Gaia theory and its relationship to faiths

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Z and thanks for visting.

Does evolution arrive at humanity just by chance - I don’t think so! For me it is a question of source. What comes first principle or events moulded by it! The humanative is a principle by which evolution is ‘pre-set’ [loosely meant] to arrive at humanity! This is not a rigid thing, it is an idea that there is universal human nature e.g. intelligent beings throughout the universe would develop human like features & or high intelligence & ethics + religion. All creatures, plants, stars & planets [etc.] types would also have a pre-destined nature! The whole evolution tree would thence be within the womb of the earth mother – so to say, thus it is not mere co-incidence [which I find vague beyond belief] that we exist and are here debating our nature!

This is something I have a great deal of trouble accepting and for a very simple yet very massive question remains unanswered. Why ,if the case is as you state, did 'evolution' waste 350 million years playing around with dinosaurs? I find this question difficult to balance with what knowledge I am forced to work with. It seems to me more as if Gaia itself is evolving and gaining conciousness. That any future 'planning' it has is more of a reactive response to what it has learned on its journey to this point. This perhaps has changed with the advent of Man. Perhaps not only are we the reproductive organ, as i touched on in my opening post, but the emerging conciousness of a Gaia reaching puberty. In much the same way as a teenager begins to think independently. (puts a whole new sway on the phrase '[his] brain is in his pants'.). And it is not reliant on mere coincidence.......its more trial and error, learning from mistakes made and perhaps even educated guessing.

If the universe had infinite potential and occurred purely by chance then it would eventually arrive at humans etc. but in infinite time we would have come and gone yet always be here [thus ‘it’ would ‘know’ all history]. Now imagine that there is a nature of universal mind/sub-quantum mind that has the capacity to find the ‘natural line’ or evolution of a trend and all trends. So it can ‘traverse the veins of time’ [and are those veins] arriving at the pre-conceptual principles that bind reality in its ‘ever evolving state continuum’. In other words ‘it is the mould by which all things are cast’ as it is ‘that which is cast’!

Possibly, but in a very real sense, and for all intents and purposes pertaining to evolution each moment is essentially a stepping stone to the next,(or preceeding) moment. Its impossible, IMHO, not to accept the infinite potential of infinity but so far as it relates the physical potentials in the evolution of life/Gaia I feel we have not sufficient information to say any more than it is evolving as any organism does. I dont see any evidence anywhere as yet that Gaia is not learning as it goes. Up till Man's emergence I think even Gaia was unable to contemplate its place in the cosmos, let alone time. Only in the centuries to come as Man is able to discover other Gaia's can we begin to answer whether 'it is the mould by which all things are cast'.

I have discussed this on other recent threads, but spirit is in all things and is all things the singularity is an atom-self [ancient Greek meaning to the term Atom – kinda], and everything from plankton to us are also atom-selves [planets and stars etc. too]. It is like an onion with many evolutionary and layers of potential evolutions. Then there is the fact that all life and we can too have an effect on evolution! The human genome project confounded scientists who believed it was all rather mechanical and that gene sequences equalled us. Yet the environment plays a crucial part in switching off parts of the gene tree e.g. in ivf treatments the genes are affected by the temporary transfer of the donor egg where it is impregnated, often causing genetic diseases! [all this was on horizon {tv program} recently] this shows how we may directly affect our evolution – if humans do or believe in something for long enough then it changes us!

I suppose this begs the questions "what is Gaia and how does it relate to the universe/multiverse?" Humour me and read this little idea based on the possibilities I have heard bandied about by scientists.
Our solar system was not always as it appears today. At one time venus was much farther out and there was another planet where the asteroid belt is now, between mars and Jupiter. Some highly advanced civilisation ( think of them as part of another Gaia and therfor a God), came along and saw a solar system with great potential for life to flourish on its (then) 2nd planet. But it had already formed a crust and all the minerals etc required to sustain life were locked away. So this race decided in order to kick start and maintain the the tectonics the crust of the earth had to be shattered and a moon put in orbit to create the gravitational stresses to maintain plate movement. And so they gave a gentle nudge to the twin planets orbiting where the asteroid belt is and they collided. The bigger planet remained largely intact but drifted into an orbit much closer to the sun and is now the planet Venus. The smaller one was smashed to pieces and the largest chunk sent on a trajectory to hit Earth. When it impacted the crust was shattered and a large chunk was thrown back up to form the moon. This extra-terestrial Gaia then seeded the early Earth. Knowing that one day it would evolve as it had.
Perhaps a nice little SF story, who know perhaps the absolute truth !! But even if it were true it does not infer a Universal 'spirit'. It was another much more evolved Gaia doing what any life form is driven to do, reproduce. But the fact appears to be that the 'building blocks' of life appear to be an abundant part of space dust. The Universe is teeming with potential and it requies no seeding as in my mini story. I have little doubt that life is as pernicious and pervasive throughout the universe as we see it here on Earth, cramming every possible space from the high atmosphere to the abyssal depths to deep within the crust.. But why? Why is it so determined to evolve? Surely not so it can create a species evolved enough to argue over which idea of God to worship?

