmpg

Well, the fact that you are asking people to use scripture to argue kind of limits your answers. And you seem to have already made up your mind anyway.

Yes, I am convinced. But, I'm not so aragant to believe something just because I like it. I have my beliefs on this subject in a flux and is waiting to hear a good argument for freewill. That said, when speaking on God's words, nothing but scripture will suffice. We can only argue scripture alone and nothing else.


The fact that people choose sin, and also can choose to accept or reject Jesus is as much proof as one should need for free will in the context of salvation. In general though, there has to be free will or else there is no point in even creating humans.

Every human chooses sin and has a free will to choose what he/she desiers. Some of you assume that the natural man chooses Christ over sin's pleasure. I disagree. I'd like to know where scripture says or shows in anyway that the natural man/unregenerated man/woman chooses God. I have shown enough that shows that none cant come until the Father draws them and that none even want to come because NONE seek. All that said, man dont accept Jesus. Jesus is King of kings and He has to accept us! Our job is to humble ourselves and recieve Him. We have to learn to clean up our "church talk" so that the unsaved can know how Big our God is, you know?
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Old 12-21-2006, 08:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

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So no can answer the question? I want to understand why people who opt for man's choice in salvation, choose to believe that God saves people because He foresaw that they would have faith. I only see that none are coming and God saves some to display His Grace and Mercy. Can anyone show me that salvation is based on free will choice, please?
Why would God chose some over others? That doesn't make sense.

Let's go back to the beginning. When Adam and Eve were created, they knew no sin. They only had one commandment, but they had two trees to choose from. The Tree of Life represented the Life of God eternally. To choose the Tree of Life was to choose eternal life. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, represented the autonomy, life without God in Man's wisdom.

Now knowing that Adam and Eve had no sin at this point, why then did they choose to sin against God? They weren't tainted by sin, yet they were tempted nonetheless. The power of darkness should not have had that influence on them. They weren't in bondage to sin.
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:06 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

It all just hurts, man can't choose Jesus and never seek G-d?? You have to be one of the selected?? Silas, I know you mean well. And I so look forward to your understanding in a few years, but for now, I'll guess I'll just have to avoid your posts.
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

Many are called, few are chosen (few choose). God alots grace to whom He pleases. The laws of God are "written" onto every man's heart. Saul repented then did not and lost all. David repented and repented again, and again, and lost nothing (in the big of things). Solomon repented, acquiesed, then grew haughty, and lost it all. Revelation points out that the future is not set in stone, but these things will come to pass if man does not turn back to God.

Everything I stated above comes from the Bible, yet shows that man has free will, yet is leading down a path that is predestined. Because God sees all futures, and this is the future man is taking.

We can turn at anytime, and when a single man even begins to turn towards God, all of heaven holds its breath...

So, individually, man has free will. Collectively, God sees the destination man is heading towards. What will happen as in revelation, will ultimately happen, but not every man will suffer that, nor lose his salvation, that is up to the individual and God.

v/r

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Old 12-21-2006, 10:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

I'd like to know where scripture says or shows in anyway that the natural man/unregenerated man/woman chooses God. I have shown enough that shows that none cant come until the Father draws them and that none even want to come because NONE seek. All that said, man dont accept Jesus. Jesus is King of kings and He has to accept us! Our job is to humble ourselves and recieve Him. We have to learn to clean up our "church talk" so that the unsaved can know how Big our God is, you know?

Why does it have to be from scripture? Does thinking about something not suffice? Considerig that God gave you a brain to contemplate things, I don't see why everything has to be backed up by some arbitrary words in a book. And men do choose to accept Jesus, or reject Him. Hence, why some people are not saved, because they refuse to accept Jesus' sacrifice and, as you say, choose to hate Him. Lastly, no, I don't know what this "church talk" sentence is referring to.
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:33 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

Quote:
Originally Posted by moseslmpg View Post
I'd like to know where scripture says or shows in anyway that the natural man/unregenerated man/woman chooses God. I have shown enough that shows that none cant come until the Father draws them and that none even want to come because NONE seek. All that said, man dont accept Jesus. Jesus is King of kings and He has to accept us! Our job is to humble ourselves and recieve Him. We have to learn to clean up our "church talk" so that the unsaved can know how Big our God is, you know?

Why does it have to be from scripture? Does thinking about something not suffice? Considerig that God gave you a brain to contemplate things, I don't see why everything has to be backed up by some arbitrary words in a book. And men do choose to accept Jesus, or reject Him. Hence, why some people are not saved, because they refuse to accept Jesus' sacrifice and, as you say, choose to hate Him. Lastly, no, I don't know what this "church talk" sentence is referring to.
Who are you talking to?
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:40 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

“Thou hast forsaken me, saith the Lord, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting” [Jer 15:6].

These chilling words on the tongue of the prophet Jeremiah say it all.

The Prophets speak of repentance - that is the totality of their message – God can do nothing with a people who refuse to repent but one thing – take away their freedom, the one thing that makes us human – and that is the whole story. If every man is predestined, then Salvation History is a a pipedream.

That is why Christ is the Good Shepherd ... and 'Prophet, Priest and King' (Calvin) ... a fact we celebrate in a few days ... marked by the attendants at his birth – the shepherd (priests) and the Magi (kings) ... only the prophets were silenced (absent), because 'the Word was made flesh, and dwelt amongst us.'

Happy Christmas,

Thomas
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:03 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

Dondi

Why would God chose some over others? That doesn't make sense.

