Genuine Question To Theists (all faiths)

[wil]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

This is disturbing. I can't imagine things could be so bad over there as people neglecting their education, specially in science.

This is in response to the 'bible belt' having a normative view that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. This just isn't so. What has happenned in the US is what used to be called the silent majority in the 60's and 70's when liberalism was having a heyday with drugs, sex and rock and roll...the alternative lifestyle was in the news and the 'silent majority' the moral majority were a large but fairly quiet mostly shocked at the current events voting block.

Over time, things changed, those that grew up in the 60's and 70's have now aged their way into the status quo and this creationist/litterast thought has become the focal point of the media. Interview 100 in any major city in the bible belt and you won't get a majority belief that the earth is less then 10,000 years old, even amongst the bible thumpers.

Whilst it is such fun to point fingers and chuckle at folks it just isn't so.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by wil

This is in response to the 'bible belt' having a normative view that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. This just isn't so. What has happenned in the US is what used to be called the silent majority in the 60's and 70's when liberalism was having a heyday with drugs, sex and rock and roll...the alternative lifestyle was in the news and the 'silent majority' the moral majority were a large but fairly quiet mostly shocked at the current events voting block.

Over time, things changed, those that grew up in the 60's and 70's have now aged their way into the status quo and this creationist/litterast thought has become the focal point of the media. Interview 100 in any major city in the bible belt and you won't get a majority belief that the earth is less then 10,000 years old, even amongst the bible thumpers.

Whilst it is such fun to point fingers and chuckle at folks it just isn't so.

Maybe so, but it still doesn't dispel my concerns about American education, even if the problem isn't religion.

I heard, several times, from people on another message board (not about religion) that the U.S.A. had what they called "a crappy education system." Large numbers of people were dropping out of secondary school.

It was a shock to hear that about the superpower nation that we call the U.S.A. I decided to investigate, doing a search on the Internet to see what I could find about problems in America's public education system.

There was a range of different theories:

Behaviour of School-Kids

American Public Educational System Problems

Schools Turning Students into Robots

Writing.Com: Problems//American Education System
APC: Education > Articles > American Education Fails Because It Isn’t Education

Private Versus Public

American Education Problems

Students Not Challenged to Reach their Full Potential

Politics: Problems in Education and Society

Teachers Quitting the Educational Profession

Problems Facing American Education

What particularly concerns me are the social problems in American society, school-kids misbehaving themselves and not respecting teachers, the people trying to educate them. How could America, this superpower nation, allow this to happen. What if uneducated Americans become a part of the majority? Will people start disdaining education and thinking that having no education is better than having an education?

What also concerns me is the amount of public and household debt that Americans have accumulated. Again, how could this superpower nation we call the USA allow this to happen? America owes countries around the world trillions of dollars of money. What kind of decadence have fallen on the Americans of today? This is just shameful. Maybe being a superpower nation has made Americans arrogant and complacent.

Where is the dignity and self-respect of the people in this superpower nation? How foolish was it for George W. Bush to go to war and put the country trillions of dollars further into debt and borrow large sums of money from China to fund the war?

and then . . . I also hear that the country is plagued by religious fundamentalism.

Sorry to point fingers, but I am just disappointed with what I am hearing about this "great" country. I hope Barack Obama can fix America's social, economic and political ills. I've just got the impression that it is run by "idiots" and full of idiots.

It's a bit like what this movie seems to be about (see link). America is turning into an idiocracy.

Idiocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Idiocracy is a 2006 American dark comedy directed by Mike Judge, and starring Luke Wilson and Maya Rudolph. The two main characters are taken into a top-secret military hibernation experiment that goes awry, and they awaken 500 years in the future. They discover that the world has degenerated into a dystopia where advertising, commercialism, and cultural anti-intellectualism run rampant and dysgenic pressure has resulted in a uniformly stupid human society.

Despite its lack of a major theatrical release, the film has achieved something of a cult following because of its satire of the “dumbing down” of contemporary society and the breakdown of individual responsibility and consequences.

[wil]

Namaste Salty,

Tis an issue of size. While our education system has its ills, it is largely due to the fact of trying to educate so many millions of children whilst parents and political groups try to control what the system can and can't do. 30 kids in classes and constantly solving lawsuits and admin issues as to what we can and can't teach and how we can and should teach and what discipline can or can't be met out.

