Gifts of the Spirit

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I would have to agree. I don't see the emotions of people. I see something behind. Maybe Ruby, you are an empath (wouldn't be so strange nowadays). We say it all the time to those closest to us "I can read you like a book". Only you may not have to be close to somone to "read them".

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Hope this doesn't get too off topic, but the first time I ever heard the word "empath' was on a Star Trek episode entitled, appropriately enough, "The Empath". It was about a mute woman from a race of beings who had the ability to physically heal people by the touch, but by doing so they takes on the sickness or injury of the person she is trying to heal. But her problem was whether or not she was willing to use her gift unselfishly. The aliens who were conducting experiments with her explained that if her planet was to survive, she must be willing to sacrifice herself fully, even if it means she would die in the process. Quite an interesting episode.

But that brings up the point about using our gifts for the betterment of others. Using gifts in an unselfish way. While we should desire the best gifts, we ought to do so not for the sake of gaining the gift itself, but to give of our selfs service to others. Remember what Paul said about speaking the tongues of angels or prophesying. Without love, it is nothing (I Cor 13-1-3).

I've been around some Pentacostal/Charismatic circles where to service was just a wave of confusion, everyone babbling tongues and seemlingly little order. I don't see the benefit of this, especially for the visitors. I tend to think that this sort of thing would drive them away.

That said, I still allow for the possibility for the supernatural Gifts of the Spirit to operate today. I would think it would be more effective on a one on one basis.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

BUT, I myself often experience tongues in the charismatic, second sense. That is, a nonsensical language (except to me, I know what I'm saying) that comes with spiritual ecstasy. I don't think this is a gift of the Spirit, but rather an experience of connecting to God for some people. That is, it isn't for the church, it's for the self. I've noted in my study of religion and culture that many shamanic and mystical traditions include the practice of trancing- of getting into altered states of consciousness in which people experience spiritual ecstasy (feelings of overwhelming connectedness to God and everything, love, joy, peace). This has often been felt by the Christian mystics as well. A common side effect of trancing is to speak in nonsense languages. This happens to me all the time, and it's the same language (if you can call it that) every time. Mostly, I want to sing to God in it, not talk. This is not a gift of tongues, but just part of the ecstatic experience. And, like trance in general, I can choose to bring on this state through various means- for me, meditation, breath work, and dance/music works fine. It's always happened spontaneously every now and then too. I can choose to shift to the altered state or not, but I can't choose the opportunity to do so. That is, I feel what is like an offer, a gateway of my spirit opening up. Then I can choose to shift over to that other state, or not. Kind of like that state when you're falling asleep and starting to dream, but still aware of your surroundings and could choose to wake up. The feeling of trance is great and very euphoric, but as a Christian, I believe it is important to remember that the goal is not just to have that feeling. There is some transformative work that should happen for the self, otherwise there is the danger of becoming addicted to the spiritual high of trance, which I believe can be counterproductive.

I know exactly what you at talking about. I, too, have experienced this estatic joy in my spirit when drawing near to God. The tongues thing is sporatic, it just comes out. Maybe it's tongues, maybe it's not. I have no idea if I'm saying anything intelligable or not. Frankly, I don't care. Nor do I flaunt it (For one, I don't think the Baptist congregation of the church I attend would share in my excitement). I don't even speak it in front of my kids or wife. It is something that happens when I'm alone with God, like in my car or a quiet place. The tongues is not something I seek, but rather I seek a sense of closeness to God. The tongues seems to be just a byproduct of my praise and worship to God. Romans 8:26-27 tells us, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

I'd like to think that that is the Spirit of God helping me to pray for things I'm unaware. And I agree, path of one, that whatever it is that we do in regard to this ought to be transformative. Not just some spiritual cocktail to keep us drunk in the Spirit. I've seen altar calls where people keep coming back week after week with the same kind of problems. If there is no permanent change in the heart, then whatever one might think to gain through tongues is of naught.

[cavalier]

This is in response to the posts of Dondi and path of one, where they write about experiencing "tongues in the charismatic ... sense"

I know that what I am going to write might cause offense to some people. I want to make it clear that this is not my intention. The truth is that I am sceptical that such things are spiritual. I want to explain my scepticism and will wait for your replies that I might better understand.

