Gender Identity in Religion

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Hey, Netti-Netti, perhaps you could come up with a better example for c0de's strawman argument about homosexuality not serving a function in society, then? (You gave one on the 'group sport' perspective, how about a realistic one from the individual perspective?) Perhaps you could come up with an example of how heterosexuality serves a function in society?

Homosexuality is a net positive in achieving ZPG.

Chris

[c0de]

@ Seattlegal + China Cat


Seattlegal

Are you kidding? I save the dark chocolate for eating, not for chucking.

Then my interests here... have suddenly vanished.

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Do you mean you were consciously setting it up as a strawman argument? (Well, at least you are admitting it.)

Once again... it wasn't an argument.



China Cat

Homosexuality is a net positive in achieving ZPG.

Hi Chris,

Yea... that is a valid functional use for homosexuality.
However, it would only be a benefit to the countries in which
over population is a problem.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by c0de

@ Seattlegal + China Cat


Seattlegal

Then my interests here... have suddenly vanished.



Once again... it wasn't an argument.

Here you go, c0de. Happy Halloween.

[c0de]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Here you go, c0de. Happy Halloween.

Chocolate fixes all

[Tao_Equus]

One of my old arguments in the gay debate used to be there is nothing to worry about as they are an evolutionary dead end. That they would disappear in time anyway so why make a fuss. But, and this is speculation not cut and dried knowledge, is that they do serve an evolutionary function. To some degree reading up on the aforementioned "Twins study" increased my respect for the idea too.

Non-standard gender identity is not going to die out because gay people cannot breed. Gender identity, it seems, is determined in utero at a very early stage of embryo development and is caused by the cocktail of hormones released by the mother. So what is the evolutionary advantage from being gay? For female on female this is hard to define, but for males..

I think that there are a few. Women like gay men. Other men see them as less of a threat as a breeding competitor. And they enjoy a higher level of promiscuity than straight men. The male of the species is an opportunist creature and even gay men will play the field outside of their gender preference. So in essence this is a highly advantageous niche that maximises breeding potential.

Yes you do get gay men that cannot abide the thought of being with a woman. But they are a minority. For very many of them that are highly gregarious opportunism is the rule and they offer to a woman several advantages over straight men, especially to married women. And we have to remember that 1 in 10 children are not fathered by their assumed fathers.

It may seem insignificant in terms of overall numbers but niche's are always filled, such is the nature of biological evolution. They will always exist and exploit and this evolutionary advantage will continue to thrive. And womankind, on the unconscious, genetic level, know this too and so will continue to produce them.

tao

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

One of my old arguments in the gay debate used to be there is nothing to worry about

Who's worried?

as they are an evolutionary dead end. That they would disappear in time anyway so why make a fuss.

I have to say I find this a bit of an odd notion, Tao.

"No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. "

—Petter Bøckman

List of mammals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

s.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Who's worried?


I have to say I find this a bit of an odd notion, Tao.

"No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. "

—Petter Bøckman

List of mammals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

s.

lol Snoopy, as I said it was an argument I "used" to make, and it was said more in jest than seriousness. Like many men I, before I actually gave it any serious consideration, used to find homosexuality unnatural and bizarre and yes, threatening. I am happy to say that some thinking and reading on the subject changed my opinion even though the idea of man on man sex still makes me gag.

tao

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

lol Snoopy, as I said it was an argument I "used" to make, and it was said more in jest than seriousness. Like many men I, before I actually gave it any serious consideration, used to find homosexuality unnatural and bizarre and yes, threatening. I am happy to say that some thinking and reading on the subject changed my opinion even though the idea of man on man sex still makes me gag.

tao

That's nice to hear then I think (the "used to" bit).

I know what you mean about the gag. Anatomically it is obviously the wrong item in the wrong place but then some men and women engage in such activity...

I'm sure that we are born with our sexuality, we do not make a conscious choice at some point as to which gender to "fancy". Given society's general antagonism towards homosexuality who would actively choose it?
It happens that some gay people are not at all comfortable with their sexuality.

s.

[Dream]

Tao, for you I think this discussion is actually about church and state so the discussion about gays is really beating around the bush when the fox is already out. Its an interesting discussion, though. Gays make people think and are usually forced to become socially innovative. Its one of those live or die situations, so those who survive are society changers.