My kids are in 10th grade public school, I've got virtually no complaints as to the education they recieve as a result of my tax dollars. Now I can tell you there are plenty of parents that do, but most of them aren't willing to spend time with their children on homework or insuring assignments are completed on time. Now we also as you descibe have social issues with one parent or no parent households...meaning discipline at home and time issues with folks trying to pay rent affects the child at school. These are what increase the drop out rate...it isn't the school at fault as I see it, but parenting is lacking.

We are currently a country that loves to blame others for all our ills. If we can change that and start accepting responsibility many things will change. Obama can't do it, gov't can't fix it, expecting it can is ludicrous.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Hi,

Mind if I throw some questions into the mix?

Hi enlightenment,

By all means, Go ahead

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Okay, as far as we are told, Jesus was a Jew, correct?

Correct, but only in tribal affiliation/decent... regarding the name of his religion; there are two views about it in Islam I think; one is that it was Islam, and the other is that, as we dont know [as it's not mentioned clearly anywhere in the Islamic sources] we dont call it anything other than Jesus' [pbuh] religion or 'shariah' [religious law] or Gods religion at that time... The current religion which the Jews follow and call it 'Judaism' was named after a man named Judah... and Islam regards it as a man-made religion in that, there maybe aspects of the original Torah's teachings in it, yet it has been distorted to the extent that it no longer is within the perimeters of the divine religion

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Now, I am not 'expert' on Islam, but I have been informed that the Koran does recognise him as a prophet, and that he is mentioned many times, in the Koran. Am I right, so far?

Yes indeed...

Originally Posted by enlightenment

While the Koran accepts him as a prophet, they reject the idea that he was the 'son' of god. Right again?

Yup, a hundred percent!

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Now, let us turn to Jews. Like the Muslims they do not recognise Jesus as being the son of god, indeed, did they not pave the way for his demise, based on the fact that he was perpetuating the idea that he was the son of god?

Jesus was infact not perpetuating the idea that he was son of God, but only that he was a Prophet and Messenger of God, or the 'spirit of God', meaning that he was a spirit created by God that belongs to God such as all created beings belong to God [not as a part of God, just like things that belong to man, such as a car etc, is not part of the man]; he was reffered to as the 'spirit of God' as he was the embodiment of spirituality; more than possibly all other Prophets; Allah made him thus for this was needed in his age due the deseases of extreme materialism, and such spirituality was needed to balance that off.

The Jews tried to kill Him, but they couldn't, for Allah [swt] raised him to Himself; so on these two points, I'll have to disagree with you

Originally Posted by enlightenment

But either way, they do reject him as the son of god, am I right?

You sure are

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Now, assuming the above to be true, why do many Christians see Jews as their allies, and not Muslims?

Thanks

Well here's my opinion which I have and will form, based on what I've learnt of truth and reality:

There is only one truth and that is Islam [for even the undistorted versions of Jesus' [pbuh] and moses' [pbuh] religions have been abrogated with the advent of the last and final Messenger who has brought from God the final and most perfected version of Gods religion, which all of mankind are now commanded to Follow], thus everything other than that is falsehood

Now as there is a satan allways whispering evil thoughts to humans..., then if a person is not on the path of Islam, he is being influenced by satan; now ofcourse there is relative good and bad when it comes to the 'astray paths' and some people are more evil than others and some people are relatively good, such as the humanatarians etc, thus being influenced by satan doesn't allways neccasarily mean that a person is craving murder rape and theft, but they can be verry subtley mislead too, such as the satan will make wrong seem right to them...

So basically what I'm trying to say is that, all non-Muslims share one thing in common, and that is that there lives, ideologies, feelings, thoughts, etc, are being influenced by satan, [sorry peeps, dont mean to offend anyone, but only to explain as clearly as possilbe], and this external being [the satan] knows the truth and it's mission is to make people hate and reject the truth and take them to the fire, thus the non-Muslims source of influence will 'naturally' make them averse to Islam... and your answer becomes obvious when we take that into the equation

[enlightenment]

Long and interesting reply, thanks.

One thing.

Islam post dates both Christianity and Judaism by quite some time, right?

What makes you most think that it is absolute truth, ahead of the two others?

Just curious?

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Long and interesting reply, thanks.

One thing.

Islam post dates both Christianity and Judaism by quite some time, right?

What makes you most think that it is absolute truth, ahead of the two others?

Just curious?

Allah [swt] started to reveal His religion to mankind from the time of the first man and Prophet, Adam [as], and this religion underwent some changes [in religious law, but not in essential theolgy] with the advent of some major Prophets [I think I heard that the religion of God got gradually better as time went by, i.e, each new law was better than the previous one's] and this religion got completed and perfected [reached the utmost perfection] during the time of the last and final messenger, Muhamamd [saw];

with the advent of a New major prophet who brought some changes to Gods religion, the old law got abrogated and the people to who'm the Prophet was sent was commanded to follow the new law and Messenger now, thus Muhamamd [saw's] law abrogated all others as he was sent for all of mankind.

