Genesis 3:24

Cage · 02-20-2007, 12:11 AM

I lean towards heaven being a place on earth, in the now. More than a state of mind, but rather a realization of the paradise we already have...earth is our Eden in my mind. Eden is a heaven, and with the right seat of soul (heart), I believe we can re-enter this paradise now. Even with all the world gone to hell; all we need do is get past that which seperates us from this paradise, and I believe that is something we can achieve in this lifetime. (If we take little thought of tomorrow, and try to work on today.) Perhaps this is where our hearts should be? Maybe by finding heaven in the now, we secure ourselves for the after when/if it comes?

Genesis 3:24

24. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I've struggled with this passage since the first time I read it, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it. I have my own at the moment, but they just came to mind a few minutes ago, so I don't fully know how to explain what I'm thinking. Maybe your views will either validate, or create a better understanding altogether.

James

pfw · 02-20-2007, 02:18 AM

Assuming a non-literal interpritation of the creation/Eden story...
I've often thought it was a metaphore for when humans became concious and 'self aware' rather than a literal 1st man and woman.
Adam (and Eve) would represent the first man or 'tribe' that began the spiritual journey to Judasim and from there Christianity and Islam.
Eating from the tree of knowlwdge represents the first step in understanding 'cause and effect' and that all actions have a consequence-not just good and evil but the beginings of 'society' for want of a better word.
The 'casting out of Eden' could be seen as the final loss of inocence-or as a symbol of the constant struggle mankind has with it's self and spirituality- with Eden representing the 'ideal state' of mind/soul, the world representing- well, the world and all it's distractions, pleasures and pain, and the Cheribims and their swords representing the mental/emotional/spiritual and physical obsticals in our path back to the 'state of Eden'.
That's probably not very well explained but subjects like this require an essay (not less than 10,000 words and it does go towards your final mark...sorry, flash back to my school days) just to start properly explaining what you mean.
I think Im right in saying that, originaly, Judaism didn't have a concept of an afterlife (or at least not a fully formed one at any rate) and that Heaven/Hell were symbolic earthly states of mind/being. If my memory isn't playing tricks I think the idea of a spiritual Heaven etc in the afterlife came at the time of the Babylonian exile. (I can't even remember were I heard or read that so won't vouch for it's accuracy-correct me if it's wrong someone).

Cage · 02-20-2007, 02:36 AM

Your thinking is right along the lines of my own, pfw. Particularly the part about the sword being inner obstacles and self struggle being what casts us out. I don't think we ever left Eden physically, I believe it was metaphorical in that we lost our innocence by allowing sin to enter our reality on a spiritual level. I think spiritual death is the death spoke of by G-d, and I believe that a physical death was already part of the grand design.

Thanks for you thoughts....

James

Quahom1 · 02-20-2007, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage

I lean towards heaven being a place on earth, in the now. More than a state of mind, but rather a realization of the paradise we already have...earth is our Eden in my mind. Eden is a heaven, and with the right seat of soul (heart), I believe we can re-enter this paradise now. Even with all the world gone to hell; all we need do is get past that which seperates us from this paradise, and I believe that is something we can achieve in this lifetime. (If we take little thought of tomorrow, and try to work on today.) Perhaps this is where our hearts should be? Maybe by finding heaven in the now, we secure ourselves for the after when/if it comes?

Genesis 3:24

24. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I've struggled with this passage since the first time I read it, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it. I have my own at the moment, but they just came to mind a few minutes ago, so I don't fully know how to explain what I'm thinking. Maybe your views will either validate, or create a better understanding altogether.

James

Well, Matthew 3: 2 does state that we are to repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...

And Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount" did speak of the blessed in the present tense, and not future imperfect. So maybe you got something there...

v/r

Joshua

Cage · 02-20-2007, 02:57 AM

Joshua, thanks for your input. I've felt like earth was Eden for years, but I could never get past the flaming sword bit, or the part about us being cast out. I was reading Genesis, and I had my thought, lol. Sometimes they stick, and sometimes they don't, but this concept makes almost perfect sense to me.

