Gay Marriage

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by wil

And by your notion it is that bible that held together the faith of so many that got us this far as well. It isn't sad, it is different than your belief or mine. If you can't accept hers, how can you expect her to accept yours?

It's the notion of intellectual curiosity, discovery and honesty that I refer to here.

faithfulservant can discuss any matter biblical or philosophical and still maintain some credibility. But even those subjects rarely exist without having some basis in the scientific realm.

But to deny the validity of science while at the same time wallowing in it benefits is either utterly ignorant or hypocritical and calls into question everything else they stand for.

He's a nice guy otherwise. Probably mows his lawn and doesn't have major appliances in his front yard. But intellectually he's bereft.

[wil]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

It's the notion of intellectual curiosity, discovery and honesty that I refer to here.

faithfulservant can discuss any matter biblical or philosophical and still maintain some credibility. But even those subjects rarely exist without having some basis in the scientific realm.

But to deny the validity of science while at the same time wallowing in it benefits is either utterly ignorant or hypocritical and calls into question everything else they stand for.

He's a nice guy otherwise. Probably mows his lawn and doesn't have major appliances in his front yard. But intellectually he's bereft.

First of all Mr. see no evil moniker...she is a she. And if you are living today you are also wallowing in the benefits of religion... again, if you don't provide a little tolerance I sure don't understand why you should expect any.

She holds different beliefs, and as I tell the atheist, Faithful or anyone else, this is an interfaith site...inter and faith being the operative words if you wish to simply live in the world of science you can find plenty of arguments over on another site.

I always find it interesting when folks resort to calling others names and just indicating that they have less brain capacity, as it usually is an indication that one has run out. If you want respect for your science which will be completely changed in 500 years have a little respect for her religion which she has held for 2000 years..

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by wil

First of all Mr. see no evil moniker...

Rushing to her defense, eh?

I think you like her.

I stand by my words.

But I'll get out of the way so you two can get a room.

[wil]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Rushing to her defense, eh?

I think you like her.

I stand by my words.

But I'll get out of the way so you two can get a room.

I do like her, I enjoy conversations with her, I grow in my understanding thru learning understanding more of her beliefs and that of her hubby as well. We disagree all the time, our beliefs are as different as yours and hers. I'd rush to your defense as well, once you decide to be defensable.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Surely there was something even prior to the OT. Marriage in China goes back at least 5000 years.

But, they are after all... Chinese.

So they don't count.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I dont believe in an old earth.. I believe creation was 6 days and Genesis WAS the beginning...literally... and the earth is not millions of years old but a short 10,000 years ago ish of course. So there was no chinese a billion years ago.. They were descendents of Shem .. Dark races descendents of Ham and Caucasions descendents of Japheth and these three repopulated the earth after the flood with their "wives" because they were "married" !!

You can keep her.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Actually wil, I'm looking for a way to give same sex couples equal rights under the law

You do that by simply giving us equal rights under the law.

Originally Posted by seattlegal

without forcing the changing of the original meaning of words or forcing the changing of religious traditions. I wouldn't call that "grasping at straws," by any stretch.

The "original" meaning of the word "marriage" is THE LEGAL INSTITUTION. If you favor granting us equal rights under law, then you favor granting us "marriage". That word belongs to the law, not to the churches: if the churches want a verbal distinction between what the law recognizes and what they themselves recognize, then the churches are free to use words like "wedding" or "matrimony", which are not the words used by the law.
What the goddamned churches do is of no concern to me, as long as they keep it separate from the law. The constitution respects their freedom to teach whatever they believe, and to perform or not perform whatever ceremonies they do or don't want to perform, and I am perfectly content to stay out of their business, if they would just stay out of mine.

[Faithfulservant]

Let me say first off "Wow" and Thank you wil .. Im glad you are my friend

I am so glad you've made this so clear. From anyone else I would take it as sarcasm. From you it allows a deeper understanding of where you are coming from and I can accept that you'll never accept a gay mariage. However it seems I've read in the past that you don't object to homosexuals but you do object to the action. If this is correct it seems to me you are lying to yourself, worth exploring.

I am surprised after these statements however that you have a 10,000 yearish age and don't have the exact figure, and wonder if you do realize the same arguments you are using now were the exact same ones used in this country not so many years ago to convince us that slavery was ok, raical intermarriage was an obomination, and man was never meant to fly...