Back in England a few years ago, I went with my brother and father to watch Liverpool play, I think West Ham (football/soccer). They are both big Liverpool fans, my brother especially. When Liverpool scored everyone jumped up shouting and cheering, I looked around at my brother. He was standing there head back, hands up in the air, kinda like people do in charismatic churches. Not only that but his eyes were closed and he was "speaking in tongues". Everything coming out of his mouth was complete gibberish. I'm sure what he was saying made sense to him, and I know exactly what he was doing, he was singing the praises of Liverpool football club. He was carried away by the group dynamic, his need to feel this emotion, this love for something, this union with something.

I have always felt, but would now genuinely welcome contrary views, that speaking in tongues, in the "charismatic sense", is something very similar to this.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I have always felt, but would now genuinely welcome contrary views, that speaking in tongues, in the "charismatic sense", is something very similar to this.

Cavalier, I consider myself a disinterested third party in this situation, or an outsider looking, because I have never experienced speaking in tongues, nor have I ever seen or heard it except on movies. Like you, I have been very skeptical of it. However, the things Path of One says and what you say of your brother make me a believer that it can happen in a very genuine sense. I suspect that it is not necessarily genuine but that it can be for certain individuals under certain conditions or in situations.

I can also see why you think some people might be offended when you suggest that what your brother was doing is the same thing charismatic Christians do. They, esp. those who cannot do the genuine thing, would not want their "gifts" to be mixed up with something "profane" like sports. But, from a theoretical perspective of one who has a strong tendency to look for underlying patterns of thought or behaviour, it looks for all the world like the root of glossallalia (speaking in tongues) is being connected on the spiritual level to something larger and invisible than the human self. I know a person who did her PhD dissertation on the topic. I might forward your post to her and ask for an opinion.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by cavalier

This is in response to the posts of Dondi and path of one, where they write about experiencing "tongues in the charismatic ... sense"

I know that what I am going to write might cause offense to some people. I want to make it clear that this is not my intention. The truth is that I am sceptical that such things are spiritual. I want to explain my scepticism and will wait for your replies that I might better understand.

Back in England a few years ago, I went with my brother and father to watch Liverpool play, I think West Ham (football/soccer). They are both big Liverpool fans, my brother especially. When Liverpool scored everyone jumped up shouting and cheering, I looked around at my brother. He was standing there head back, hands up in the air, kinda like people do in charismatic churches. Not only that but his eyes were closed and he was "speaking in tongues". Everything coming out of his mouth was complete gibberish. I'm sure what he was saying made sense to him, and I know exactly what he was doing, he was singing the praises of Liverpool football club. He was carried away by the group dynamic, his need to feel this emotion, this love for something, this union with something.

I have always felt, but would now genuinely welcome contrary views, that speaking in tongues, in the "charismatic sense", is something very similar to this.

Is your brother a Christian? But this need to feel this emotion, to love something, thats exactly what I'm talking about. It like trying to express something that cannot be put into words that can be understood. It happens when I'm feeling especially the joy of the Lord.

Now, is there a secular coorelation to this? I dunno. But I don't put much stock in the experience of tongues nor is it a confirmation of God in my life, for the measure I value of the Spirit's change is what kind of life I'm leading that has resulted from my relationship with God. We shall know them by their fruits.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Is your brother a Christian? But this need to feel this emotion, to love something, thats exactly what I'm talking about. It like trying to express something that cannot be put into words that can be understood. It happens when I'm feeling especially the joy of the Lord.

Now, is there a secular coorelation to this? I dunno. But I don't put much stock in the experience of tongues nor is it a confirmation of God in my life, for the measure I value of the Spirit's change is what kind of life I'm leading that has resulted from my relationship with God. We shall know them by their fruits.

Dondi, in order to accept this testimony of your experience of the joy of the Lord, and the fruits of being in the Lord, etc. we would have to know for a fact that God exists. We cannot prove or disprove the existence of God but we can prove or disprove the dynamics of phenomenon produced by large groups. We can also prove or disprove human emotion and what causes it. (I'm a bit out of my depths here because I have not studied pscyhology or sociology but I have read various articles on this topic.) I think we can also prove or disprove phenomenon derived from religious belief. But the actual existence of God or an extra-terrestial deity of whatever sort cannot be proved or disproved. For this reason, it seems to me that we cannot make claims for speaking in tongues being the exclusive domain of Christianity. However, I have absolutely no background knowledge on this topic. I sent Cav's post to the person I mentioned above. It remains to be seen whether she is still at that email address and whether she has time to respond.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Hope this doesn't get too off topic, but the first time I ever heard the word "empath' was on a Star Trek episode entitled, appropriately enough, "The Empath". It was about a mute woman from a race of beings who had the ability to physically heal people by the touch, but by doing so they takes on the sickness or injury of the person she is trying to heal. But her problem was whether or not she was willing to use her gift unselfishly. The aliens who were conducting experiments with her explained that if her planet was to survive, she must be willing to sacrifice herself fully, even if it means she would die in the process. Quite an interesting episode.