The only thing I find disturbing about it is-what if this is all there is? Jesus said life eternal, and I don't view him as being a liar. How would this theory become valid in what Jesus taught us about everlasting life?

James

pfw · 02-20-2007, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage

The only thing I find disturbing about it is-what if this is all there is? Jesus said life eternal, and I don't view him as being a liar. How would this theory become valid in what Jesus taught us about everlasting life?

James

Are the two mutualy exclusive? I personaly don't think they are. My personal opinion (and I know no scripture to back it up) is that Christ 'opened the door to Heaven (spiritual afterlife version)' via his sacrifice and, along with the terachings of the OT showed us a way to be 'worthy' of Heaven while still on Earth.
A highly flawed illistration might be your invited to meet the Queen-do you go in the jeans and tee-shirt your wearing or do you change into more formal, appropriate, clothing?
The Queen = God, Heaven
Jeans/teeshirt = physical and spiritual state at the time of the invite (Christs sacrifice)
More formal clothing = at least making an attempt at making yourself a more spiritual and better person and showing God the respect He's due (and yourself the respect your due).

Prober · 02-20-2007, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage

Genesis 3:24

24. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I've struggled with this passage since the first time I read it, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it. I have my own at the moment, but they just came to mind a few minutes ago, so I don't fully know how to explain what I'm thinking. Maybe your views will either validate, or create a better understanding altogether.

James

Funny thought...

If you use Strong's and look up "cherubim" and "flaming", you could interpret this as "He placed...imaginary creatures, and a lightning sword which turned every way...".

Just a thought stimulator - anyone?

Cage · 02-20-2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Funny thought...

If you use Strong's and look up "cherubim" and "flaming", you could interpret this as "He placed...imaginary creatures, and a lightning sword which turned every way...".

Just a thought stimulator - anyone?

I read your post last night, and wasn't sure how to respond, so I thought it over a bit. I'm not sure what the cheribums represent, but the sword represents that which kills us spiritually to me...anger, jealousy, bitterness, envy, lust, etc. all those negatives that keep us from feeling peace within self.

You all know what/who I view G-d to be (Love) and I think the only way to get past the sword is to embrace and surrender to his power. By doing so, we gain access back into the garden (Spiritually). Perhaps, the Ceribum is that which judges out inner state and allows us in once we overcome these types of demons through love? I don't know...I haven't made it there yet, lol! Although, I've gotten a taste in the last few months...

James

Dondi · 02-20-2007, 04:58 PM

You know the other place that has two Cherubim is the Ark of the Covenant, which covers the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies. Only the High Priest is allowed to enter, and only then once a year with much ritual preparation. If the high priest enters in unprepared, he will die. The High Priest entered the Holy of Holies to place blood on the Mercy Seat, offered for the sins of the people.

Inside the Ark of the Covenant are three items: The Ten Commandments on two tablets of stone, Aaron's budding rod (which became a serpent in front of Pharoah), and a jar of Manna, God's provision for food for the Israelites in the wilderness.

The Ten Commandments - The Law of God which we can never keep. It is the standard of perfection of God.

Aaron's Budding Rod - A miracle in itself, for how can a rod bud without any root. Life where there shouldn't be life. I see it as representative of the miracles of God and a reminder of the miracles that set the Israelites free from the bondage of Egypt. It also verifies the priesthood of the Levitic line of Aaron.

Jar of Manna - Bread from Heaven. Constant provision from God to live on.

Why am I mentioning this? Because I think there is corelation between what we see in the Tabernacle and the Holy of Holies being covered by two Cherubim and the Garden of Eden protected by the two Cherubim with flaming swords. The swords represent the Word of God, the Holy Law, which we failed to keep. Just as the Ten Commandments in the Ark prevent us access to the Holy of Holies.

When Christ died, the veil to the Holy of Holies in the Temple was rent, thus providing access to God through Him. Likewise, we have access to the Throne of Grace (Hebrews 4:16). We enter not on our own accord, but by Christ, who tore down the division between us and God.