Ok so where am I going with this! Well we have the capacity to change, yet whatever we change into is already a part of the onion! This is applicable as far as major change is concerned e.g. something as different as apes and humans would be part of the pre-conceived evolutionary path, yet more superfluous changes are ours.

And I have to say that with the meagre knowledge I have, I have to agree with you. But still I feel there is something else there that we are just unable to grasp yet. And more I feel its staring us in the face.


Thanks again for your post Z

Regards

TE

[Tao_Equus]

The posts from you Taijasi and Z are forcing me to think a bit further than I have ever thought before, especialy in relation to the energy potential and purpose in inanimate atoms. The past few days I have found myself looking at Gaia not as an isolated bubble of life adrift in the cosmos but as part of an even greater 'onion' as you both put it. Though dissecting the onion from the inside out requires the adroit deftness of the keyhole surgeon and I feel I'm more a ham fisted butcher.
Presupposing that 'Spirit' is the essence, the metaphorical DNA, of matter then purpose, benign or contrived, is everywhere in everything. So far we have gone through a few layers of the 'onion', electron, atom, cell, body, ecosystem, Gaia. The next layer then would be the sun and all within the heliosphere. The sun protects us from interstellar radiation, (especially extremely dangerous gama radiation), in a way directly comparable to the way in which our atmosphere protects us from harmful types of solar radiation. And so our solar system also shares many of characteristics of the cell. Next layer would be the Galactic bubble, then the galactic Cluster bubble and ultimately the Universal bubble.
Now this idea is not new to me or anybody else thats taken a cursory look around them. And again that visual interpretation of Chaos theory, the mandlebrot set immediately springs to mind. My problem however is nowhere in all this do I see intent, or evolution for that matter, (for life cycle is not evolution). This pattern seems to me to be more an inherrant property than a purposeful design. And I thus conclude that searching for the universal spirit in the physical fabric of the observable universe to be a futile excersise. Its like trying to understand how my computer works from looking at the casing.
There are however these invisible forces at play such as gravity, electro-magnetism and the nuclear forces. We have always looked on those as properties of matter, our view seems to be that matter causes them to be. But what if matter is but the bi-product of those and other forms of energy we are only just begining to comprehend or of which we are as yet unaware? That though matter makes all these wonderful kaliadoscopic accretions, matter does not infact matter. That its the energy what counts.
Physicists have proved, to themselves at least, that our universe has many more than the 3 spatial dimensions and time. I believe they currently are of the consensus that there are 9 or 10 dimensions to reality. The average man cannot get his head round this and conceptualise it in any meaningful way. The tools in our cognitive toolbox have a hard enough time understanding the true nature of time. So if there is a Universal spirit God man is not made in its image. God is after all supposed to be all seeing where as we can barely see a third of whats right under our noses.
I have a feeling that mankind is on the edge of a breathrough in understanding and that its our analytical prowess that will bring it about and not our spiritual enlightenment. I believe that the only God relevant to us is the one of which we are most directly a part of, and I call that God Gaia. And why should we need more? It is a sad fact that we appear intent on wiping out much of what Gaia has strived to create over countless millenia and on killing each other in the name of doctrines that entirely miss the point. I look at Gaia and I see a bubble of the most profound beauty adrift in a vast ocean of essentially hostile space. I see Man as the pinnacle of its evolution. But most of Mankind is intent on self-obsessed navel gazing, groveling to his own fictitious demons born of primitive superstition and adopted by charlatans who want power and nothing else.
I hope in time, and 'in time', we come as a race to worship the one God we can surely see and that we a surely a part of and reject the superstions of our ignorant childhood, there is no Santa Claus. And as long as we search for salvation in anthropic Gods and the promise of eternal life we are ignoring what we are really a part of. Gaia, as any organism might, will tolerate extreme personal hardship to reproduce but it cannot be expected to endure its own self destruction as a price. If we dont recognise what we are a part of soon and behave accordingly then I am afraid Gaia will get rid of us and try again.

TE

[_Z_]

Tao equus, hi

In reply to your second to last post, I’ll answer then next one as soon as possible.

That is an interesting parallel you drew there, where humanity is like gaia reaching puberty! Did you answer your own question there!

Gaia is learning as it goes

Of course – as concerns linear time! Yet infinity knows all as all things are within it. Thus the universe has order, it did not begin with chaos and everything ‘fits together’ because all things are relative to one another. There is something there we just need to find it- I fell we are moving nearer to an explanation!