Hope that helps

Peace

[enlightenment]

Could Mohammed perform miracles, as Jesus was said to have done?

Do you think the spirit of Mohammed could be living alongside that of other great prophets, such as Jesus, Moses, Buddah?

Do you think they were perhaps ALL messengers of this 'creator'?

[Amica]

Salaam/Hello--

I am a Muslim (but not an islamic scholar) so I will try to answer the best I can. The Holy Qur'an does not give specific timeframes, but it does give description about the creation of the Earth and universes (seven heavens). It gives the impression that the Earth is fairly very old because God (Allah, in Arabic language) states in the Holy Qur'an that the universe and anything inside it, including the Earth, was created within several periods of time (not literal human days).
Then, the Holy Qur'an teaches that there had been 125,000 prophets/messangers of God (I think I got the number correct, but I know it is in the thousands), starting with Adam pbuh ending with Muhammad pbuh. According to the Holy Qur'an, every nation/tribe of a people had a messanger to reveal the Truth to his people so that humanity really has no excuse on the Judgement Day saying that they did not know/they have not been warned or told of the Truth. 125,000 prophets is a large number. Especially if you consider that the Holy Bible tells of some prophets pbut living for hundreds of years. Now, just imagine...

[Amica]

Peace--

To answer your question about why Muslims believe that Islaam is the absolute Truth. It is fairly simple: Islaam literally means submission to God. In that sense, anyone or anything submitting to the will of God, despite the free will (whether you believe it a curse or not), is the way to God is. Submission to Him=belief in Him.
Islam teaches that Jews and Christians received the true Revelation of God from the israelite line of Prophets. The Holy Bible is recognized as the Holy Book, revealed by God. Islam teaches that all believing Christians, Jews, Sabians and Muslims will receive the rewards of Heaven as long as they follow that which is revealed to them. At the same time, in the Holy Qur'an it is stated that not many among the People of the Book (the Followers of the Holy Bible) are following that which is revealed to them, therefore some of them are not submitting to the will of God. God is not revealing anything about recent Muslim generations because according to the islamic teachings, Prophet Muhammad pbuh was the Seal of Prophethood--the last prophet who has warned humanity.
Also, according to the islamic Message, it is taught that Jews and Christians, although receiving the same Message from the line of Isaac, split "just when the Truth was revealed to them." I think this is referring to Jesus (Isaa, in Islam) pbuh because Jews did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus' pbuh mission was brought to unite all the believers towards One God and he was the last prophet from the line of Isaac pbuh. Prophet Muhammad pbuh was from the line of Ishmael. Both sons of Abraham pbuh were promised to become big nations. Indeed they have.
Peace.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Could Mohammed perform miracles, as Jesus was said to have done?

Some of the Messengers were backed up with specific miracles, and the one specific to Muhamamd [saw] is the Quran; the Quran is miraculous in the way it sounds, it's utter perfection, many scientific miralces it contains and the gateway to many oceons of knowledge it has; however Muhamamd [saw] did perform some other miracles too and here is a link that lists some of them:

Islam Guide: Miracles Performed by the Prophet Muhammad

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Do you think the spirit of Mohammed could be living alongside that of other great prophets, such as Jesus, Moses, Buddah?

Not sure where the spirit of muhamamd [saw] is really, but it is said that the Prophets are alive in their graves; the grave iether becomes a meadow of the garden of Paradise or a pit from the hell-fire for the people that abide there, and for the Prophets it's obviously the former; the grave is expanded to as far as the eye can see too and when the Prophet Muhamamd [saw] went on his night journey [a miraculous journey whcih the angel Jibril [as] took him on that included an ascension to the heavens] he is said to have seen the Prophet Moses [pbuh] praying in his grave, thus I think the Prophets may spend time there praying and things like that; in that Journey, the Prophet [saw] lead all the Prophets in prayer too, so you are right that they are all one brotherhood from the same God, but not sure if Bhudda was originally one of those prophets too; if he was then he would have bruoght the same Message of monothiesm, thus the bhuddists of today are far astray from the truth.

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Do you think they were perhaps ALL messengers of this 'creator'?

