Fundamentals of Islaam

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by arsalanj20

PersonaNonGrata!

The problem with you is that you lack enough knowledge about Islam for your claims. Let's have an active and constructive debate. I don't mean to impress you about Islam and my intention isn't either to convert you to Muslim but I only want to clear your misconceptions about Islam. I'll appreciate if you list down the questions you want to ask about Islam (with numbering). They can be questions or your verdicts (like Islam discourages women from going outside their houses etc etc). I'll answer each and every question/claim of yours with logically.

and islam is really bad man, im telling you very bad. you shouldnt be beliving in that, neverthless lets yeah start with that...lets go slow...

1) Islam discourages women from going outside their houses, and there's a very clear favor that is done by muhammed on man over the women (you may change mohammed with Allah if you'd like to)






p.s : mohammed understanding that is what the arab males wanted and realising that he needs these strong humans physical power to fight for him gave what male wanted. Easy way right? Why bother about these silly, weak females while beating them or telling them to stop solve the problem... Even, they should be covered because they are spoiling the civilization..

mondays....

[Semantic]

1) Islam discourages women from going outside their houses, and there's a very clear favor that is done by muhammed on man over the women (you may change mohammed with Allah if you'd like to)

Ok.. And what do you base this claim on? (you can quote websites or whatever)

[PersonaNonGrata]

based on the lives of the women in muslim countries..

[mirrorinthefog]

Good point, but how do you know they wouldn't be living in the same conditions without Islam?

[kind]

PNG is not talking on the base of any argument ?????
I know that even after conversion people were following there previous cultures so that is not part of Islam....PNG elaborate plz.

If i will post something from history then people will complaint we are trying to covert.

[Semantic]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

based on the lives of the women in muslim countries..

Um. Okaaay..

Funnily enough, I believe there have been more females in positions of power (president etc) of muslims countries than non-muslim countries.

Third world countries are third world countries - differences between India and Pakistan for example?

[PersonaNonGrata]

show me one muslim country that have been civilised enough to compate with the christians? Life standarts or human rights or respecting the nature or respecting each other or oh man i can see that this religion has some good points though it really is NOT a religion for loving souls..

doing some more research in quran in english, and i assume i will be putting some verses for us to debate on..

till then hugs )

[Semantic]

Ok, you bring the Qu'ran in English and I'll bring it in Arabic..

In the period 800-1800 Muslim countries were far more civilised than their Christian counterparts with respect to those facts.

Would the son of a slave have become the leader of the entire nation in the Christian countries during this period? All but four of the Abbasid caliphs were. Where was slavery abolished first? The Islamic states. Even then, with respect to slavery, any mistreatment of slaves would result in their master being punished in kind. Slaves could free themselves through hard work and could only be enslaved during periods of war.

Females were scholars just like males in the formative periods of Islam, especially in the fields of hadith study. It was incumbent upon males religiously and civilly to provide for their wives. If somebody made an accusation against a chaste woman (ie she's a ho), they would recieve 80 lashes in punishment for slurring her in that way.

Christians were historically allowed to worship in Jerusalem until they came with the "Crusades", killing women and children in the process (cutting open their bellies for gold). Heck, they even sacked Constantinople a couple of times, right? Jews were allowed to worship within the Islamic state and even had to pay less tax than the muslims in return for state protection. How were non-christians treated in Europe etc at this time?

In the last hundred years or so, we've seen the degradation of just about every country.

I would point to Western countries as having become morally decadent and uncivilised in this respect - the objectification of women and commoditisation of sex disgusts me.

Similarly, Western governments (hi USA) have installed and propped up dictatorships/monarchys in areas such as the middle east (look at Iran, where the US overthrew the democratically elected government) - regimes based on puritanical and minority opinions of Islam which objectify women in the other way; by projecting male promiscuities onto them and, I agree, limiting their rights and ability to function in society. However, the views of these scholars is not the view of the majority, even if the state does claim to be holding onto the "Shariah".

You claim respect in the chrisitian countries. The holocaust? Respect. Apartheid? Respect. Ghettoisation/segregation of race? Respect.

Look at Hajj in Makkah and you'll see respect. 4 million muslims of all colours and races joining together every year for a singular purpose. Something that has occured for over a millenia. I'll quote a letter by Malcolm X (aka El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz) shortly after he embraced mainstream Islam:

When he was in Makkah, Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz wrote a letter to his loyal assistants in Harlem... from his heart:

"Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.

"I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca, I have made my seven circuits around the Ka'ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad, I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat."