Why is it so determined to evolve? Surely not so it can create a species evolved enough to argue over which idea of God to worship

Perhaps it is simply so that ‘all forms must become of themselves’! and/or dinosaurs existed because there form is one of the potential forms that would evolve in an early stage of a given evolution path [it may be different elsewhere in the universe], eventually more complex creatures would out perform them [mammals]. Yes we may be her to ask if god exists, then again what will we be asking in a thousand years time, or even a million years time! It is sometimes useful to imagine resultant natures of things i.e. ‘the after the fact’ beings – when the questions have been answered [although there will always be questions]. What then is the point of evolution, when the peak is reached? Evolution that cannot evolve any further! Do we then simply ‘exist to exist’ in a simple life?



I so agree, that we are staring ‘it’ [the ‘something else’ that is ungraspable] in the face , but it is illusive and seeks not to be known – but we’ll catch the elusive creature one day eh!



Btw, if we add your gaia theory to my atom-self theory, then when you think about it the atom can be microscopic and macroscopic, thus gaia is an atom-self.

Of course this atom-self thing is not the final vision! I am moving towards a less rigid and universal idea, where we are epicentre’s of universal mind and that this is a fundamental nature of the physical universe as well as the spiritual. What we think and do merges with the environment both ‘mental’ {and quantum} and holistic, even affecting our gene evolution [ I’ll explain as it comes to me]. Perhaps there is a side to evolution generally that is relative to the interactions of thought, and thence the nature of spirits/souls evolving in thought evolution creating the resultant physical manifestation of forms. This is then transformed externally – like feedback – into what we normally consider to be evolution e.g. survival of the form creates change in a kind of circle.



Fascinating thread this is/is becoming!



Z

[Tao_Equus]

Ty for your post Z


I do like where you are going with your thinking. I remember reading something about when Einstien got his Eureka moment and he said that it was not something he could see or touch but that he intuitively/ instinctualy sensed its presence hovering just out of site till "pop" there it was. But his 'atom-self', if I understand you right, was exceptional, rare and had huge 'gravity'. He was an atom of plutonium, you might say, where as I am reluctant to claim a place in the periodic table beyond some lowly gas.

This thread is revealing to me just how difficult it is to marry all the plausibles with all the possibles into some coherant whole. Of course this is no suprise It is my natural tendency to approach each observation of the esoteric properties of spirit and nature with scientific rigour, as a kind of control. There comes a point however where its all just blind speculation. Thats where we become artists though and its very possible that inspired artistry is the only way round the dead ends of our limited information.

The arcane inter-relationships of matter and spirit are more difficult to grasp now than ever precisely because when we look hard all we see is the infinite. Your idea of 'atom self' is compelling and the concept of it making limited manipulations using the quantum matrix is not at all implausible to me. And the fact that most of that manipulation would take place on a subconcious level adds wieght to the idea that infinity itself is not a boundless space in which the program runs but that it is the program itself. But how do we begin to contemplate infinity? I suppose we can only do what we are doing, look for patterns and infer meaning from them. Its like God/Universal Spirit/Purpose gave us a 1000 billion piece jigsaw of a plate of baked beans, said good luck and walked away chuckling.

Bringing it back to the more graspable and back to Gaia. I have thus far used the term God for Gaia. We tend to think of a God as superior in every way to us. Gaia however appears to be a lot more benign than our usual concepts. More a ruminant sedately masticating its way through the evolutionary processes than a humanoid astride some chariot traversing the heavens and keeping a watchful eye on his dominions. Perhaps this is why despite the obvious logic in Gaia theory that the worlds religeons almost without exception have totaly ignored it. Its just not sexy enough. Even with the idea that Mankind is its sex organ and its emerging conciousness. So I just wanted to add I found it rather funny and ironic that in all my swings at the faulty anthropocentrism inherant in the worlds religeons I have gone and outdone them all!!
(Note; I am not claiming these ideas as my own original thoughts. They are from books on Gaia theory including James Lovelocks books).

Gaia may not be a God to everyone and even to me perhaps more a Godling. On a fundamenmtal level it may just be a creature created by a much greater Infinite and Multiversal God. But in the physical every day reality of our existance there is no more important a God.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

And I have to say that with the meagre knowledge I have, I have to agree with you. But still I feel there is something else there that we are just unable to grasp yet. And more I feel its staring us in the face.
TE

there is no doubt about that. if we could figure it all out and prove it, then we would be Gaia.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Bandit

there is no doubt about that. if we could figure it all out and prove it, then we would be Gaia.

lol...the wit !!....the wit!!
I dont mean a spiritual revelation.......more that we have all the data from a scientific perspective but we are missing the point somehow

[taijasi]

TE, and others,

I wanted to return briefly to the idea of organization of units into increasingly more complex aggregations ... until an entirely new type of unit is formed -> the true quantum leap. Here are some excerpts from several replies that I've typed, but not actually posted:

As we observe these levels, where parts seem to combine with increasing complexity (observing these from an outside perspective), there does appear to be a logical jump from the human organism to Gaia, according to Gaia Theory. What I would suggest is that there are actually several noteworthy levels of complexity in between, each of whose proper function is vital for good health of the overall organism (planet, globe, `Gaia entity').