Ok first off... Im all for them having the same legal rights as a married couple... Marriage to me is holy it is set apart from any other union and it is sanctified by God. By me saying its ok for two of the same sex to be married under God is saying that Me as a person can change what God ordained from the beginning and I cant do that in good conscience. So I say its NOT ok because I have to stand up for the holy thing that is marriage in the eyes of God.

But I repeat... Let them have the same thing in the eyes of the government affording them the same rights etc... I have NO problem with that. They can have a union and do whatever a married couple does as long as its seperate from the church.

And go figure you would be right on the 10,000 ish and no actual number as a way to negate my pov.. :P

Just like Science.. all I can do is go on theory.. and the theory is following the genealogy. You are welcome to google and look it all up if your genuinely curious.. because im really not going to derail the thread THAT much and do it myself... im just going to have to wait for God to tell me himself after Im dead and gone.

As for the last part of your thread.... the slavery.. interacial marriage and man flying has nothing to do biblically with my beliefs.. God never said we couldnt fly he certainly allowed interacial marriage and slavery was definitely a cultural thing and God never said everyone should own slaves. We cannot confuse what Man does with what God does... we make the messes ourselves and God always seems to get the blame.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

You can keep her.

That was rude and I will hazard a guess that you wont last long around here.. Sorry but its the way the cookie crumbles around here . I will continue to flabbergast you with my "ignorant prehistoric" beliefs and your insults will become more and more obvious and you will become alot more intolerant of my faith and brian will escort you out the door. .

Ive seen it many many times.

Or you can just accept that it is the reason why this site works is that the ones that last are the ones that accept there are differing beliefs and we discuss these differences.
.
Have a great day

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

That was rude...

It was rude to quote you?




And if I get kicked out, I get kicked out.

It is after all, just a forum.

You have a fine, fine day too.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Ok first off... Im all for them having the same legal rights as a married couple...

That is what is called MARRIAGE.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Marriage to me is holy it is set apart from any other union and it is sanctified by God.

My parents have been married for decades, and no religion has ever had anything to do with it. It is only in the last few years that I have ever heard Christians have the goddamned effrontery to question the legitimacy of my parents' marriage. You DON'T OWN marriage; it is a legal institution that does not require any permission from you.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I have NO problem with that. They can have a union and do whatever a married couple does as long as its seperate from the church.

Again, that is what is called MARRIAGE. If you want a separate word for what your church does, then call it "matrimony" or "wedding" or whatever, but stop interfering with the legal institution of marriage.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

As for the last part of your thread.... the slavery.. interacial marriage and man flying has nothing to do biblically with my beliefs.

Only because you live past the time when Biblical literalists had to admit being WRONG about those things.

[Faithfulservant]

Bob Im sorry this is a personal issue with you I can tell because you are very emotive regarding it. Im trying to explain my views on this and its apparent that people arent willing to accept that my view is valid.

I do not own Marriage .. God does. Thats ALL Im trying to say. If I owned marriage... It would not matter what you did with it..

but because God owns it... its holy and holy means set apart FOR God.

Im done posting on this thread because I do not want to wear out my welcome by being the cause of so much angst!

Take care

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I do not own Marriage .. God does.

Too bad your Gawd's just a figment of your imagination.

It's not a good idea to base civil law on imaginary figures.

I'll bet the Supreme Court agrees with me very, very soon.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Bob Im sorry this is a personal issue with you

It could not possibly be more personal.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

its apparent that people arent willing to accept that my view is valid.

Because it isn't.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I do not own Marriage .. God does. Thats ALL Im trying to say.

No. THE LAW owns "marriage". People who have no belief whatsoever in any kind of "God" are equally entitled to get married, and always were, until Christians of your kind started insisting that belief in God was essential to marriage.
If you have your private religious ceremonies, to which God is essential, fine, more power to you. But that is different from the legal institution of marriage, which is open to all. If you don't want the religious institution confused with the purely legal institution, then stop using the word "marriage" for your religious ceremonies: call them "matrimony" or "weddings" or whatever, but get your nose out of other people's business.

[citizenzen]

Oh, I like Bob very very much.

And he's more polite than me.

Manners will get you far in this world.

I don't expect to get too far in this world.