"There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white."

"America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered white - but the white attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color."

"You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth."

"During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept on the same rug - while praying to the same God - with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the deeds of the white Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan and Ghana."

"We were truly all the same (brothers) - because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude."

"I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man - and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their 'differences' in color."

"With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called 'Christian' white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster - the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves."

"Each hour here in the Holy Land enables me to have greater spiritual insights into what is happening in America between black and white. The American Negro never can be blamed for his racial animosities - he is only reacting to four hundred years of the conscious racism of the American whites. But as racism leads America up the suicide path, I do believe, from the experiences that I have had with them, that the whites of the younger generation, in the colleges and universities, will see the handwriting on the walls and many of them will turn to the spiritual path of truth - the only way left to America to ward off the disaster that racism inevitably must lead to."

"Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a white man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors - honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King - not a Negro."

"All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.

Sincerely,

Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X)

(From the AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X with assistance from Alex Haley, the author of ROOTS)

Malcolm X saw and experienced many positive things. Generosity and openheartedness were qualities which were impressed on him by the welcome which he received in many places. He saw brotherhood and the brotherhood of different races and this led him to disclaim racism and to say: "I am not a racist... In the past I permitted myself to be used... to make sweeping indictments of all white people, the entire white race, and these generalizations have caused injuries to some whites who perhaps did not deserve to be hurt. Because of the spiritual enlightenment which I was blessed to receive as the result of my recent pilgrimage to the Holy City of Mecca, I no longer subscribe to sweeping indictments of any one race. I am now striving to live the life of a true Sunni Muslim. I must repeat that I am not a racist nor do I subscribe to the tenets of racism. I can state in all sincerity that I wish nothing but freedom, justice and equality, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all people."

(The preceding material was excerpted from The Autobiography of Malcolm X quoted in an article written by the Institute for Islamic Education.)

Anybody who's been there will agree with him, I certainly do - given his background it is all the more striking.. Islam doesn't preach understanding and is not for a loving soul? I'd disagree with you on that one..

Islam does not allow items such as "collateral" damage when engaged in war.. Islam teaches it don't matter if you're black or white. Islam teaches that women are to be respected and not harassed. Charity for the poor is integrated into it's civil framework.. Islamic states retained and worked on human knowledge (via individuals such as Ibn Sina) throughout the so called "Dark Ages" when "Christians" were torturing and burning "heretics". When "knights" were murdering and pillaging indiscriminantly. While the "holy" Roman empire was in free fall.

It's a shame there are no more truly Islamic states.

[Abogado del Diablo]

It's not Islam or Christianity per se that create or allow miserable social conditions and unconscionable inequities. It is Fundamentalism, regardless of its form (including non-"religious" fundamentalism like fascism), that creates these problems. Both "religions" have a miserable track record when the literal-minded fundamentalists are in charge. The religion of hate is indeed cross-cultural.

[Semantic]

Eh, it's not just Islam or Christianity.. Look at the deaths attributable to Stalin (40 million russians?) etc..

[arsalanj20]

Congrats Semantic for the wealth of knowledge you have and thanks for sharing with us. Let me have my thoughts on "Status of Women in Islam".

It's true that there is indeed difference between a religion and its followers. As far as I know, drinking alcohol is forbidded in Bible but I'm sure most of the christians aren't aware about it. Apparently, Islam is suuposed to be followed (with its original spirit) in Saudi Arabia but sadly, there are many practices done in Saudi Arabia that are either too controversal to be agreed upon by all Muslims or they are not according to The Quran and Hadith. For instance, status of women in Saudi Arabia (an probably in most of the Arab countries) is pathetic. Women aren't allowed to work or drive cars. If we recall the history, in the times of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), women took part even in wars, together with men. That was between about 590 AD and 620 AD. On the other hand, women weren't even allowed to vote till 1920 in USA and 1928 in England! My point is that if you see extremists terrorists in Pakistan, Princes' of Arabian countries having tens of dozens of wives or plight of women inder Taliban rule, these things are against Islamic teachings. Islam hasn't anything to do with them. Hitler was a christian. Did anyone hear say that Hitler was a christian and hence christianity is a bad religion?? I saw a scholor on TV pointing out that there were thousands of suicide bombers belonging to tamil tigers of India (active in Sri Lanka) but did anyone said that suicide bombing is a fundamental teaching of HInduism? Let's keep religion and it's followers seperate. There is difference between religion and its followers. Talking about Women's rights specifically, I found this really nice webpage about women rights in Islam. Check this out at http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/Islamwomen.html

