Getting rid of pests

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Ryuuko,

yes, the garden is a wealth of knowledge and opportunities to practice

Originally Posted by Ryuuko

Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for the information; I'll read it a bit later, since there's uhhh.. quite a bit to read there and absorb. I'll post my questions a bit later relating to the issue.

indeed take your time.. i'm here all week. don't forget to tip your waitresses and try the soy veal!

Mind you, it's a bit difficult for me to rationalize having pests destroy plants. Such as in the case with your cicadas--I would be terribly upset if a swarm of cicadas came and munched on the trees like they did. My first instinct would be to destroy the ones I can (sorry, but I'm just being honest ). If only one or two showed up, the plant can survive that, but a swarm? I just have a hard time seeing a wonderful plant being destroyed by pests. Oh, the woes of a gardener.

LOL. don't get me wrong, it's not as if i'm happy that all the new growth on the trees is lying in plastic bags now since they just fallen off. however, these things only happen once every 17 years... eh... i'll simply be amazed at the explosion of life

If I can present a similar situation, I also have a family of ants that decided to move into the house some time over the winter. At first, there were only a couple. I'd see them go around, and remembered the Buddha's principle that I should honor all life and not kill the ants. So I let them stay, and went on with my life. No big deal, right? Since then, they've grown in population, and I come back from work at night sometimes and I see that they've built themselves a highway on my kitchen counter. Not only is this unclean, but it's kind of embarrasing when I have company over and they see ants all over the place. The ants are thriving--they're getting food from somewhere and a nice climate, so why wouldn't they? If I don't do anything about it, I may soon have ants all over the house, and have much bigger problems. So what can I do? I put an ant trap, and figure, if they go eat the stuff out of their own free will, then I'm not killing them, or am I?

Yes, the garden IS a wealth of knowledge...

this is a tough one, to be sure. the question i have for you is have you ascertained if they are living in the house or are coming in from outside? if they are living in the house, there is really only two choices that you have.. if they are coming in from outside, you've got a lot of flexibility.

if they are inside, you'll have to find the nest and move the queen, or kill them. if they are outside, well... you can put a barrier down... which is exactly what i did.

i had moved into a house in the inner city of Baltimore during the fall. the next spring, much to my surprise, there was, seemingly, a highway of ants that were coming into the house from the backyard. we created a barrier of dried peppermint and paprika powder to block their access to the house and it worked like a charm.

here's a quick check list of things to do to help resolve the ant issue:

1. Determine why they are entering your property and eliminate the food, water and/or housing that they need to survive.

2. Promptly clean after meals and take all trash out of your home.

3. Move outdoor trash and recycling bins as far from your home as possible.

4. Tightly wrap and store food set out on kitchen counters.

5. Refrigerate all perishable food, especially in the summer, when fruits and vegetables may spoil quickly.

6. Remove pools of standing water. Ants get thirsty too.

7. Seal up cracks. The least toxic method is 100 percent silicon caulk.

8. Sprinkle powdered red chili pepper, paprika, dried peppermint or borax on ant trails, in cracks and near entryways to deter them from moving in.

9. Rid your garden of aphids, whiteflies and mealybugs. These sap-feeding insects excrete "honeydew," a sugary favorite of ants.

10. Spray or paint sticky barriers made out of tanglefoot products on plants and trees. These barriers prevent ants from climbing up stems and trunks to feed.

http://www.ehow.com/how_3791_rid-ants-naturally.html

[Ryuuko]

Namaste Juantoo3!

No, we haven't met, since I'm new to these forums. Thank you for the warm welcome, and I look forward to hearing from you again.

I haven't heard of Chinese gardening techniques before. They seem very interesting and in harmony with the natural cycles of nature. Is there a website you know of that has more information about this? Chickens would love it, since it'd literally be a banquet for them, but I'm not sure if my neighbors would like it as much, given that I live in a townhouse! Who knows though, they might like the occasional free egg!

No, I haven't heard of "teaching water", but it sounds incredibly interesting. What's it about?

Thank you!