The simplest aggregation of human beings worthy of consideration here is a small group with some conscious, dedicated purpose. While that could be as simple as tea & crumpets on Wednesdays, I'm thinking more along the lines of World Service organizations like UNICEF, the Red Cross, Greenpeace, and United Way. Certainly these exist as large, even global groups, but they are also comprised of individual volunteers coming together at the local level to work toward a common Service goal. I think this is a key point that figures in much of the rest of what I'm going to say.

At the obvious, geographical levels we have humans gathered into the nexus of a small, physical Community, a town, various sizes of cities, and then various groupings like counties, wards, parishes, commonwealths, states, and so forth - often being different terminologies for any geographical region larger than a single city. Finally, we arrive at nations, and these - together - comprise Humanity. We might also consider continents, since these are certainly geographical boundaries, but in terms of human organization we focus more on nations.

All personal political opinions aside, it is a statement of fact that the United Nations organization was formed to eliminate war, safeguard human rights, guarantee international justice, and promote social progress. To this end, the UN promotes tolerance, peace & cooperation, strengthens international peace & security, ensures governance of the use of armed force, and promotes economic & social advancement of all peoples. Now gee, that doesn't sound like an evil, secret plot for global domination. The fact that we have short-circuited, circumvented, and siphoned resources away from the noble purpose of the UN, however, may just be some sort of conspiracy. Hmmm ...

Anyway, back to the topic of groups organized & organizing according to Gaia Theory ... I think we could also look at Humanity in terms of the different functions that are fulfilled by our individual occupations, or fields of vocational endeavor. There are, certainly, a few politicians who can set aside greed & lust for power - and these few, brave, proven souls do their best to lead. There are also educators, and a tremendous number of souls labor ceaselessly and devotedly (though under-funded in most instances) to lead Humanity from darkness to Light ... within the classroom.

There are orators, diplomats, artists, actors, musicians, and scientists of a thousand callings, clergymen, bankers, computer programmers, librarians, social workers, and so forth. Many of these, as with politicians and educators, can be grouped under the headings of main fields of endeavor - such as the "hard" sciences (biology, chemistry, astronomy, etc.), the social sciences, the field of religion, and the rather large grouping of artists working in a host of different media. Speaking of media, there is even a grouping unto itself - "the media," serving as the communications center (or throat center, wherein speech originates as energy) within Humanity itself, just as the esoteric model considers Humanity the throat center for the entire planet.

What I think all this leads up to ... is that Humanity actually plays a vital part in the Gaia organism (or Planetary Entity) - and I think that while serving a reproductive function may constitute a good part of our role, the story certainly does not end there. Yes, for many people there is little consciousness beyond the sex function and associated activities (eating, sleeping, etc.), but for many others there is a rich emotional life which already takes our collective role within the Gaia organism to a whole new level.

If the Hermetic Axiom `As above, so below' applies (and its inverse, so long as we can resist the temptation to over-anthropomorphize), then we might conclude that Gaia as a growing, self-conscious entity is somewhere in her rebellious teenage years - where sexuality is certainly a serious issue, but where her emotional states are probably of even greater concern. I'll have to return to the distinction between Life/Spirit and the form, or vehicle it expresses through - from my previous post - if I'm to go much further. But the real crux of the matter comes into light if we consider collective Humanity in its highest function within the Planetary Spirit (aka, Gaia) at this point in history:

We are like brain cells.

If, indeed, every human unit is like a brain cell in the planetary entity, then several things immediately become clear. First, we can understand our tendency to anthropomorphize ... as the double-edged sword that is actually is. On the one hand, since we know that we are created (in the sense of being fashioned, or designed - an ongoing, live process lasting billions of years, I would submit) in the image of the Divine ... then as we apply the Hermetic Axiom (mentioned above), surely we gain some degree of insight into both our true nature and G-d's! Fascinating! And wonderful.

But, to many, the shift in presumed self-importance, and the resulting change of perspective ... can seem a devastating death-blow to the sense of "personal deity" that has become so popular. There is no dearth of volunteers to attest to everyday conversations - usually in one's own native tongue - carried on between self and G-d. Yet there is also such an insistence on the part of each witness that his or her experience is exactly as s/he has interpreted it - possible of no other explanation or approach from any other angle ... that it's no wonder a rational, thinking human being is apt to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" when approaching the subject of organized religion, rather than begin the mammoth task of sorting out fact from fiction and liberating the kernal of truth from the mountains of superstition that dominate the surrounding landscape.