We can enter Eden again. The kingdom of God is within us, that is we have the means to enter the throne room through grace. The curse of the Law is met in Christ.

Cage · 02-20-2007, 05:25 PM

Awsome post, Dondi!

Christ paved the way, and provided the means by which we "can". If Christ was/is one with G-d, then his sacrifice made availible to us what has been denied us in past times. (Free passage after dying to self, and becoming reborn in Christ Spiritualy.) That's my take...Christ payed the price, and gave to us the means to re-enter the kingdom. (Eden) and all we must do is die like G-d told us we would after eating the fruit of knowledge. We die to our human ways, we die to our carnal nature, we die to our need to harbor resentment, bitterness, jealousy, envy, selfish pride, etc... This is how we get past the flaming sword, imo. (Through Christ and Love) I think it's an ongoing process of becoming, but when we embrace G-d for who he is, and know that Christ died so we we might find home once again, we begin to merge back into the garden a little each day. We prepare ourselves in proper dress. (Clothed by Christ himself) I think that is what pfw was suggesting in his last post? Correct me if I'm wrong, pfw...

Does that make any sense at all, lol. It's very hard for me to explain what I'm thinking at the moment.

Thanks for your input,

James

Prober · 02-21-2007, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Inside the Ark of the Covenant are three items: The Ten Commandments on two tablets of stone, Aaron's budding rod (which became a serpent in front of Pharoah), and a jar of Manna, God's provision for food for the Israelites in the wilderness.

Inside the ark were three items.

2 Chronicles 5:10 describes the ark at the time of its placement in Solomon's temple as being empty save for the two tables of stone.

I always wondered what happened to the other two items.

Did the Philistines think "great - magical stuff. Forget the rocks, though"?

Prober · 02-21-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage

I'm not sure what the cheribums represent, but the sword represents that which kills us spiritually to me...anger, jealousy, bitterness, envy, lust, etc. all those negatives that keep us from feeling peace within self.

If the sword guards the way to the tree of life, mightn't (is mightn't a word?) that mean that to attain to everlasting life, we must give up anger, jealousy, bitterness, etc.?

Another thought...In the Tarot (just using this as an illustration), the Queen of Swords chops off all the unneccessary bits of your thinking in order that you may have right thinking (China or someone correct me if I'm wrong).

What if you put those two thoughts together?

Cage · 02-21-2007, 01:00 AM

Are you suggesting that the flaming sword could be what actually rids us of these spiritual "sins", then? That is my current view, but I would hate to think that only those who have given up these 'spirits' are granted eternal life. I think all who are in the prcess of becoming will enter...both on earth and perhaps in the after.

What is the sword, then?

Prober · 02-21-2007, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage

Are you suggesting that the flaming sword could be what actually rids us of these spiritual "sins", then? That is my current view, but I would hate to think that only those who have given up these 'spirits' are granted eternal life. I think all who are in the prcess of becoming will enter...both on earth and perhaps in the after.

What is the sword, then?

Just a thought in process...

The sword would be correct discernment or right thinking which cuts away unneccessary thoughts of anger, jealousy, etc.

Only those of pure thinking may have eternal life.

Eternal life for those who hang on to anger, jealousy, etc would be hell, continual agony.

Cage · 02-21-2007, 01:44 AM

Would you say that the majority of the people and the majority of thier time on earth, are spent in a virtual hell, then? I think only true surrender to G-d will allow one to rid themselves of these sinful spirits. The wages of sin is death, but we are not always able to control our seat of soul (heart)...only by surrendering to Love can we ever hope to overcome, or die to the carnal man.

I disagree with there being a final destination, tho. I believe that life is a journey of growth, and in heaven, I also believe we will make mistakes and be allowed to learn from them. I'm not sure if we will ever completely rid ourselves of the negatives, but if you're in the process of becoming, then you have the tools to consistantly overcome that which harms you, and it will be those who make the grade, imo.

like you prober, thoughts in process....