Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I have recently discovered that the man who I consider to be my spiritual guide (simply through his writings), Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is in a long running dispute with the Dalai Lama over the exisence of the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden.

Since I have only ever learned from Geshe Kelsang's New Kadampa Tradition, I was unaware that any buddhist schools did not believe in him, but now I find that mine is actually the only school which does!!

In my opinion, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has done more to promote buddhism in the west than anyone else. When I was searching, the only place I found answers was one of his centres, so I respect and follow him and his teachings which I have found to be very true in all aspects of my life.

But I would like to know how other buddhist's feel about Geshe Kelsang and specifically about Dorje Shugden. Some useful links:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...pa/index.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso

[Vajradhara]

When asked to explain the origin of the practice of Dor-je Shuk-den, his followers point to a rather obscure and bloody episode of Tibetan history, the premature death of Trul-ku Drak-ba Gyel-tsen (sprul sku grags pa rgyal mtshan, 1618-1655).

Drak-ba Gyel-tsen was an important Ge-luk lama who was a rival of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Ngak-wang Lo-sang Gya-tso (ngag dbang blo bzang rgya mtsho, )1617-1682).

Drak-ba Gyel-tsen and Ngak-wang Lo-sang Gya-tso were born at a crucial time in the Ge-luk tradition. The tradition had by then survived a protracted civil war with the forces of Tsang (gtsang) backed by some of the other Tibetan Buddhist schools. It had not yet won the war but had begun to establish an alliance with Mongol groups that would allow it to triumph two decades later. Around the same time, two of the most important Ge-luk lamas had died: the fourth Dalai Lama and the second reincarnation of Pen-chen S¯-nam-drak-ba (bsod nams grags pa,) 1478-1554), who was one of the most important Ge-luk teachers during the sixteenth century.

Between the two boys, Ngak-wang Lo-sang Gya-tso was chosen as the Fifth Dalai Lama over Drak-ba Gyel-tsen, who was designated by way of compensation as the third reincarnation of Pen-chen S¯-nam-drak-ba.

This choice did not seem, however, to have resolved the contention between the two lamas, as they remained rivals at the heads of two competing estates known as the "Upper Chamber" (zim khang gong ma) under Drak-ba Gyel-tsen and the "Lower Chamber" (zim khang 'og ma) under the Dalai Lama. During the next two decades, the struggle between the forces of Central Tibet supported by the Mongols of Gushri Khan and the forces of Tsang continued, gradually turning to the advantage of the former party. Due to his connection with the Mongols, which had been established by the Third Dalai Lama and reinforced by the Fourth, the Fifth Dalai Lama and his party were able to establish their supremacy. In 1642, the Fifth Dalai Lama became the ruler of Tibet and entrusted the actual running of the state to his prime minister, S¯-nam Ch¯-pel (bsod nams chos 'phal).

This victory, however, still did not eliminate the rivalry between the two lamas and their estates. Very little is known about the events that took place in the next ten years but it seems quite clear that there was a contentious between the two lamas' estates. What is less clear is the reason behind this conflict. Was Drak-ba Gyel-tsen perceived as a focus of the opposition to the rule of the Fifth Dalai Lama and his prime minister within the Ge-luk hierarchy? Was there a personal rivalry between the two lamas? Or was the main reason for the tension a dispute between Drak-ba Gyel-tsen's family, the Ge-kha-sas, and S¯-nam Ch¯-pel, as a recent work argues?
http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/shugden-origins.html

for those interested...

this is a very recondite subject matter and one which i am loath to speculate much on. suffice it to say that without a very good understanding of Tibetan cultural norms and politics much of the concerns of this matter are nigh inaccessible, in my view.

metta,

~v

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

There were a lot of names there that I didnt recognise so I might have skimmed over something relevant, but I didnt catch how that was the origin of the concept of Dorje Shugden.

Also, I dont know what you mean exactly by the practice of Dorje Shugden, I do not see him as a practice, but as a Buddha in his own right (or perhaps a manifestation of Manjushri) who helps me.

[Vajradhara]

i would suggest a reading of the associated link, sahib.


metta,

~v

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Well, I tried to read it, I got about a third of the way through (all the while thinking that this was not a description of the Dorje Shugden I was taught about) and then I looked at the bottom of the page and realised

This site is maintained and updated by The Office of Tibet, the official agency of His Holiness the Dalai Lama in London

Also, if you go up a level, to http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/ there are many more articles, some very interesting, like the 14th Delai Lama's comments on Dorje Shugden. He and the Tibetan government in exile claim that Dorje Shugden is an Evil Spirit. I was taught by Geshe Kelsang's NKT that he is in fact a Buddha in his own right, and I think there was some suggestion that he is a manifestation of Manjushri.