From a tactical religious perspective, homosexuality is a product of society rather than of an individual's personal choices. In other words the presence of homosexuality should cause religious people to become more socially conscious. If they feel it is wrong and if someone is to blame it should be those that consider themselves responsible for the community's welfare. I suspect that can be argued from most religious texts.

[nightsoul]

Eeeeesh.

First off, the term "gender identity" is being used incorrectly here. Gender identity refers to one's own sense of being male or female, in the psychological sense, as opposed to the physical. It was originally used in reference to gender reassignment surgery.

It is not the same as "sexual orientation," which is the term i think most people posting in this thread mean to use. Sexual orientation refers to one's preference of sex partner.

It is simply not true that all or most lesbian women feel themselves to be or want in any way to be male, nor that gay men feel themselves to be psychologically or emotionally female/want to be female.


Another unspoken notion muddying the waters here is that of "gender roles," defined as a set of culturally-defined behavioral norms associated particularly with males or females. Religion has a lot to say about this, obviously.

Homosexuality challenges heteronormativity simply by virtue of same-sex attraction. The degree to which a gay person conforms to or defies other gender role expectations, whether out in the social marketplace or within the privacy of the bedroom, is highly individual.


Modern psychology proposes that sexual orientation is a product of both nature and nurture, and that our sexuality is pretty well formed by the age of three years old, at most five. Gays don't "choose" to be gay any more than straight people "choose" to be heterosexual.


And, finally....lots of gay couples have babies, folks. They make their own, and they also adopt children that straight people put up for adoption. Doesn't anyone else here watch The L Word?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I have done a little digging and found two studies on twins. The emergent consensus seems to be that it is not genetics alone but genes do play a role. More it seems to be how hormones effect the genes in the early stages of foetal development in the womb. What is agreed by all researchers is that people are born with disposition.

In one particular case study that was mentioned a pair of identical twins was one gay, one straight. They had been studied from birth and their emerging behaviour patterns set them apart from the very beginning. While they were identical twins this can be misleading. They may share identical genetic information but from the moment they began their separate development in the womb their in utero environment allowed them to recieve different cocktails of hormones. And it seems to be this that influences gender.

I think it can be safe to assume that the identical twins shared the same hormonal environment in the same womb, with each being at the same stage of development when subjected to the same hormonal influences.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I think it can be safe to assume that the identical twins shared the same hormonal environment in the same womb, with each being at the same stage of development when subjected to the same hormonal influences.

You could be forgiven for thinking that, but it is not so. Just as identical twins can, because of nutritional bias, can be pounds different in weight, so their hormonal uptake can be different.

tao

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

You could be forgiven for thinking that, but it is not so. Just as identical twins can, because of nutritional bias, can be pounds different in weight, so their hormonal uptake can be different.

tao

Do you have any studies showing prenatal hormonal uptake differences leading towards sex preference differences in identical twins?

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

They could always form their own factions. Besides, religion has never been void of mavericks. Finally, why not practice the religion your way? Why do people always have to kow-tow to an establishment? Do they have a monopoly on the practice of the religion? What is there to say that these people have more divine illumination than you? (Pardon me, but to hell with these people!) In a post-modern world, is there no room for individuality and spontaneity?

What makes these priests, presbyters and pastors so special? To hell with these people who think they know our religion better than we do. Let every individual be his own creed and denomination.

I agree with you on this. If practicing religion is an individual choice, then it should be an individulas choice to practice that religion without having to submit to a particular "dogmatic" system that is held to be the "right way" to "re-ligion" (bind back to GOD).

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Do you have any studies showing prenatal hormonal uptake differences leading towards sex preference differences in identical twins?

The one you pointed me in the direction of if I remember rightly...... which I am having trouble finding.... but I found this very, almost identical article...
The Science Of Sexual Orientation, Researchers Focus On Twins - CBS News
End of page 3 and page 4 goes into it.

Additionally I found this article that backs up my own speculation on why gay men persist to be born and why they are genetically 'fit'.

How homosexuality may have evolved | Gender bending | The Economist

tao