[Ryuuko]

Namaste Vajradhara,

What a wealth of information you are! Anything from Aphids to Zen. Thank you though for all these suggestions. When I came back from work one night, when I saw the highway of ants on the kitchen counter, I decided to follow their trail, and they happen to have settled inside the patio door somehow--a place I can't reach. I think they came in with a small tree I had put outside for the summer, and to prevent from it freezing, I took it inside for the winter. That's when everything started...

So I guess my only choice is to kill them... but what are the karmic repercussions? In any case, what makes it ok for me to kill the ants but not for you to kill the cicadas?

They don't seem to be as prolific since I put the ant bait, but I was getting worried for a while about what seemed to be their installation of a traffic light on their "highway". lol!

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, and thank you for the thoughtful reply!

Originally Posted by Ryuuko

I haven't heard of Chinese gardening techniques before. They seem very interesting and in harmony with the natural cycles of nature. Is there a website you know of that has more information about this? Chickens would love it, since it'd literally be a banquet for them, but I'm not sure if my neighbors would like it as much, given that I live in a townhouse! Who knows though, they might like the occasional free egg!

No, I haven't heard of "teaching water", but it sounds incredibly interesting. What's it about?

I am not familiar with any specific sites to direct you to, I have found only bits and pieces here and there. One that stands out in my mind recently was a rice project in SE Asia somewhere, that had been using natural methods for centuries. Some Americans came in with grand visions of teaching the poor peasants how to do things better, and the project failed miserably. The peasants returned to their time honored methods and order was restored.

I forget the details, cheifly because I do not grow rice. But the fields were flooded in timing with the seasonal rains, and drained after harvest and the ceasing of the rains. While the fields were being prepared, farmyard fowl (mostly ducks) were allowed to eat all of the bugs that otherwise would explode in population the following year if left unchecked. The bird guano was an added bonus. It all seemed very natural and organic, but the timing was crucial and geared to the observations of the local Buddhist Monks who kept track of the weather and seasons for centuries.

"Teaching water," according to my geography text from a few semesters back, is a method of terraced farming that reclaims hillsides and makes them arable. The hillside is cut into terraces that are levelled. In one instance I saw where a biennial crop was planted every other terrace and the seed was allowed to flow onto the level beneath it, creating a continuous crop. Where a hill typically sheds water (as it runs downhill), terracing retards the runoff to the farmer's advantage. I have been looking for some time to learn of the details in the terrace construction, such as whether or not retaining walls are required, etc. I am in a very modest way beginning to terrace my yard because of the slope to the property. Since I am not familiar with the details, I am leaving myself some wiggle room at this stage. And I can't afford to have truckloads of soil brought in, so most of it to this point is recycled yard waste, basically an overgrown mulch pile that I am attempting to give some structure.

I wish you well in your endeavors. I look forward to seeing more of your posts!

[Ryuuko]

Namaste Juantoo!

Thank you for your very informative post. When I was reading it, I couldn't help but think of the rice patties in Japan, where you see fields of "layers". I thought it was really nice to see these in the countryside, which is very different than from our flat Canadian fields.

I wish you well in your endeavors as well! It sounds like you have quite an ambitious one, but it sounds like it's going to be beautiful. You should post some pictures!

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Zenda71!

Originally Posted by Zenda71

My grandfather used to surround his new plants with plants that feeders don't like. (For instance, you can plant marigolds around new plants to give them time to establish before the rabbits find them.)

Thank you for the reminder, it has been awhile!

A VERY good book that deals with interplanting is "Carrots Love Tomatoes" (subtitled: "Secrets of Companion Planting for Successful Gardening") by Louise Riotte. Her book mentions only Horehound as a plant grasshoppers do not like, but Horehound is a large plant with a distinct aroma that can be overwhelming, and it is very invasive. However, she suggests, (besides chickens) attracting songbirds, or cats (although I doubt you can successfully do both on a townhouse balcony). She also suggests a spray made of: 2 to 4 hot peppers, one green pepper and one small onion ground together in a quart of water. Let stand for 24 hours and strain. This is also supposed to be good against aphids. (Two birds with one stone?)

Hope this helps Ryukko.

[samabudhi]

Crickey! You're really serious!