But that brings up the point about using our gifts for the betterment of others. Using gifts in an unselfish way. While we should desire the best gifts, we ought to do so not for the sake of gaining the gift itself, but to give of our selfs service to others. Remember what Paul said about speaking the tongues of angels or prophesying. Without love, it is nothing (I Cor 13-1-3).

I've been around some Pentacostal/Charismatic circles where to service was just a wave of confusion, everyone babbling tongues and seemlingly little order. I don't see the benefit of this, especially for the visitors. I tend to think that this sort of thing would drive them away.

That said, I still allow for the possibility for the supernatural Gifts of the Spirit to operate today. I would think it would be more effective on a one on one basis.

Empathy n. is one's ability to recognize and understand the emotion of another. As the states of mind, beliefs, and desires of others are intertwined with their emotions, one with empathy for another may often be able to more effectively divine another's modes of thought and mood. Empathy is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or experiencing the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself, a sort of emotional resonance.

Empath n.

A person who can psychically tune in to the emotional experience of a person, place or animal.
site.lunamyst.com/filelocker/glossary.html
A person who is physically sensitive to the energy around them. It is believed that these people are able to literally feel the energy surrounding them causing physical ailments. Depending on the type of energy an Empath or Sensitive can tell what the intentions of the spirit is
www.geocities.com/longislandparanormalsociety/Definitions_Psychics.html
Empathy is the recognition and understanding of the states of mind, including beliefs, desires and particularly emotions of others. This concept is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes". However, this metaphor is ambiguous concerning whether one imagines actually "being" the other person, with all their beliefs and character traits, or simply being in their situation (such as being the prime minister). ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empath

Discernment n.

Discernment is a process of prayerful reflection which leads a person or community to understanding of God's call at a given time or in particular circumstances of life. It involves listening to God in all the ways God communicates with us: in prayer, in the scriptures, through the Church and the world, in personal experience, and in other people.
www.vocations.ca/What_is_a_vocation/common_terms.php
is the heightened ability to read or hear a teaching, to encounter a problem, or to consider a proposed course of action, and then determine whether the source behind the teaching, problem, or action is divine, merely human, or satanic. This will be a much needed gift near the End of the Age. [Bible Study on Discernment.]
www.acts17-11.com/dictionary_gifts.html
(Fr. Prediliction) - is the twelfth sense which enables you to avoid all things antipathetic and to encounter everything sympathetic. This sense results in the evolution of Intuition.
www.kheper.net/topics/Theon/glossary.html
A spiritual gift through which one discerns the inner states. It is not a sharpness of mind but the energy of the grace of God. It is a gift which pertains to the pure nous. It is mainly the ability to distinguish between uncreated and created things; between the energy of God and the energy of the devil but also between the energies of God and the psychophysical energies of man. Thus, one distinguishes emotional states from spiritual experiences.
www.pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain. 09.htm

In short, one is natural to man's senses, only highly developed. The other is "gifted" to one who otherwise does not have the natural abibity developed.

Many "empaths" use their talent for reasons other than helping others, only that does not diminish their abilities, but it doesn't mean they are God guided either.

The other, being a "God's gift" is to be used to help others, and if abused, can literally dis-appear in an instant.

Thought this might help.

v/r

Q

[Dondi]

Ah, sorry Q. I guess I got confused on terminology. But I appreciate the definitions.

[path_of_one]

Edited- people posted while I was writing. I'm responding to the suggestion that ecstasy can be a result of secular experiences. I think Dondi's response was good, but speaking in tongues as a result of ecstasy is certainly not limited to Christianity. It's actually pretty common cross-culturally.