About high life standards of christian countries, PersonaNonGrata is overlooking the past. It's a matter of the nature that there are high tides and low tides in different periods. PersonaNonGrata is talking about 2004 only...or only a 1-2 hundred years back. Since the completion of Islam in some 600 AD, Muslims ruled the world when they stuck to the basic teachings of Islam but when they left that and drowned in other pleasures of the world, they started to decline and their decline started after 18th-19th century. Just to remind you of one incident....when Muslims conquered Spain in some 700's AD, Europeon people were in total dark. no education...just beer, horses, farming etc. Muslims developed universities and libraries there and started educating the Europeans. At that time...there wasn't even one concrete road in Spain and there wasn't any concept of lamp-posts on roads. Muslims developed concrete roads and lamp-posts. During those times, that were Muslim scientists who dominated the world. Most of the scientists were miltiple-in-one. For instance, a single Muslim scientist would be expert in Maths, Biology, Astronomy, Geology etc. Muslims contributed in all the technical fields (like Maths, Geology, Astronomy etc). That was a golden era of Muslims. Ufortunately, history speaks itself, that the Muslims got indulged in non-Islamic practices and hence, since then, plight of Muslims has worsened. Let's not forget the history. Muslims ruled Spain for 700 years and Indian subcontinent for over 1000 years. "High life standard" and "development" of christian countries has started just now...roughly after 1700s. Remember, it's not an open war between Islam and Christianity but one shouldn't speak blindly. Do read some history and talk on the basis of facts.

I think PersonaNonGrata will get the answer of his question from the URL I have mentioned above. Do free to ask any other questions

[mirrorinthefog]

There is always a minority that is mistreated, in every society, regardless of its high moral standards, or lack thereof. There is no perfect system.
Therefore, I have to strongly object to romaticizing the past in the name of any religion. Our versions of what was is inheritly distorted, as history is written from the perspective of the victors. During the "Golden Age" of Islam, many scholars were hard at work translating Greek and Roman text, interpreting them. Someone with the same one-sided viewpoint could very easily argue that Muslim scholars in fact were relying on early Western work.
Slavery, whether "humane" or not, is still slavery. Middle Eastern peoples, Arabs especially engaged in it as actively as Europeans did, and continued to do so into the early modern period. There are various portions of the Qur'an that deal with it, however much it encourages one to act with charity against his or her servants, it does not rule the practice out entirely. There is nothing in the Qur'an that denounces slavery, or punishes those who participate in it.
The very idea that someone would be lashed for "insulting a chaste woman" is in itself, at least in my humble opinion, inhumane. There are much easier ways to go about preventing such undesirable behavior.
As I said before, there are flaws in every system, we simply use what is more practical to implement now. But to blame all your ailments on the big bad _________(insert culture/people/country/religion/creed here) serves no higher purpose. What is taboo for one country is not for others. It's not because Westerners are any more or less perverse than other nations. Just as much of the misconduct you see on TV goes on in the East as in the West. It's simply handled differently. It's not a matter of what is 'bad' or 'good' 'moral' and 'immoral' it's a matter of what is socially acceptable. To judge people based on what you think society 'should' be like, based on what happened in some part of the world several hundred years ago, would be a mistake. As I said before, every system has flaws.

[mirrorinthefog]

Arsaanj20, you're asking us to do the impossible. Though I value your viewpoint, I can't agree that religion itself can be seperated from its followers. Granted, there is a smear campaign going on, and many people are being grossly misinformed about Islam. But philosophy is just a bunch of poetry if it's not applied to the real world. At some point, there has to be action.
And I don't mean several hundred years in the past. (Otherwise, a Christian could argue, as you did about the Andalus in Spain, that Christianity brought civilization to the rest of the world because of great innovators like Leonardo DaVinci, a Christian, who came up with models for airplanes, tanks, and cars, several hundred years before their inventions, while the Ottomans were still on horseback, and Guttenberg invented the printing press, and so on....) How can one learn about a religion, beyond books and other media? The followers of a religion, good or bad, represent the religion itself. Whether a few fundementalists here or a few extremists there are not applying the rules of Islam, doesn't change that. If no nation in the world is willing to implement the rules of a religion, as you see them, and quote what is convenient for their regime, it doesn't look really good for the religion as a whole. Wrong or not, no prominent Muslim country will step up and publicly condemn Saudi Arabia for its human rights violations.