What doesnt make sense to me is why He sent Jesus to suffer the infinite wrath of a Holy God. An innocent man suffered more than any sinner ever will in hell to be the propetiation for the ungodly. Thats unfair, but amazing to me! Now, as for why God chooses some over another, its because God is pleased to do so. Read Romans 9 please and let the Holy Spirit work. God chooses from the same lump of humanity, some equally wicked men who would never have come to Him, to display His Mercy and left other equally wicked men to do what they want, namely not repent and come to Christ, and then punishes them in the end for not coming. He didnt make them not come (He wants them to come), but He will punish them for not coming. You must see that though God is Sovereign, man still has a responsibilty. He is responsible for His sin. The sinner who is saved, is saved purely on God's grace and nothing else, lest he should think he could boast. Its sort of like this: Suppose you and I were guilty of murder and while in prison, the warden comes to me and says "Silas, the governor has chosen to be merciful on you, you are free to go!" Who do I have to thank for my freedom? No one but the govenor, thats who. Who do you have to blame? No one but you, thats who. Its the samething with saved and unsaved people!

Let's go back to the beginning. When Adam and Eve were created, they knew no sin. They only had one commandment, but they had two trees to choose from. The Tree of Life represented the Life of God eternally. To choose the Tree of Life was to choose eternal life. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, represented the autonomy, life without God in Man's wisdom. Now knowing that Adam and Eve had no sin at this point, why then did they choose to sin against God? They weren't tainted by sin, yet they were tempted nonetheless. The power of darkness should not have had that influence on them. They weren't in bondage to sin.

Right! Man's will before the fall were both able to choose up (good) and down (bad). Because their wills we not in bondage to sin, their choice were motivated by their love for God and their willingness to do good (that was their nature). Now you asked the question..."why did they chose to sin agaist God?" To be honest, I dont know. I wonder why myself. They had everything and anything they could want. But I cannot blame them, because I'm sure I would have done the samething myself. What we do know from scripture is that they did sin (only once) and it caused God to be so angry that He cast them out of the garden and pronoucned a death sentence on ALL men who were born through our fore-parants. This shows me that sin is way worst then we can even image. Thats why I say, if only we can get just a glimpse of it - just a peek of how ugly and how nasty and how disgusting and how putrafying, it is, we'd groan in agony and praise God for His wrath upon it. If sin were a physical entity, it would be worst than Satan himself.
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:12 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas View Post
Dondi

Why would God chose some over others? That doesn't make sense.

What doesnt make sense to me is why He sent Jesus to suffer the infinite wrath of a Holy God. An innocent man suffered more than any sinner ever will in hell to be the propetiation for the ungodly. Thats unfair, but amazing to me! Now, as for why God chooses some over another, its because God is pleased to do so. Read Romans 9 please and let the Holy Spirit work. God chooses from the same lump of humanity, some equally wicked men who would never have come to Him, to display His Mercy and left other equally wicked men to do what they want, namely not repent and come to Christ, and then punishes them in the end for not coming. He didnt make them not come (He wants them to come), but He will punish them for not coming. You must see that though God is Sovereign, man still has a responsibilty. He is responsible for His sin. The sinner who is saved, is saved purely on God's grace and nothing else, lest he should think he could boast. Its sort of like this: Suppose you and I were guilty of murder and while in prison, the warden comes to me and says "Silas, the governor has chosen to be merciful on you, you are free to go!" Who do I have to thank for my freedom? No one but the govenor, thats who. Who do you have to blame? No one but you, thats who. Its the samething with saved and unsaved people!

Let's go back to the beginning. When Adam and Eve were created, they knew no sin. They only had one commandment, but they had two trees to choose from. The Tree of Life represented the Life of God eternally. To choose the Tree of Life was to choose eternal life. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, represented the autonomy, life without God in Man's wisdom. Now knowing that Adam and Eve had no sin at this point, why then did they choose to sin against God? They weren't tainted by sin, yet they were tempted nonetheless. The power of darkness should not have had that influence on them. They weren't in bondage to sin.

Right! Man's will before the fall were both able to choose up (good) and down (bad). Because their wills we not in bondage to sin, their choice were motivated by their love for God and their willingness to do good (that was their nature). Now you asked the question..."why did they chose to sin agaist God?" To be honest, I dont know. I wonder why myself. They had everything and anything they could want. But I cannot blame them, because I'm sure I would have done the samething myself. What we do know from scripture is that they did sin (only once) and it caused God to be so angry that He cast them out of the garden and pronoucned a death sentence on ALL men who were born through our fore-parants. This shows me that sin is way worst then we can even image. Thats why I say, if only we can get just a glimpse of it - just a peek of how ugly and how nasty and how disgusting and how putrafying, it is, we'd groan in agony and praise God for His wrath upon it. If sin were a physical entity, it would be worst than Satan himself.
What makes you think it was the Father's idea to begin with?...
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:16 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Freewill vs Predestination

moseslmpg

Why does it have to be from scripture?

Because that alone is truth.


Does thinking about something not suffice?

Thinking is great and even better when combined with scripture. But thinking alone wont suffice...not for the Christian, at least.

Considerig that God gave you a brain to contemplate things, I don't see why everything has to be backed up by some arbitrary words in a book.

Jer. 17:9..."
The human mind is more deceitful than anything else."

And men do choose to accept Jesus, or reject Him. Hence, why some people are not saved, because they refuse to accept Jesus' sacrifice and, as you say, choose to hate Him. Lastly, no, I don't know what this "church talk" sentence is referring to.

Some men repent and trust in Jesus and therefore "recieve" His forgiveness. Other men dont. My argument is that the reason why some repent and trust in Christ and thus recieve eternal life, is because they were called out to be sheep from the foudations of the world. God the Father choose them, God the Son paid their debt, and God the Spirit seals them with the promise and leads them into truth whereby they may be trasnformed over time into the image of Christ.

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