If humans are like Deity's brain cells, then I would ask you: Do you listen attentively to your brain cells each day, at every hour, minute by minute? Do you bend down, and put the rest of the world on hold in order to meet the agenda of each individual brain cell - especially those most out of concert with their neighbors? Do you even really stop to notice when your brain cells cooperate, and when thinking goes as it's supposed to? It seems to me that the closest we can get to talking about "a relationship with our brain cells" is if we acknowledge that most of us do want our brains to work properly, we do want to try to use the vast percentage of our brains that remain as yet untapped ... and we do make an effort, at least sometimes, to see to our individual health (or that of our children, loved ones, etc.) in such a way that our brains can cooperate well with the rest of our bodies, and so that our brains can fulfil the function for which they were designed (sic).

So, to serve G-d best it seems to me we might offer to fulfil the least part of that function or purpose within His Greater Being for which Humanity was created ... and that is to serve as the thinking apparatus with regard to the external world. Through Humanity, G-d's Plan can be fulfilled (that's through us and not despite us!). Just as each of us has a sense of Purpose that gradually increases and deepens as we draw nearer to Deity, so also our collective understanding of ourselves as a race and as a species will surely deepen as we begin to fulfill - joyfully and gladly - the task of service for which we were created. I seem to recall some great Teacher or another indicating - Loving service to each other, to the planet, and even especially to every last being that slights us. Do we do this yet? (And yet, oddly enough, many wonder year after year why deity does not descend through the clouds - or at least send his representative - to magically and mystically deliver us from ourselves. As if this same Teacher did not emphasize Responsibility and Self-Reliance as two of our most powerful allies on the royal road. Or perhaps his words fell on deaf ears.)

Anyway, I do find it somewhat disgusting what we have done to this planet - and being an adherent to the teaching of Rebirth (or Cause and Effect on every level - spiritual just as physical) ... I know I own plenty of the blame for why things are thus. Perhaps, at some great level almost beyond our understanding, we are ultimately subject to the Karma of that Deity in Whom we live, and move, and have our being. More than perhaps - I think this is certain. And esoterically, such a being is described as `an Imperfect G-d.' This contrasts with the 7 Spirits before the Throne in Revelations, Whom and which can be enumerated in terms of their corresponding physical means of expression - the planetary bodies Vulcan, Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Venus, Neptune, and Uranus. [Yes, Herschel saw Vulcan - closer to the Sun than Mercury - with his telescope shortly before this planet became esoterically obscured ... but science today has tried to account for this event with Occam's Razor - always sticking to the simplest explanation regardless of the truth of the matter. Alas, I cannot defend my belief with physical evidence.]

Esoteric astrology has long taught what modern astronomy has finally confimed - that Pluto is no planet at all. This is a solar satellite, and is relevant to esoteric astrology, but is not an evolving entity (or the physical expression thereof). Mars and Earth, however, are considered Planetary Schemes - just as the other seven, but "younger" or of lesser attainment. This is why they are called the Imperfect Gods, or non-Sacred Planets. But within the greater scheme of Solar Evolution, all Planetary Spirits are evolving - on a much higher turn of the spiral than Humanity, yes, but it's the same spiral. Probably we will revisit our current phase of both material and spiritual evolution several times before we reach the level of a Planetary Logos ... but our future is somewhat obscured if we attempt to immediately penetrate to ultimate outcomes or exact conditions. This is because we choose - both individually and as a race - how rapidly, and how well, to proceed. And right now, we are choosing abysmally.

I think there is hope, because as a believer in the continuing rise and fall of continents, as civilizations, I'd say we can learn a lot from the fate of our two prior major root races. The Lemurians left us quite a testimony of their progress and accomplishments, although anthropologists and historians are all but blind to the message. Easter Island is probably not acknowledged by most scholars for its true age and origins, just as the Sphinx and Pyramids of the Atlanteans are gauged at being less than 1/50th of their actual ages ... and their trifold purpose is almost completely undiscovered. Certainly the Giza Pyramids were not tombs, but this is up to the intuition of the individual to ascertain, obvious as it may seem upon reflection.

If Atlantis' fate was the Great Deluge, as all world relgions faithfully record, then what will be the fate of the Aryas? Will we be wise enough (`Arya' means sage) to choose survival on a greater scale than the Atlanteans? Or will we insist that Planetary Karma visit itself upon us violently and relentlessly? Some understand that we are undergoing a cleansing and a purging at this exact moment, and some even recognize this as Armageddon. That this is the end of life as we have known it - especially here in America with our excess and our selfishness - is certain. And yet sadly, there are those who would fight to the bitter end - even destroying our sacred globe, or stopping at nothing to exploit her resources for vanity, selfish gain, and regardless of the cost to others in suffering. Even the destruction of entire civilizations - artforms and culture - means nothing to these greedy hatemongers. But it has become dangerous to speak the truth anymore. What a sad day ...

