Freewill vs Predestination

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Can Christians be sinless?

I wish!!!!

[Silas]

Quahom

No it isn't. The Book of John is good news to people who haven't heard the good news. In fact Silas, the four Gospels' sole purpose is to present glad tidings to those who know nothing about the savior.

I said 1 John and not John, Q.

I have no idea where you get this "testing personal faith" from. How the hell can a non believer test a faith they do not have? What you think the Bible is your own personal "Staples Easy" button? It is a new revelation for non believers and a reminder for believers, nothing more or less.

I get "test yourself to see if you're in the faith" from 2 Cor. 13:5. It is the constant cry in the Bible and it admonishes us to "make our calling and eleciton sure" (2 Peter 1:10). We dont want to be luke warm and think we are saved only to find out when we see the Lord that we were never his.

We test ourselves, within ourselves, not through the Good News of Christ via the Gospels.

We test ourselves by what the word of God says and nothing else.

Sorry sir, but you are starting to sound goofy, and awfully familiar...

OK. "Make your calling and election sure," bro.

[Dondi]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondi
Can Christians be sinless?

Originally Posted by Silas

I wish!!!!

Me too. But then that's the thing, we are still subjected to temptations and we thus fall. Why do we do this is we are born again?

(I'm asking these questions to lead to my point.)

By the way, I have read I John and I read it again for this conversation. And I agree that this is how we can know if we have been born again, but I also have some contentions with how you are reading it. I'd be happy to discuss them after we are done with the current line of reasoning.

[Silas]

Dondi

Me too. But then that's the thing, we are still subjected to temptations and we thus fall. Why do we do this is we are born again?

You know Dondi, I believe the reason we still sin is because we have two natures that war against each other (Romans 7 talks about this). No one can serve two masters. Either we'll serve the old nature and become slaves to sin and satan, or we'll be transformed by the renewing of our mind, be changed into Jesus' image, and thus be slaves of Christ and of righteouness.

By the way, I have read I John and I read it again for this conversation. And I agree that this is how we can know if we have been born again, but I also have some contentions with how you are reading it. I'd be happy to discuss them after we are done with the current line of reasoning.

Sure!

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

You know Dondi, I believe the reason we still sin is because we have two natures that war against each other (Romans 7 talks about this). No one can serve two masters. Either we'll serve the old nature and become slaves to sin and satan, or we'll be transformed by the renewing of our mind, be changed into Jesus' image, and thus be slaves of Christ and of righteouness.

So, because we (as Christians) are subject to temptations and fall into sin, then there is the dire possibility to become slaves to sin and Satan?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

So, because we (as Christians) are subject to temptations and fall into sin, then there is the dire possibility to become slaves to sin and Satan?

Some Christians believe that a believer can lose his faith and be unborn again - again, but I dont. As I understand salvation, once a person is born agian, God will for His own glory cause them to grow in santifaction and end in glorification. It doesnt mean that we'll be perfect, it just means we'll be growing in the direction of perfection.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

Some Christians believe that a believer can lose his faith and be unborn again - again, but I dont. As I understand salvation, once a person is born agian, God will for His own glory cause them to grow in santifaction and end in glorification. It doesnt mean that we'll be perfect, it just means we'll be growing in the direction of perfection.

At what point does one know that he is saved? Is it after saying the "sinners" prayer?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

At what point does one know that he is saved? Is it after saying the "sinners" prayer?

I'm not really a fan of that mantra (sinner's prayer), especially when people asks someone to repeat it before ever hearing the means by which God saves - namely, the gospel. The sinner's prayer is as much effective as a lawyer telling a husband who cheated on his wife to say the following: "Wife, I'm sorry for what I did." Then the husband repeating what he heard in front of his wife, "wife, I'm sorry for what I did." According to the Bible, there's no "sinner's prayer" that leads to salvation. To be saved, a person must Repent and Trust in Jesus. Thats it. True faith leads to repentence and when that occurs a person is born agian. All that said, let me just say this so you wont think me crazy: I dont deny that if a person says the "Sinner's prayer" that they could be saved. But, the reason they are saved isnt because of the words they said. Rather, it is because God saw their heart and saw that the person repented and had saving faith (trust) in Jesus. Again, when someone repents and places their trust in Christ, they are born again and thus begin the process of santification, which ends in glorification.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Silas

I dont deny that if a person says the "Sinner's prayer" that they could be saved. But, the reason they are saved isnt because of the words they said. Rather, it is because God saw their heart and saw that the person repented and had saving faith (trust) in Jesus. Again, when someone repents and places their trust in Christ, they are born again and thus begin the process of santification, which ends in glorification.

I always thought a "sinners prayer" lets others know what is in your heart. Only God can see in your heart.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by 1John3:6

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Am I to understand that in light of this verse, anyone who still sins has not yet been born again?

.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I always thought a "sinners prayer" lets others know what is in your heart. Only God can see in your heart.

Again, my problem isnt so much with the "sinner's prayer" in and of itself. My problem consist of people taking the unregenerated sinner through this montra of a prayer, when the sinner doesnt even know why he/she is coming to Christ. I hear so many gospel-less presentations, and at the end of their gospel-less sermon, they ask people to invite Jesus into their heart. Thats crazy! When leading sinners to the Lord is it our duty to do it biblically: Present the Law of God in order that they may both know and understand what sin is and why Jesus died. The law must proceed grace (the gospel) for it to make sense and actually be good news. All that we need to do when leading sinners to Christ is give them the Biblical gospel and the Spirit of God does His job from there.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Am I to understand that in light of this verse, anyone who still sins has not yet been born again?.

Yeah. That scripture is reiterated all through 1 John and it says if we walk in sin, we are not in Christ, but children of the devil. Its not saying that we wont sin, but that we will not live in sin or practice sin or have habitual sins, if we are really saved. Why? Because God promised that if He saves us, we will grow in holiness.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Am I to understand that in light of this verse, anyone who still sins has not yet been born again?

Hi aburaees--

This is from the NIV translation study notes: "John is not asserting sinless perfection (see 1:8-10; 2:1), but explaining that the believer's life is characterized not by sin but by doing what is right." (p.1909).

1John 1:8-10 reads: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar."

1John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world."

Hope this helps.

InPeace,
InLove

[Cage]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi aburaees--

This is from the NIV translation study notes: "John is not asserting sinless perfection (see 1:8-10; 2:1), but explaining that the believer's life is characterized not by sin but by doing what is right." (p.1909).

1John 1:8-10 reads: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar."

1John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world."

Hope this helps.

InPeace,
InLove

I absolutely Love 1 John, lol! Thank you InLove for sharing that, I think it was a needed addition...


~James~

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Silas

All that we need to do when leading sinners to Christ is give them the Biblical gospel and the Spirit of God does His job from there.

Silas, I have to agree with you here, bro. . . .The Spirit does the work, we are just mouthpeices.


~James~