A part of my regular practice is to make offerings to all the Buddhas and petition their help and blessings, I include Dorje Shugden in this retinue as the Darma Protector who will help provide me with good conditions for spiritual development. I would like to know, does anyone here actually disagree with this practice?

And as for the Delai Lama and Tibetan authorites' position on this matter, what ever happened to believing in what seems right to you?

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Well, I tried to read it, I got about a third of the way through (all the while thinking that this was not a description of the Dorje Shugden I was taught about) and then I looked at the bottom of the page and realised
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please, read the entire article for a scholarly historical perspective on the development of this tradition.

I would like to know, does anyone here actually disagree with this practice?

for my own part, it would depend on the specifics and so forth related to the practice.

And as for the Delai Lama and Tibetan authorites' position on this matter, what ever happened to believing in what seems right to you?

my view is predicated on the Kalama Sutta in this respect.

metta,

~v

[rdwillia]

I will be the first to admit that I may be biased in this case but...

I can only speak from personal experience. I have also been going to NKT meditation classes for about a year now and was really bothered by all that I found on the internet about the Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden issue.

I think you have to go with what you directly see on this topic. I know my teacher to be a kind loving woman and I haven't the slightest doubt that her main goal is to spread the Buddhadharma in it's purest nature. I also have no doubt about Geshe-la and his agenda. I have read several books by Geshe-la and have yet to come accross anything out of the spectrum of basic Buddhist teachings of love compassion and training of the mind. There main emphasis being on increasing bodhichita, the spontaneous desire to become a Buddha.

I view the worship of Dorje Shugden as void of any historical references, being so much later in history. He is a vengeful diety there to help protect us. He is viewed as such and that is that. I have yet to see any of this "secretive", "cultish", behavior I have read so much of lately. It is my opinion that even if the real-life Dorje Shugden was a horrible person he is now remembered differently and not intended to cause harm to anyone in any way, shape or form.

I view the NKT as a perfectly valid and loving tradition of people true to the basic Buddhist teachings. I think you have to use your own experiences in cases like this. All religions and traditions have there politics if you look deep enough. I think in cases like these we just have to look beyond that to what we know to be true.

[samabudhi]

Namo

The whole issue of Shugden and the efficacy of his supplication aside, the point of the matter is that Gyatso has chosen to defy the incumbent authority - HH the Dalai Lama.

It is important to understand how Tantra works and the importance of trust, the unbroken lineage, the guru disciple relationship. If everyone learnt a bit of Buddhism and started their own sect, there would be innumerable interpretations (as there are) and one couldn't discern the true dharma. With a lineage where the student is given the blessings of the guru, the teaching are carried down safely, without being distorted.

Support a renegade, and you endanger the true lineage, yourself, and just confuse people who are new to the subject.

Consider all the cults we've had in the west. They're all propitiated by breakaway egotists from profound lineages in the east where there was no space for their self-indulgence. These cults rarely live past their founding members'.

This all sounds very judgemental from my side....
Personally I know close to nothing about Gyatso or the NKT, but please simply consider the effect you have by supporting deprecated luminaries from cultures you probably know very little about.

Buddha Bless

[_Z_]

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, I read his book ‘the clear light of bliss’ many years ago [an excellent read!], but I did not know of the dispute with the dalai lama. It’s a shame that such a wonderfully open and philosophical religion as Buddhism, can get bogged down in such an earthy state of affairs!



Can one not practice how we wish? As long as we get there eh!



Z

[rdwillia]

Can one not practice how we wish? As long as we get there eh!

Amen Z!

To be completely honest I started following the NKT because they were the only active Buddhist group in my small town. I think it's a horrible shame what has happened between Geshe-la and HH the Dalai Lama. Before I started researching this, I really thought of Buddhism as a politic-free religeon, above such "worldly affairs" as this. What a shame.

I am still very open to intellegent ideas on the subject. I am not so biased as to not be able to take in new ideas. I haven't yet had a chance to read Vajradhara's links either. However, to reply to Samabudhi, and perhaps I misunderstood you but... As I have been told by a nun from the NKT, Geshe-la is from the same lineage as HH and even studied under the same teacher for many years.

Just to inform anyone who might not know. And I profess! I am limited in my knowlege here, and by what I've read... Everything I have read has been from biased sources from both sides of the debate. HH the Dalai Lama condemed the worship of the protector Dorje Shugden. Geshe-la's concern was that the Dalai Lama was breaking the lineage. By HH codeming this practice, he inadvertantly turned the NKT into a cult and a group of suspected terrorists. As I understand it, to the NKT, HH is the one breaking the lineage by no longer recognizing Dorje Shugden as Protector. Geshe-la apparently didn't see a good reason for changing this.

Besides, I have never heard or read a bad thing (written or spoken) about HH from the NKT. Geshe-la has never claimed to be a holy man, but a humble one. All he has done, is ask HH to recall his condemnation. By the way, one of Geshe-la's earlier books, I believe it's Introduction to Buddhism, is prefaced by HH The Dalai Lama, himself.