I don't find the suggestion offensive at all. I think it is very much a result of overwhelming connectedness, a very passionate emotion, for me. When brought about spontaneously, it is not always due to "religious" or even specifically spiritual events/triggers. It may be helpful for me to explain that for me, everything is spiritual. When I'm training my horses, hiking, or other athletic endeavors, I am pushing the limits of my body, I am connecting to the living beings around me, I am aware of the joys of being incarnated in such an amazing form that I can feel wind, rain, etc. The feeling of ecstasy (and associated linguistic stuff) can also arise for me in becoming lost in art or music, even completely secular stuff- because nothing is completely secular for me. A beautiful Monet, the energy of a room full of people listening to rock music... it is all part of the joy of living, the human experience, the energy of being fully alive.

So I suppose I would completely agree that feelings of ecstasy can be brought about by non-spiritual things as well. This is most obvious for people who trance through drugs without appropriate shamanic spiritual guidance. I've never done any sort of drugs myself (in fact, I'm scared by them- the last thing I need is to open up the gateways more! LOL!), but I've talked to plenty of anthropologists who have tried this or that. Many are atheists and still had amazing, mind-opening experiences, a sense of connectedness with everything, joy, love, etc. I think it is a product not of spirituality necessarily, but rather of altering the consciousness, of pushing it outside its normal waking state.

What makes it spiritual is how we use and interpret the experience.

My current theory, based on my experiences:
Trance and ecstasy are just like dreaming... it's just another psychological state. But dreams can be any number of things... expressions of our deepest desires and fears, a jumble of mundane stuff we need to get done (going to get groceries, finishing that project at work)... or incredibly deep and transformative spiritual experiences, visions that impact us for the rest of our lives. Likewise, trance/ecstasy can range from a simple emotional high, disconnected from spirituality, to a profoundly transformative experience.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Dondi, in order to accept this testimony of your experience of the joy of the Lord, and the fruits of being in the Lord, etc. we would have to know for a fact that God exists. We cannot prove or disprove the existence of God but we can prove or disprove the dynamics of phenomenon produced by large groups. We can also prove or disprove human emotion and what causes it. (I'm a bit out of my depths here because I have not studied pscyhology or sociology but I have read various articles on this topic.) I think we can also prove or disprove phenomenon derived from religious belief. But the actual existence of God or an extra-terrestial deity of whatever sort cannot be proved or disproved. For this reason, it seems to me that we cannot make claims for speaking in tongues being the exclusive domain of Christianity. However, I have absolutely no background knowledge on this topic. I sent Cav's post to the person I mentioned above. It remains to be seen whether she is still at that email address and whether she has time to respond.

Which is why I said I don't put too much stock in tongues, I look for changes in my life to confirm my relationship to God. And my relationship to God is not something that I can prove to you nor anyone else, it just is. My own confirmation of God comes from the fact that my life has changed for the better as I've learned to trust in Something I cannot prove objectively. Knowing the Divine is a purely subjective experience based on faith. It's knowing a sense of Love I've never experienced before, and finding an ability to love as a result. If God doesn't exist, then I've lost nothing by believing, rather I've gained more than I'd hoped for, for I've learned to love. The testamony of a changed life, therefore is all I have to offer.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Ah, sorry Q. I guess I got confused on terminology. But I appreciate the definitions.

I should also point out that some people have both, the natural (empathic), and Spiritual (discernment), rolled into one. Can you think of historical figures who might fit this profile?

Right off the bat, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II come to mind...as does Father Martin Luther and Martin Luther King jr...

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Which is why I said I don't put too much stock in tongues, I look for changes in my life to confirm my relationship to God. And my relationship to God is not something that I can prove to you nor anyone else, it just is. My own confirmation of God comes from the fact that my life has changed for the better as I've learned to trust in Something I cannot prove objectively. Knowing the Divine is a purely subjective experience based on faith. It's knowing a sense of Love I've never experienced before, and finding an ability to love as a result. If God doesn't exist, then I've lost nothing by believing, rather I've gained more than I'd hoped for, for I've learned to love. The testamony of a changed life, therefore is all I have to offer.

Which is in and of itself a divine advance of man towards greater understanding of life. To seek what is best for best's sake, as opposed to self for self's sake. Blessed are those who have not seen, but believe...

v/r

Q

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Empathy n. is one's ability to recognize and understand the emotion of another. Empathy is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or experiencing the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself, a sort of emotional resonance.

Empath n.