I do not think the planet will permit our offenses, but not because Gaia, per se, will intervene ... and certainly not with wrath or vengeance. These are human emotions and mean nothing in connection with an entity vastly beyond us in scale of evolution. It is simply a matter of immutable Law, applying as this does to ALL of Manifestation - including the Planetary Logos, and not just the lesser lives found therein. The lawlessness and apparent chaos that now prevail will be conquered as we move into the very next stages of our evolution upon this planet ... and as we assist in making the Earth a Sacred rather than a non-sacred Planet. Some Teachers assert that this transition is actually a fait accompli, esoterically speaking - if we could but realize it in our outer awareness. The ramifications are well worth considering ...

And now, my time & space are up, before I've said anything at all.

Peace ... Namaskar,

andrew

[_Z_]

T E,



I like the ‘gravity’ idea, I suppose Einstien was a vehicle for a vision that would affect humanity as much as many religious leaders.



Blind speculation. Hmm, as a ‘seer’ I would contest this! Lol

I think it is simply the case that words [or formulas and theories etc.] cannot define the more subtle natures of existence! All we can do is envelope it in a logical educated and spiritually inspired way. This is good as it always remains philosophically open!

Its like God/Universal Spirit/Purpose gave us a 1000 billion piece jigsaw of a plate of baked beans, said good luck and walked away chuckling

Yep, and he was thinking; I am the greatest anarchist in existence, not only can you not stick a label on me you cannot define me!

in all my swings at the faulty anthropocentrism inherant in the worlds religeons I have gone and outdone them all

ha yea. But I don’t see it as ‘god’ this notion implies edges [one – dualistically opposed to the multiple], I see what you mean though – it is more like an inner 'force' is with us! similar to the humanative as ‘driving’ our line of evolution and as a universal principle we see humanness in animals etc. so our anthropomorphic view has relevance, as with any perspective it should be balanced with its opposite and universal functions of the thought processes, that the big picture be seen.

ruminant sedately masticating its way through the evolutionary processes

I liked that! Remember ‘IT’ is what is on the surface as well as that which lies below, ultimately we may not draw lines betwixt the dichotomy [that makes a given duad a dichotomy to begin with]. As like light [as a photon] ‘knows where its is going’, the resultant nature of a thing [humanity e.g.] gravitates evolution towards it – as they are of each other on the same line so to say.



Z

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

lol...the wit !!....the wit!!
I dont mean a spiritual revelation.......more that we have all the data from a scientific perspective but we are missing the point somehow

yah. maybe the point we are missing is it does not matter how we got here & what matters is what we do with what we know & what we have at the moment to stay on track. unforutnately, many people do not have Gaia in their best interest. i see all the arguing people do trying to 'prove this & prove that, facts & stats & polls... different theories in science the same way people argue over religious dogma. people THINK we have all the data.

when ya hear certain things repeated enough in certain circles, people start to believe & sing what we hear & read, then things like (new research suggests) become a fact, but may not always be a fact. (not saying that is always a bad thing),
there are more questions than answers in this life. dont you agree?

any rate, i am enjoying the thread & i see some possiblities i did not think of before.

[Tao_Equus]

Thank you once more Andrew for another inspirational post.

I had never contemplated Mans social structures, from family to global institution, in the context of Gaia but now that you have pointed it out to me I have to agree thats these flocculations are indeed further layers of complexity and purpose within the living whole. You make note of several groups concerned with social welfare, spirituality, governance, media and the arts and they are all valid 'layers' of said complexity each serving a purpose within the wider picture. But as I was reading it struck me that what was under my nose, my computer, embraces, links and unifies all of these fields on my desktop. And on yours. And on many many million more desktops across the planet. The 'brain cell' individual now has a superfast neural network with which to communicate, and if you take the recent population explosion, a vastly expanded neural capacity. In terms of evolution a radicly new species is emerging.
Nobody thought up the internet to be what it is already and that seems to be the case with so many pivotal discoveries/inventions. I saw elswhere on the forum, sorry I cant recall where, the concept of synchronicity in discovery. As for instance Darwin publishing 'origin of species' because he learned that another man, Alfred Russel Wallace, was about to publish his own essentially identical theory. There are many many instances of ideas popping up in more than one place at the same time. As though they were everywhere in the 'ether' waiting to be grasped. This phenomenon does not appear to be confined to man either. Experiments on rats show that the first rat ever to do a particular maze is somehow able to transfer its knowledge of the learned successful route to other rats even when separated by an ocean. Its like the first rat floats the idea to be picked up by all others. This 'morphic resonance' as I believe it is called is very easy to accept at face value if you accept Gaia as an entity. And further can be held up as evidence to support the theory that Gaia is a living thinking organism in its own right, with its own agenda on which our every action is unconciously focused.
We are the first 'global generation'. As Z asked recently what will we be in 1000 or a million years? Or wont we make it another 100? Maybe in embracing the concept of Gaia we cannot only draw comfort that we are under the wing of an entity/God much greater than us, and that is guiding us to a better future, but put aside our spiritual/ cultural predjuidices and see how interrelated our common purpose is. Or perhaps thats foolish romanticism and that the dynamics of greed, 'at any price' ambition and selfishness are a vital part of the plan. I prefer to be a romantic.