As previously stated... For me, it all comes down to what you see. I truly believe both Geshe-la and HH are great men, Boddhisatvas and very well might both be Buddhas. Though I am a practicing member of the NKT I still truly believe HH to be a Boddhisatva. As far as I know, so does Geshe-la. They have just had a tragic, unfortunate disagreement.

I don't let these petty things discourage me. I keep my mind as open as possible. The NKT is my only chance to learn the Dharma and I believe they're doing a fine job of teaching it. What does it matter which school or lineage we belong to, as long as what we're doing personally is known to be true in body, speech and mind?

May all who read this truly be blessed

I humbly dedicate the virtues I have collected by attempting to explain this matter with a different perspective so that we might better understand each other, to the great enlightenment of all sentient beings.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Gyatso has chosen to defy the incumbent authority - HH the Dalai Lama.

The Dalai Lama has never had authority over Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as they belong to different traditions. This is like saying that the pope has autority over the mormons. The Dalai lama is not actually even the head of his own school, the Gelug school, which is properly ruled by the Holder of the Throne of Ganden, currently the Venerable Khensur Lungri Namgyel rinpoche.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

It is important to understand how Tantra works

Neither the Gelug nor the New Kadampa traditions are Tantric.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

the unbroken lineage, the guru disciple relationship.
....With a lineage where the student is given the blessings of the guru, the teaching are carried down safely, without being distorted.

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's teaching can be traced back through students and teachers to the time of Atisha and it is the Dalai Lama who is now chosing to change the teaching.

[rdwillia]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

The Dalai Lama has never had authority over Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as they belong to different traditions. This is like saying that the pope has autority over the mormons. The Dalai lama is not actually even the head of his own school, the Gelug school, which is properly ruled by the Holder of the Throne of Ganden, currently the Venerable Khensur Lungri Namgyel rinpoche.


Neither the Gelug nor the New Kadampa traditions are Tantric.


Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's teaching can be traced back through students and teachers to the time of Atisha and it is the Dalai Lama who is now chosing to change the teaching.

Hello ATF,

I was hesitant to return to this topic, but I did, as I just read a good book that goes in to non-biased depth on the tipic at hand ("Prisoners of Shangri-La" By: Donald S. Lopez, Jr.)

To be fair and to clarify, the Dalai Lama is recognized as the leader of Tibetans in exile. Although he no longer holds a proper governmental position he is still concidered the spiritual advisor of most Buddhists.

I'm not sure about the root Gelug/Geluk tradition however, the Kadampa tradition does include Tantric practice. Geshe-la has several Tantric books and holds Tantra empowerments several times a year. Although this is not their sole practice. Although Geshe-la never claims to be, he is seen as the Guru (and the third Buddha) providing the proper lineage.

Also, I agree that it was the Dalai Lama who made the change. Although due to previous historical debates of Dorje Shugden most Buddhist's practice already did not include the practice of this protector. Taken from the above referenced book:

In 1976, the Dalai Lama, on the advice of the Nechung oracle, discouraged the propitiation of Shugden, saying that he personally disapproved of the practice and would prefer that those who were associated with him, either as his disciples or as memebers of his government, not publicly worship Shugden. Contrary to the view of many Geluk monks, the Dalai Lama saw Shugden not as a Buddha and not as the reincarnation of Drakpa Gyaltsen, but as a worldly god, even an evil spirit, whose worship was fomenting sectarianism in the refugee community and thus impeding the cause of Tibetan independence.

Seems to me like there's some, albeit, unintentional hypocracy going on. In the Dalai Lamas attempt to reunite the Buddhist refugee community, it actually worsened the tear.

Once again, I don't think either have intentionally done anything to harm anyone. It's just a shame. If the Dalai Lama's attempts to unite us failed we must attempt to do it on our own. We don't want no trouble... It was a minority of the SSC (Shugden Supporters Community) that were linked to the NKT that seemed to cause the real problem. What a shame... Ciao!

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Ricky,

You are quite right about Tantra, I stand corrected. You are also correct that the Dalai Lama is the leader of the Tibetan Government in Exile, but I maintain my point that he is not technically the spiritual leader of any school of Buddhism.

However, in the last few weeks since starting this thread I have also become deeply disillusioned with Geshe-la.

I have read stories about him allowing only the use of his own books in NKT Dharma centres and thinking back to my first visit, I see that this is true. When I first asked the monk at my local centre what holy texts I could read, he did not point me towards the Tipitaka or the Threefold Lotus or Heart Sutra, instead he sold me copies of eight steps to happiness and the meditation handbook.

He also tells us in "Joyful path to Good Fortune" that friends are a waste of time, I could not disagree more with this attitude.