A person who can psychically tune in to the emotional experience of a person, place or animal.
site.lunamyst.com/filelocker/glossary.html
A person who is physically sensitive to the energy around them. It is believed that these people are able to literally feel the energy surrounding them causing physical ailments. Depending on the type of energy an Empath or Sensitive can tell what the intentions of the spirit is
www.geocities.com/longislandparanormalsociety/Definitions_Psychics.html
Empathy is the recognition and understanding of the states of mind, including beliefs, desires and particularly emotions of others. This concept is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes". However, this metaphor is ambiguous concerning whether one imagines actually "being" the other person, with all their beliefs and character traits, or simply being in their situation (such as being the prime minister). ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empath

Thanks for pulling these definitions together, Q. Very interesting. I'd have to say that for me, empathy is not just being in a similar situation. In fact, I don't have to have ever experienced a similar situation at all to sense another's desires, thoughts, emotions.

It is definitely more a feeling of "being" the other person somehow. This is why it can be incredibly stressful on my own psyche and even body. When someone is depressed, angry, sick, etc. I feel that. It is very easy for me to take on even the subtle things people do- how they speak, move, how their logic works. And yes, I get this stuff from animals and places as well as people. I can get very overwhelmed if there is enough negative stuff going on at once or if I am in close contact with someone who is very unstable mentally. I've been working on learning how to turn it off, to tune it down.

Discernment

n.

Discernment is a process of prayerful reflection which leads a person or community to understanding of God's call at a given time or in particular circumstances of life. It involves listening to God in all the ways God communicates with us: in prayer, in the scriptures, through the Church and the world, in personal experience, and in other people.
www.vocations.ca/What_is_a_vocation/common_terms.php
is the heightened ability to read or hear a teaching, to encounter a problem, or to consider a proposed course of action, and then determine whether the source behind the teaching, problem, or action is divine, merely human, or satanic. This will be a much needed gift near the End of the Age. [Bible Study on Discernment.]
www.acts17-11.com/dictionary_gifts.html

These definitions make sense to me. Though the first definition sounds more like Christian mysticism to me, more of a total spiritual path than a specific gift. The second definition sounds more like spiritual discernment.

(Fr. Prediliction) - is the twelfth sense which enables you to avoid all things antipathetic and to encounter everything sympathetic. This sense results in the evolution of Intuition.
www.kheper.net/topics/Theon/glossary.html

I have to say I don't understand this definition. I guess I should look at the website. What are the first eleven senses? And I guess they're meaning that in discernment you can then avoid everything bad/evil and choose only the things that are good? I would argue that spiritual discernment does not involve into intuition, but rather the other way 'round, with a good dose of the grace of God. That is, all humans have intuition. This can be developed or ignored. Not everyone has spiritual discernment. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

A spiritual gift through which one discerns the inner states. It is not a sharpness of mind but the energy of the grace of God. It is a gift which pertains to the pure nous. It is mainly the ability to distinguish between uncreated and created things; between the energy of God and the energy of the devil but also between the energies of God and the psychophysical energies of man. Thus, one distinguishes emotional states from spiritual experiences.
www.pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain. 09.htm

This makes a lot of sense. Though I'm not sure about the difference between uncreated and created things. As far as I'm concerned, it's all created except for God. Some entities are a whole heck of a lot older and other-worldly than others, but they had a beginning too. As far as I believe, only God exists entirely outside space and time, without beginning or end.

In short, one is natural to man's senses, only highly developed. The other is "gifted" to one who otherwise does not have the natural abibity developed.

Many "empaths" use their talent for reasons other than helping others, only that does not diminish their abilities, but it doesn't mean they are God guided either.

The other, being a "God's gift" is to be used to help others, and if abused, can literally dis-appear in an instant.

Honestly, I can't even imagine how spiritual discernment can be abused, but maybe that's just me. I've never been able to imagine how one could use it to their own benefit, save protection of oneself. I guess someone could use it to connect with those who are dangerous and acting against God (what some would call satanic)...

Empathy is rather useful and can be used to one's own end. This is part of my constant struggle. Like any other gift, like being a good musician or artist, or intellectually gifted, it has the potential to be used to benefit the self. I guess the question is if an action benefits the self at the expense of others or God's will. This speaks to the ambiguity I have about these sorts of gifts and the power one can have from them.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Dondi

It's knowing a sense of Love I've never experienced before, and finding an ability to love as a result. If God doesn't exist, then I've lost nothing by believing, rather I've gained more than I'd hoped for, for I've learned to love. The testamony of a changed life, therefore is all I have to offer.