The last part of your post deals with ancient advanced civilisation, a subject on which I have to admit is something I have read next to nothing. Feel free though to post or email me some links on it.

Thanks again for your input

Regards

TE

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Z

I like the ‘gravity’ idea, I suppose Einstien was a vehicle for a vision that would affect humanity as much as many religious leaders.

Yeh not all positive either, nuclear armagedon springs to mind.

Blind speculation. Hmm, as a ‘seer’ I would contest this! Lol

Well I think thats a good self-belief, if you dont believe your going to see something you prabably wont. And can you email me saturdays lottery numbers asap

I think it is simply the case that words [or formulas and theories etc.] cannot define the more subtle natures of existence! All we can do is envelope it in a logical educated and spiritually inspired way. This is good as it always remains philosophically open!

Couldnt agree more.

Yep, and he was thinking; I am the greatest anarchist in existence, not only can you not stick a label on me you cannot define me!

lol yeh, wonder if we can perseuade the pope he should really be wearing tartan bondage trousers, doc martins and a t-shirt with a big circled A on it.

ha yea. But I don’t see it as ‘god’ this notion implies edges [one – dualistically opposed to the multiple], I see what you mean though – it is more like an inner 'force' is with us! similar to the humanative as ‘driving’ our line of evolution and as a universal principle we see humanness in animals etc. so our anthropomorphic view has relevance, as with any perspective it should be balanced with its opposite and universal functions of the thought processes, that the big picture be seen.

This thread has forced me to see our anthropic projectionism a lot less cynicly.






I am kind of dissapointed that I have not seen more members representing their given faiths posting here telling how Gaia relates to their beliefs. I think there is huge potential to embrace what we are learning into most extant religeons. But none the less you and the others that have posted are helping me in thinking through what I have long pondered with new avenues of thought being opened for me. Thx


Regards

TE

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Bandit

yah. maybe the point we are missing is it does not matter how we got here & what matters is what we do with what we know & what we have at the moment to stay on track. unforutnately, many people do not have Gaia in their best interest. i see all the arguing people do trying to 'prove this & prove that, facts & stats & polls... different theories in science the same way people argue over religious dogma. people THINK we have all the data.

Lol....ok u got me.... I plead guilty your honour But also I cant sit back and see extremist, insular viewpoints disseminate disinformation without challenge. Maybe I'm wrong, I dont know, but I have to follow my instinct because thats what works for me. I have two cast iron certainties in life - taxes and death - everything else is subject to constant review.
,

there are more questions than answers in this life. dont you agree?

Yes I do, wholeheartedly. Isnt it fun!!!

Regards

TE

[_Z_]

T E



Can Gaia be expanded on a universal level do you think? I mean that I would consider it so that the sub-quantum mind/spirit is also like a living organism. In my mind we cannot separate life, thought and mind in/as Ether. Although only animals and plants are considered to be alive, when they are formed in the womb, they are composed of the same essential element as all things, it is then this essential ‘universal base’ that contains the essential ingredients of life, spirit and mind [considered as one]. Thence even inanimate objects have it innately within them – as any seer will tell you.

Again I know all of this can be seen as blind speculation, [you will be sorry you said that ] yet its logic stands if there is such a thing as universal spirit/mind/being, if there is not then it is meaningless! The way I see things is; death is either terminal or we continue, again if the latter is true then the logic stands. We may not be able to prove anything – which I am very glad of! – Yet I feel that humanity has arrived at a point where we can use science and logic [etc.] as a basis for our understanding [at least its approach] as opposed to myths and stories. It is ours then to explore this new world!

Wonder if we can persuade the pope he should really be wearing tartan bondage trousers, doc martins and a t-shirt with a big circled A on it

That is just how I dressed as a teenager; the pope is the false prophet I say!

I am kind of dissapointed that I have not seen more members representing their given faiths posting here telling how Gaia relates to their beliefs

Yes it would be great if the forum had a main section, that all would go there in the main – or if people would venture out of their sub-sections a little more.



Great thread all the same, the merging of ideas is always good to see – imagine what we will be writing about in a year’s time! Keep on the positive line I say, don’t be halted from advancement by labelling things off as anthropomorphic or un-provable.



Respect


bandit hi, i am reading your post too btw.

Z

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Z

Can Gaia be expanded on a universal level do you think? I mean that I would consider it so that the sub-quantum mind/spirit is also like a living organism. In my mind we cannot separate life, thought and mind in/as Ether. Although only animals and plants are considered to be alive, when they are formed in the womb, they are composed of the same essential element as all things, it is then this essential ‘universal base’ that contains the essential ingredients of life, spirit and mind [considered as one]. Thence even inanimate objects have it innately within them – as any seer will tell you.