While I am gratefull to him for building the NKT and giving me access to Buddhism, I no longer feel that the NKT is the right school for me, and I can no longer blindly and whole heartedly support Geshe-la as I have done in the past.

So how do I feel about Dorje Shugden now? I have no idea, I dont know one way or the other, so I will have to remove him from my practice.

Peace
AT5

[_Z_]

awaitingthefifth,

On a tangent then; do we need schools of thought and leaders n all that? Can we not simply meditate upon notions without deification? I say this as I too have recently been at a junction, there i felt i had to obtain a pure philosophical worldview before I could believe in anything - and I think I’ll stay in nowhere, ones mind is not ‘boxed up’ then y’know.


Just thought I would throw these ideas in the mix, as you are somewhat in between things – 'the truth is naked' bla bla…



Z

[rdwillia]

Hello AT5!

*I like AT5 better. It's much more Star-wars-ish*

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

I maintain my point that he is not technically the spiritual leader of any school of Buddhism.

And you are, of course correct here.

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

However, in the last few weeks since starting this thread I have also become deeply disillusioned with Geshe-la.

I'm sorry to hear that. I have been on the verge of dissolusionment myself. Although I don't think that I'm yet deeply dissolusioned as I think he still means well and is a very enlightened being.

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

I have read stories about him allowing only the use of his own books in NKT Dharma centres and thinking back to my first visit, I see that this is true. When I first asked the monk at my local centre what holy texts I could read, he did not point me towards the Tipitaka or the Threefold Lotus or Heart Sutra, instead he sold me copies of eight steps to happiness and the meditation handbook.

I would be lying to say that I have not noticed this myself. However as for outside reading, my teacher has always maintained that we are welcome to read whatever we'd like. That doesn't go for the monastics though. She is 'allowed' to but it's frowned upon. They just feel that Geshe-la's books are all encompassing so why read anything else? I suppose...

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

He also tells us in "Joyful path to Good Fortune" that friends are a waste of time, I could not disagree more with this attitude.

While I am gratefull to him for building the NKT and giving me access to Buddhism, I no longer feel that the NKT is the right school for me, and I can no longer blindly and whole heartedly support Geshe-la as I have done in the past.

I would have to agree on both statements. I doubt you're such an easily swayed person but I sincerely hope that I had nothing to do with your decision. Although I have a strong bond and love for my teacher and our little classes, I do no think that the NKT, as a whole, is the right tradition for me either. I think it's a stepping stone. My little classes and pujas are perfect for me right now. They are my link to the Dharma until such time as I find something else. Although my decision isn't based upon the Geshe-La/Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden issue. My goal is to find something more traditional.

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

So how do I feel about Dorje Shugden now? I have no idea, I dont know one way or the other, so I will have to remove him from my practice.

I have always felt this way about Dorje Shugden. I don't believe that anything can bring harm to someone unless you're open to letting it harm you. I think if your practice is in seeing him as a protector. Then, in a sense, that is what he'll be. But I believe, in the end, it all comes down to the mind and what you believe.

Originally Posted by _Z_

On a tangent then; do we need schools of thought and leaders n all that? Can we not simply meditate upon notions without deification? I say this as I too have recently been at a junction, there i felt i had to obtain a pure philosophical worldview before I could believe in anything - and I think I’ll stay in nowhere, ones mind is not ‘boxed up’ then y’know.

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head there, Z. If I am reading the Sutras and Pali Canon correctly, the last thing on the Buddha's mind was for people to make him a deity, or any others for that matter. In all honestly my deification of the Buddha goes as far as him being a supremely enlightened being who helped to show us the way.

My attraction to Buddhism in the first place, was more for the way people practiced more than anything else. Like you mentioned on a previous post Z, sometimes it starts to remind me of Christianity in the dark ages. I think Buddhism, because it's not a native religion in the west, is practiced (IN GENERAL) by people with a purer intention to truly attempt to acheive the goal. Unfotunately for Christianity and those attempting to practice it purely, it is a more native religion so people are just born that way and don't make much effort. Let me clarify that I know this is not always, but often, true.

Although I, once again, in general, don't agree with organized religion, there is a definite advantage to having a place to go and practice with like-minded people. It makes the whole practice seem much more real than just reading a book.

I was actually raised a mormon... (deep breathe). I'm sure it's not exclusive to the mormons but I can tell you in my little neck of the woods I saw a lot of hypocrisy. People emptying Mountain Dew cans and filling them with beer so the kiddies wouldn't see 'em drinking a brewskie. That really got to me and I wanted to find people making a real effort. That's all!Practice/meditate/pray because you want to, not because you're afraid not to.

Ok, enough tangents... But it ties into the Dorje Shugden debate. Some people are afraid to stop the practice because he is indeed, a wrathfull deity.

~Ricky