[Semantic]

Well.. A key differential is the fact that Islam was implemented as a state system for a significant period of time, something which was not the case with Christianity (one could argue about Judaism).

The followers of Islam in the current climate are, by and large, standard people (as it were) - some good, some bad. All live in non-Islamic (as in implementation of law) countries - there is no condemnation of human rights in Saudi because most other countries have a secular law system - be it a dictatorship or a "democracy".

The Qu'ran and hadith literature clearly limit slavery to pow's only - it would, quite simply, have not been sensible to do otherwise in the formative period of Islamic state development. What would have been better, killing all captives? Slaves could manumit themselves, own property and it was strictly impermissable to harm them (look to Qu'ran and hadith for penalties) - punishable by the State statutes no less. Slavery was better than serfdom - the sheer number of high positions of slaves who were either freed, or indeed freed themselves or individuals who were born of slaves paints a telling picture with regard to "societal acceptability". The position and treatment of slaves within the Islamic and non-Islamic world through the middle ages was worlds apart - indeed, even at the turn of the century, race relations and slave bigotry was far more pronounced than it was at any time. Indeed, if you look the mukatab, you can see the concept is essentially one of blood debt - the slave was the individual who would otherwise have been killed (being captured in battle in a situation in which prison was not possible) - hence the slave could manumit himself by paying off the blood debt. The conditions for slavery were restricted from caliph to caliph until during the Ottoman Empire, there was no longer any need for the institution and it was effectively no longer possible.

Any body who does a study of Islamic philosophy/science can readily see that there were new innovations and developments building on the prior work of the Greeks etc. It doesn't make sense to go and rebuild the wheel - we do not do so today, we take from esteemed scholars and thinkers and work on their theories and ideas, do we not?

Of course, in one's analysis of the "moral" acceptability or "value" of a given system, one cannot be totally objective. Why? Because, as mirrorinthefog has indicated, there is no agreed upon absolute for morality or goodness. As a muslim, my goodnesscompass is delineated by the actions I believe are in accordance with the Shariah, the will of Allah (swt) and my own imperfect understanding of this. I acknowledge that as a result, this will not the same as a non-muslims perspective on the issue as he, quite simply, will not have the same perspective on life as I do (a challenge which builds towards the hereafter).

Similarly, I constitute religion not as a social phenomenon, but as a Divine revelation sent to guide and assist humanity. This is, again, my absolute, so I judge my religion not by the imperfect and culturally inebriated practices of certain members of the community, but rather by the original message and essential abstraction of it's rules and dicates as I believe were revealed to us. That is how I learn my religion, through reading of it's dictates from individuals with a direct chain back to the Prophet (pbuh) who carry on his legacy. Of course, this works on the basis of my faith that this process is epistemologically correct - the Truth is conveyed exactly as I believe in a Divine who has preserved his message (the dhikr). But that's where I'm coming from. And that's the centrality of the issue - tawhid..

Over a billion muslims in the world, mostly divided between the very rich and the very poor. Quite a change over the last century and a bit (hi oil).. Some good, some bad, some nutty. None in a muslim country however.. Kinda sad.

So, we can talk about it as an abstraction (ie this is what Islam really says) - an abstraction I believe a large number of people follow, or we can discuss it on the basis of Islam as a socio-cultural phenomenon, which will go beyond the base texts (Qu'ran, hadith etc) and introduce external elements.

Interestingly, the situation that we have at the moment plays into our end-of-times prophecies (come on, every religion has to have one at least ). The degradation of the state of the Ummah and practice of religion is something that occurs after every Messenger (pbut) - this is the final degradation before all hell breaks lose.. So the bad treatment of minorities is, alas, something to be expected and will only get worse

[mirrorinthefog]

Originally Posted by Semantic

The followers of Islam in the current climate are, by and large, standard people (as it were) - some good, some bad. All live in non-Islamic (as in implementation of law) countries - there is no condemnation of human rights in Saudi because most other countries have a secular law system - be it a dictatorship or a "democracy".

With all due respect, why is it that secular Western nations are more upset with Saudi applications of Sharia, than Eastern states, secular or not, with heavy Muslim populations, who should rightfully be outraged at their misdeeds and their abuse of Islamic doctrine?

As for slavery, there are many verses in the Qur'an that discuss slaves who are not prisoners of war, though it does speak of treating them "humanely". However, it makes no efforts to abolish the practice. Arab merchants traded slaves with Europeans, and they took no pains to make sure that the Europeans would treat them well.

[4.25] And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.