Again I know all of this can be seen as blind speculation, [you will be sorry you said that ] yet its logic stands if there is such a thing as universal spirit/mind/being, if there is not then it is meaningless! The way I see things is; death is either terminal or we continue, again if the latter is true then the logic stands. We may not be able to prove anything – which I am very glad of! – Yet I feel that humanity has arrived at a point where we can use science and logic [etc.] as a basis for our understanding [at least its approach] as opposed to myths and stories. It is ours then to explore this new world!

I see no reason to limit the principles of the theory of Gaia to either the organic nor to Earth. The reason, perhaps, that it has developed the way it has here on Earth is entirely due to the optimum conditions being present on a planet of this size at this distance from our type of star. Conditions that Gaia has enhanced and maintained. If conditions had been different, (available raw materials, temperature, plantery mass etc), then, IMHO, I think life to be so pernicious a force that it would find other methods of expression. But that said it is these optimum conditions that really bring life to life. If life exists, for example, on Mars, or Europa or Titan, then all its functions as we know them would be much simpler and slower. But thats organic life.
Inorganic mineral or chemical life may also exist, and who knows may have evolved to quite a high degree. Many ancient cultures ascribe divinity and prescence to inanimate forms such as mountains, the planets or the sun and who knows if their way of 'tuning in' catches things we miss. I think that what unites every molecule together though is its energy. Energy is in everything. I think you made an unintentional error in saying 'sub-quantum', (although infinty says there must be a sub-quantum and a sub sub-quantum and so on). On a quantum level however it increasingly is becoming apparent that time and location are no hinderence to communication, instant communication. If every atom has the capability to use the quantum matrix to communicate then perhaps yes the whole universe is alive. That would be very similair to how we percieve Gaia. Incidently I believe the Singapore stock exchange is already using the worlds first quantum communication system, if anyones interested just say so and i'l dig out my back issues of new scientist for details.
As to your touching on death, that too is an interesting one to fit into Gaia theory and indeed the true nature of time. We all have a unique life experience but very very few of us have ever done anything unique. As each of us lives only from moment to moment what we call 'self' is really but a collection of memories. As a part of Gaia perhaps these memories continue on so infact all we lose at death is future moments. Most of us have passed on our genetic heritage by that point and live on in that way too. Our life force is an energy and it is absorbed back into the greater whole. One of the reasons I dont want to be cremated - yes I want to be worm food. And anyway if the nature of time is really as physics describes then we are imortal.
Most of all I agree with you that its time for humanity to put behind it the fairy stories of our collective childhood and start trying to understand the truth. I recognise that many of these, like childrens fairy tales, were important moral allegory's to teach us basic values. But we are maturing now and are ready to delve into the hard core text books. Some great Sages still have much guidance to give us but we should always seek out new paths and expand as we can into the infinite.

Keep on the positive line I say, don’t be halted from advancement by labelling things off as anthropomorphic or un-provable.

lol......thx........good advice. And I'm not. I think I think a lot as I go along though. I dont have fixed beliefs. Some might think that weak, or even a cop-out, but it works for me and thats all I care about. And unlike some others I am always grateful to be corrected


Kind regards

TE

[_Z_]

Hi T E



I would say energy is a form of spirit.



Once ‘tuned in’, then spirit is seen to be universal and hence in everything. The ancients may have described it differently or even understood it differently [not as universal - probably]. It can be seen in an everyday sense as well as an otherworldly way.

Quantum communication system

I missed that issue of NS, can you post it – and what you think it means! By sub-quantum I did mean infinity in both the form relative to finite existence, and the pure form [perhaps the infinitive – redefined] that cannot be built up to. Then there is the universal spirit that interacts with the quantum, macroscopic and holistic levels of existence. Basically there is an ‘IT’ that is all of everything, I simply use the term spirit or ether because we have no other- which is why I am always defining what I mean by it as I go and relative to the questioning at hand – it tends to change meaning all the time!



As concerns memories at death, from an Egyptian and Z perspective I would say that when we die, we experience a reduction in all of our human facets, as we are reduced to our atom-self. This though is a collection of all of our elements and aspects into our most quantum form – a spiritual singularity if you will [pertaining to the universal principle of singularity]. Then we expand and all of our faculties are reformed – like the phoenix. The memories would perhaps have been wiped though! the Egyptians had funerary rites like ‘the opening of the mouth’ and eyes ceremonies, it was as if they were reuniting the soul with its faculties, or showing the priests how there is a phase where the soul expands into its sahu [soul body of perfection]. So each life is like the unfolding of the thread of you, followed by the folding into the singular – bit like the universe eh!



As for the rest of your post – nicely put!



And yes it is good to be proven wrong, that one may move on in the light of truth!

Z