I thought you were about to drop some deep zen concept on all of us, and here we are, busiest thread in the forum, talking about the details of how we're going to catch and drive grasshoppers to the next field.

Anyway, whatever your choice is, just remember that intention is everything, so if you find yourself cornered and left with nothing else to do but exterminate, then remember that your intention was in the right place. Just think how many butterflies day in spawning season on our roads. The fact that they die by my hand, by another, by their own, makes no difference. It is the intention that I have which results in appropriate karma.

Another important point that is often overlooked is that we're supposed to be compassionate to all sentient beings. There is less sentience in a grasshopper than a human, which correlates to the amount of karma they carry. No sentience, no karma. Viruses are chemicals. They are not sentient and it doesn't matter what we do to them, as long as we view them as what they are, non-sentient. This is why wisdom is always coupled with compassion. If you see viruses as sentient, then destroying them will produce unnecessary karma for yourself.

Good luck.

[Ryuuko]

Namaste Samabudhi,

Thank you for your post, and for making me laugh! LOL! Who says I'm not going to drop a deep zen concept? Remember, the greatest lessons are often found in the simplest of things.

"Intention is everything"--that's a key concept. This thread is not necessarily about how to exterminate grasshoppers, but rather, the karmic implications of doing so. I could very well go and buy an insecticide today and wipe out the grasshoppers, but I won't do that. My intention is that they go away and munch on weeds! Why don't they munch on the weeds so I wouldn't have to uproot them? :P

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Ryuuko,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Ryuuko

Namaste Vajradhara,

What a wealth of information you are! Anything from Aphids to Zen.

it's not how much you know.. it's knowing where to find the information when requested as it turns out, i just happen to have had some experiences that are similar to yours.

Thank you though for all these suggestions. When I came back from work one night, when I saw the highway of ants on the kitchen counter, I decided to follow their trail, and they happen to have settled inside the patio door somehow--a place I can't reach. I think they came in with a small tree I had put outside for the summer, and to prevent from it freezing, I took it inside for the winter. That's when everything started...

ah, yes.. the dreaded, indoor/outdoor plant. in my experience, this is going to be problematic at best for you and a downright pain in the buttox in most cases. i had a... oh gosh.. what's it called.. a butternut palm, i think, that was an indoor/outdoor plant. the first spring i put it out, it did great! i thought everything was going very well... i brought it in for the winter and, wouldn't you know it.... all the other indoor plants got some type of sickness and all of them died. eh.. i learned my lesson very directly there. don't do the indoor/outdoor plants unless you can keep them contained.

So I guess my only choice is to kill them... but what are the karmic repercussions? In any case, what makes it ok for me to kill the ants but not for you to kill the cicadas?

hmm.. well... this is actually a much deeper question that it may initially appear and that makes me a bit reluctant to venture too far into this question.. however, i'll say this and we can go from there.

to directly answer your query.. nothing. there is nothing that makes it "ok" for you to kill ants and me not kill cicadids, the two acts carry the same karmic consequences in the sense of taking sentient life and as such, each of us will reap the karmic consequences of our actions. what determines those consequences is the intention or motivation behind our action.

let me use a simple analogy to illustrate this point clearly.

a doctor. if you visit the doctor and complain of an illness the doctor will investigate your complaints and compare it to a list of known symtomps and them make a diagnosis to cure the illness. the treatment for the illness may require amputation of the limb. the doctor is acting out of compassionate concern for your wellbeing, thus, the taking of the limb is a karmically positive action. whereas, for instance, if the doctor was not compassionately concerned about your wellbeing and was, instead, removing the limb with the intention that this surgcial technique would create a famous reputation and wealth, this would be an example of a karmically negative action.

in each case the action, removing of the limb, was the same. it is the intentional motivation of the mind that directly creates the karmic repercussions of our actions.

now.. there is a difference between you and i in this relative state. not to put too fine a point on it, however, you're not a Buddhist this does have an effect on the ripening of karma and the generating of it's seeds, however, this is way beyond the scope of our conversation at this time.