Yes indeed

And let me just put sister Amica's view into perspective for you from a traditional Islamic point of view, for it may confuse you to hear two different things from two Muslims; here is a link that explains it:

Universal Validity of Religions

Peace

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Amica

Salaam/Hello--

I am a Muslim (but not an islamic scholar) so I will try to answer the best I can. The Holy Qur'an does not give specific timeframes, but it does give description about the creation of the Earth and universes (seven heavens). It gives the impression that the Earth is fairly very old because God (Allah, in Arabic language) states in the Holy Qur'an that the universe and anything inside it, including the Earth, was created within several periods of time (not literal human days).
Then, the Holy Qur'an teaches that there had been 125,000 prophets/messangers of God (I think I got the number correct, but I know it is in the thousands), starting with Adam pbuh ending with Muhammad pbuh. According to the Holy Qur'an, every nation/tribe of a people had a messanger to reveal the Truth to his people so that humanity really has no excuse on the Judgement Day saying that they did not know/they have not been warned or told of the Truth. 125,000 prophets is a large number. Especially if you consider that the Holy Bible tells of some prophets pbut living for hundreds of years. Now, just imagine...

Salamualikum wr wb sister

Sis, I'm no Scholar iether, but AlHamdulillah I did hear about the view on how many prophets were sent...

Not sure how acurate this is though, but basically what I heard is this:

From the Islamic sources it can be opined that iether 124.000 Prophets or 224.000 Prophets were sent alltogether, and just to be on the safe side, we say that 124.000 Prophets were sent, for if someone does some calculations and research one day and comes to the conclusion that 224.000 Prophets have not yet been sent, then he'd be awaiting others to be sent, when Allah tells us that Muhamamd [saw] is the last and final one of them, so just so as that we shut the gates for anyone to go astray in the aforementioned way, we adopt the opinion of the former rather than the latter one

Salam

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by Amica

Salaam/Hello--

I am a Muslim (but not an islamic scholar) so I will try to answer the best I can. The Holy Qur'an does not give specific timeframes, but it does give description about the creation of the Earth and universes (seven heavens). It gives the impression that the Earth is fairly very old because God (Allah, in Arabic language) states in the Holy Qur'an that the universe and anything inside it, including the Earth, was created within several periods of time (not literal human days).
Then, the Holy Qur'an teaches that there had been 125,000 prophets/messangers of God (I think I got the number correct, but I know it is in the thousands), starting with Adam pbuh ending with Muhammad pbuh. According to the Holy Qur'an, every nation/tribe of a people had a messanger to reveal the Truth to his people so that humanity really has no excuse on the Judgement Day saying that they did not know/they have not been warned or told of the Truth. 125,000 prophets is a large number. Especially if you consider that the Holy Bible tells of some prophets pbut living for hundreds of years. Now, just imagine...

It is.

And I had heard that many prophets were mentioned in the Koran.

But why does Mohammed get elevated status over the others?

What did he do that was especially seductive, that the other prophets didn't do?

Thanks

[enlightenment]

If the prophets were all messengers of the same 'creator', has it ever crossed your mind that they are related, that somehow, they share the same bloodline?

Just a thought...

[I, Brian]

Some groups try and play on that - there's an ancient European and Asia tradition that you are nobody unless you have a particularly revered bloodline - the more important you are, the more important that bloodline must be.

The ancient Greeks chose Greek heroes and gods to be related to (cf The Iliad) while the Romans take their pick - when Julius Caesar increased his political standing, it was cynically noted that he had to invent descent from the goddess Venus, as he was not from a particularly distinguished family.

You can see similar at work in Christianity - where despite Yeshua of Nazereth being proclaimed by followers as God upon Earth, they still had to give him an esteemed bloodline! Similar with Islam, in that Mohammed had to be given a descent connected to Abraham.

The bottom line is that there is no need for bloodlines to play a part in a rational manner - and yet because we are social creatures, following social orders, and that traditionally social order has been determined by family standing, then therefore who you are related to is seen as an affirmation of social position - and anyone seen to be speaking for the Divine must therefore claim divine descent!!

[enlightenment]

Hmm...

I was just playing with the idea of a creator that would send many prophets, over various times.

In other words, of a fashion, Jesus, Moses, Buddah, Mohammed, they would all be 'brothers', which means that any in fighting between true followers of those faiths should be real no go.

Hey, have you pondered the idea of a creator sending yet another prophet, to whatever part of the world?

Here is the problem....

People are hard to impress these days.


If he simply claimed to be a son of god, then people would dismiss him as a nut.

If he carried out a few 'miracles', it would be argued that there was some sort of trickery going on

I don't think even the theists themselves would accept another of god's prophets communicating with them, even if he tried to.

I think they would reject him.