Thanks for this, Dondi. This is exactly my feeling as well. The journey is one of learning to transcend our self-centeredness and learning to love- completely and passionately. To die to the self, to pour out oneself, that Christ may be born in us. If in no other way, God is real because He exists in this process of transformation.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Thanks for pulling these definitions together, Q. Very interesting. I'd have to say that for me, empathy is not just being in a similar situation. In fact, I don't have to have ever experienced a similar situation at all to sense another's desires, thoughts, emotions.

It is definitely more a feeling of "being" the other person somehow. This is why it can be incredibly stressful on my own psyche and even body. When someone is depressed, angry, sick, etc. I feel that. It is very easy for me to take on even the subtle things people do- how they speak, move, how their logic works. And yes, I get this stuff from animals and places as well as people. I can get very overwhelmed if there is enough negative stuff going on at once or if I am in close contact with someone who is very unstable mentally. I've been working on learning how to turn it off, to tune it down.

[b]

These definitions make sense to me. Though the first definition sounds more like Christian mysticism to me, more of a total spiritual path than a specific gift. The second definition sounds more like spiritual discernment.
[/size]


I have to say I don't understand this definition. I guess I should look at the website. What are the first eleven senses? And I guess they're meaning that in discernment you can then avoid everything bad/evil and choose only the things that are good? I would argue that spiritual discernment does not involve into intuition, but rather the other way 'round, with a good dose of the grace of God. That is, all humans have intuition. This can be developed or ignored. Not everyone has spiritual discernment. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.



This makes a lot of sense. Though I'm not sure about the difference between uncreated and created things. As far as I'm concerned, it's all created except for God. Some entities are a whole heck of a lot older and other-worldly than others, but they had a beginning too. As far as I believe, only God exists entirely outside space and time, without beginning or end.



Honestly, I can't even imagine how spiritual discernment can be abused, but maybe that's just me. I've never been able to imagine how one could use it to their own benefit, save protection of oneself. I guess someone could use it to connect with those who are dangerous and acting against God (what some would call satanic)...

Empathy is rather useful and can be used to one's own end. This is part of my constant struggle. Like any other gift, like being a good musician or artist, or intellectually gifted, it has the potential to be used to benefit the self. I guess the question is if an action benefits the self at the expense of others or God's will. This speaks to the ambiguity I have about these sorts of gifts and the power one can have from them. [/size]

Empathy, like any other talent man has, can be abused, and can get one into serious trouble. Many "schizophrenics" have empathic ablilities. But somewhere along the way, they were not taught to turn it off, or control it...and instead it controls them. (I'm using this as an extreme case).

Others that come to mind are the "fortune tellers", who can't read anything but the person's state of mind, but are quick enough to put two and two together to get a "reading" for the person (and $50.00 from their pocket).

The third type is the one who gets charged and/or drained by others, depending on the company they keep. Most empathics like this are (believe it or not), Pisces (that is born during a certain time of the year under that cellestial sign). In today's terms they are called Phlegmatic or melancholic personalities. If they of one side of the coin (in extremes) they can be overwhelmed (end up brilliant minds in the gutter), and if they are of the other side of the coin (again in extremis), they are considered hard asses, cold, with no feelings at all (which is not true).

Then there are the "sage/sage adepts/apprentices". They have the will and strength of mind to handle the "talent" they are born with. They can control the effects, impulses, and onslaughts of emotional rage from others onto themselves with little damage. They control their own urges and desires. They seek counsel from their "God" to use what they have wisely, and to be guided in its use. And they hold themselves accountable for their own actions (whether or not others perceive those actions).

The Gift of discernment, however is a different matter. It is like life, in that it can be given, and be taken away in an instant. It is not natural, but rather supernatural. There are certain expectations that the "God" has of the recipient of that particular gift. Else, God would not have given that gift to begin with. It is not an advantage (like empathy could be), but rather a burden, or accountable (in specific fashion). Unlike Empathy which can be "invested" in (or strengthened), discernment is given to the recipient "fully developed". That is all you get, and it is enough for God's intention.

Where empathy waxes and wanes, discernment is fixed. You have it or you don't. And unlike empathy, discernment is not something anyone who has, wishes to have more of. That desire is not there. Discernment is a "gift" that has "strings attached". Cut the strings, and lose the gift...

my thoughts so far

v/r

Q