They don't seem to be as prolific since I put the ant bait, but I was getting worried for a while about what seemed to be their installation of a traffic light on their "highway". lol!

good! i think you may want to consider the spray as well.

of course.. you can always try to out smart them! here's a neat trick. create a more inviting place for dinner outside you can put some sugar water, like the "honeydew" the aphids make, which will draw them from the house like it's on fire! then, you can lay down the barrier.. and.. if you play your cards right, you should have little problem with ants.

at my current house, there are probably 6 distinct ant colonies living in the surrounding garden and flower beds. proper disposal and clean up after food prep is first and foremost

[Ryuuko]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

in each case the action, removing of the limb, was the same. it is the intentional motivation of the mind that directly creates the karmic repercussions of our actions.

now.. there is a difference between you and i in this relative state. not to put too fine a point on it, however, you're not a Buddhist this does have an effect on the ripening of karma and the generating of it's seeds, however, this is way beyond the scope of our conversation at this time.

Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for your post. If I understand correctly, if my intention for killing the grasshoppers will generate positive karma for me, since I'm acting out of compassion of the plant?

Also, you mentioned that me being a non-Buddhist has an effect on the ripening of Karma. How can that be? Could you explain that?

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with an outdoor/indoor plant. I was especially careful this fall when it came time for me to bring the plant back inside. I had given it a good soap bath, which usually does the trick with pests, but I was obviously unable to catch them all.

at my current house, there are probably 6 distinct ant colonies living in the surrounding garden and flower beds. proper disposal and clean up after food prep is first and foremost

I don't know... that would make me a bit too antsy (pardon the pun) !

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Ryuuko,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Ryuuko

Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for your post. If I understand correctly, if my intention for killing the grasshoppers will generate positive karma for me, since I'm acting out of compassion of the plant?

whilst this seems to be correct, it is not. this is due to my inability to properly explain this concept, not to a lack of your ability to understand.

plants, being non-sentient beings, do not have karma. the karmic seeds from engaging in actions like cutting down a tree, produce neutral karma. of course, the various creatures that live in said tree are another matter altogether

the main thing to keep in mind, at this point, is that it is your intentional acts towards other sentient beings which produce positive or negative karma, though it's possible to produce neutral karma in these cases, this is not something that normal beings are able to do.

Also, you mentioned that me being a non-Buddhist has an effect on the ripening of Karma. How can that be? Could you explain that?

hmm... actually, this is rather particular to my schools view of things. basically, its like someone that is unaware of the rules and breaks them vs. someone that knows the rules and chooses to break them anyway. whilst the rules have been broken in both cases, the person to whom the rules were well known is typically the person that is reprimanded more severly for breeching the rules.

now.. it is true enough that, even without any understanding of the Buddhadharma, from our view at least, these things happen anyway, as such, even as a non-Buddhist one can experience positive or negative karma and these things will influence the beings rebirth.

if i can use another poor analogy. it's rather like this, if i may. a voodoo doll. let's say you are a child and for some reason, you get a voodoo doll. for you, as a child, it's just a dollie and you'll play with it as the situation warrants. you may even make the doll swim or jump over things or lay in a pool of water or light it on fire. all of which are fun things for kids to do and have no bearing on the doll or the kid playing with it.

the same scenario, however, the child knows what a voodoo doll is and believes that by doing those things, i.e. laying it in water, burning it etc. that those things are happening to someone in a physically real way.

the action of burning the doll is the same in both cases. however, the level of understanding of the two children is vastly different and thus, in our Buddhist discussion, those two beings would reap different karma for that same event predicated on their intention behind the act.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with an outdoor/indoor plant. I was especially careful this fall when it came time for me to bring the plant back inside. I had given it a good soap bath, which usually does the trick with pests, but I was obviously unable to catch them all.

who knew that soap baths would work well? not i.. at least not until the next season it does work very well with diseases though i've not seen as much positive result for dealing with actual crawlies tho.

I don't know... that would make me a bit too antsy (pardon the pun) !

believe me.. this is news as it turns out... Peonies are what are known as "ant flowers". seems that the ants climb into the buds and, as they are trying to get the nectar, cause the bud to open and bloom. i was unaware of this prior to planting a big group of them... you can imagine my surprise when i came out this spring and the entire bed was overrun with ants! i was already trying to figure out what to do about them when my neighbor polietly informed me of the ants.. and that i needed to leave them for the flowers to properly bloom!

as it stands now... there are probably two nests in the Peonie bed.. one in Mollys Garden, one in the Cherry Garden, one in the Russian Sage garden and another one that is either under the driveway or in the timbers that i've used to line the driveway.

now... as it turns out... since all the landscaping has been done.. there are actually quite a few birds and other creatures which are calling the place "home". in particular, there is a hutch of rabbits that lives underneath my neighbors wooden shed. they play havoc on the lillies in the spring time but they are so cute that i'm planting the lillies now just to feed the rabbits! i don't expect any of them to actually bloom again LOL.

[Zenda71]

A technique for discouraging ants is to pour boiling hot water over their chemical trail so they can't find their way back to food. Scrubbing the counters with ammonia would work too, although that's a bit more toxic.

We have three or four species of ant in our yard and every year they attempt to move in. We wait until they disappear, then do the boiling water trick, and they move on. OK, to the garbage cans and compost pile, but at least they're not in the house! (The birds and spiders are enough. )

With metta,
Zenda

[Ryuuko]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

plants, being non-sentient beings, do not have karma. the karmic seeds from engaging in actions like cutting down a tree, produce neutral karma. of course, the various creatures that live in said tree are another matter altogether

the main thing to keep in mind, at this point, is that it is your intentional acts towards other sentient beings which produce positive or negative karma, though it's possible to produce neutral karma in these cases, this is not something that normal beings are able to do.

Namaste Vajradhara,

Thank you for your post. I think it's really great to see all the different experiences we have with nature. I've also had peonies in the past, and yes, they're full of ants, but I didn't know they helped the flowers bloom! We learn something new every day...

The quote above mentions that cutting down a tree produces neutral karma. (I suppose this has to do with Bija Niyama, from what I've been reading on that thread you mentioned earlier today) I don't see how that's possible, since by cutting down the tree you're harming many people including yourself. A person cutting down a tree deprives animals of shelter and oxygen for all of us to breathe. And what about the life force than runs within the tree?

Please bear in mind that this thread began and still is as an exploration of the Buddhist faith. Thank you everyone for your input thus far, and thank you to Brian for having created this website so that we may have the opportunity to learn and grow together as a global family.

[I, Brian]

Aaah! The ants came in the kitchen in force first thing this morning - found the top of an applie cordial bottle and swarmed all over it, replenishing themselves, until my eldest daughter accidentally knocked the bottle over, and they all went into scurrying frenzy!

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Ryuuko,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Ryuuko

Namaste Vajradhara,

The quote above mentions that cutting down a tree produces neutral karma. (I suppose this has to do with Bija Niyama, from what I've been reading on that thread you mentioned earlier today) I don't see how that's possible, since by cutting down the tree you're harming many people including yourself. A person cutting down a tree deprives animals of shelter and oxygen for all of us to breathe. And what about the life force than runs within the tree?

whilst it is true that cutting down a tree produces neutral karma, the other animals and creatures that use that tree as a home or for shelter are effected by your actions. thus, the overall effect, in terms of karma, in the cutting down of a tree are far reaching. i would say that, for the majority of beings, this act would produce negative karma as they are not properly motivated by the wellfare of all sentient beings in their actions.

as the Chinese like to say, the "eye" of this work is that intentions towards other sentient beings are what produce karma in the majority of circumstances.

as for the "life force" in the tree or the universe for that matter, this is a different sort of concern and one which i'm probably not able to discourse on to any degree of satisfaction.

now... let's say, for our discussion, that you cut down a tree because the tree is rotten. then, you replant a new tree to take it's place. is the karmic total in the positive or negative? we cannot say since it is not the act of planting or cutting that creates the karma, it is the intention behind the act.

again, not to put too fine a point on it, however, Karma is something that no regular being can fully comprehend as the ramifications are too vast for us to concieve, the full understanding of Karma is known to those beings that awaken fully, for instance, Buddha Shakyamuni.