Gifts of the Spirit

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Quahom1, Post 67

Perhaps but scripturally we are warned that even the faithful might be led astray, therefore also scripturally we are told some are provided with the supernatural gift of discerning that which is beyond the normal abilities of man. Now, you don't really have issue with me persee, because I didn't set the standards. You see things one way, and the Bible states it another way.

v/r

Q

Are you taking this from the part I emphasized here in Rev. 2:10?

Rev. 2:10 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Beware, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1996, c1989 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

This is NRSV. In the KJV the word tribulation is used instead of affliction.



**********

According to Matthew it is not possible that the elect are deceived (led astray). Here is the passage; I will highlight the relevant parts:

Matt. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA




Which is correct? How do we know?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Are you taking this from the part I emphasized here in Rev. 2:10?

Rev. 2:10 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Beware, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1996, c1989 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

This is NRSV. In the KJV the word tribulation is used instead of affliction.



**********

According to Matthew it is not possible that the elect are deceived (led astray). Here is the passage; I will highlight the relevant parts:

Matt. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA




Which is correct? How do we know?

They both say the same thing. We shall know suffering for Jesus' sake, and in the second part it states in addition, that if possible, we might be deceived. I see no conflict with the two.

v/r

Q (rhyme)

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

They both say the same thing. We shall know suffering for Jesus' sake, and in the second part it states in addition, that if possible, we might be deceived. I see no conflict with the two.

v/r

Q (rhyme)

Yes, but it's not possible. See below

The difference I see is this: The first implies *IF* you remain faithful to death I will reward you.

There is a condition to be met--that of remaining faithful not for a few days but unto death.

In the second Jesus says *IF* it were possible. This means it's not possible. Not a chance. It is impossible for the elect to be deceived. No condition is required because it's not within the range of possibilities for the faithful not to remain faithful to death. This is God doing the hard work by shortening the time. In the first a great deal depends on the Christian. Major difference.

BTW, this does not come from too much study; it is the understanding I got out of it when I read it as an adolescent. It's very clear if you read closely.

Which is correct and how do we know?

[Quahom1]

Which is correct and how do we know?

Faith...

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Faith...

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Are you saying faith enables a person to discern which Bible verse is the correct one? Would that mean that one does not have to do any thinking on the matter, no textual or gramatical analysis? No weighing of the pros and cons and no sifting of the evidence?

I find this contradicts what you said earlier. Earlier you said that the Bible says such and such. I take this to mean you do read what the Bible actually says and you go by the authority of the text. Now you seem to be saying one goes only by discernment and not at all by the actual text. I find this very confusing.

Can you clarify?

[Quahom1]

Earlier you said that the Bible says such and such.

What such and such?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

The difference I see is this: The first implies *IF* you remain faithful to death I will reward you.

There is a condition to be met--that of remaining faithful not for a few days but unto death.

In the second Jesus says *IF* it were possible. This means it's not possible. Not a chance. It is impossible for the elect to be deceived. No condition is required because it's not within the range of possibilities for the faithful not to remain faithful to death. This is God doing the hard work by shortening the time. In the first a great deal depends on the Christian. Major difference.

BTW, this does not come from too much study; it is the understanding I got out of it when I read it as an adolescent. It's very clear if you read closely.

Which is correct and how do we know?

If you compare 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, you can see how delusion can set in according to "self-deception," if you read the passage carefully. {Those being deceived are setting themselves up as God, so God sends them strong delusion.} You can see where the "Faith" part that Q mentioned comes in--in verses 13-17.

[RubySera_Martin]

Seattlegal, my question is not how deception works. My question is how do people decide which scriptures to take literally?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Seattlegal, my question is not how deception works. My question is how do people decide which scriptures to take literally?

My post provided another scripture to compare to Matt. 24:21-24, which provides evidence that it is possible for the elect to become deceived and fall away. Verses 1-4 of 2 Thessalonians 2 says that Christ will not appear until after this falling away occurs. Compare this with your analysis of Matt 24:

In the second Jesus says *IF* it were possible. This means it's not possible. Not a chance. It is impossible for the elect to be deceived. No condition is required because it's not within the range of possibilities for the faithful not to remain faithful to death. This is God doing the hard work by shortening the time. In the first a great deal depends on the Christian. Major difference.

If you consider both scriptures, you can get a greater understanding of what Jesus said at Matthew 24, without having to jump through metaphorical, allogorical, or literal linguistic hoops, so to speak.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

My post provided another scripture to compare to Matt. 24:21-24, which provides evidence that it is possible for the elect to become deceived and fall away. Verses 1-4 of 2 Thessalonians 2 says that Christ will not appear until after this falling away occurs. Compare this with your analysis of Matt 24:


If you consider both scriptures, you can get a greater understanding of what Jesus said at Matthew 24, without having to jump through metaphorical, allogorical, or literal linguistic hoops, so to speak.

I wish I was so elequent...alas, it not my strong suite.

v/r

Q

[RubySera_Martin]

2 Thes. 2:3:

for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless oneb is revealed, the one destined for destruction.c b Gk the man of lawlessness; other ancient authorities read the man of sin

c Gk the son of destruction

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1996, c1989 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

I think this is what you are referring to. I do not understand this to say that the faithful will be deceived. It will be someone who wasn't real to begin with. That is the simple meaning of the text when you read it without all the fancy stuff you mentioned. How can you make it say anything else?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

2 Thes. 2:3:

for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless oneb is revealed, the one destined for destruction.c b Gk the man of lawlessness; other ancient authorities read the man of sin

c Gk the son of destruction

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1996, c1989 . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

I think this is what you are referring to. I do not understand this to say that the faithful will be deceived. It will be someone who wasn't real to begin with. That is the simple meaning of the text when you read it without all the fancy stuff you mentioned. How can you make it say anything else?

What fancy stuff did I mention? Well, let's go back and look at what Jesus said at Matthew 24. Notice his warning to his disciples, “Take heed that no one deceives you." Also notice his reference to "lawlessness" in verse 11? This is another tie-in with 2 Thess 2, IMHO.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for allthese things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Both Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 support each other in a logically consistant way.

[lunamoth]

This passage does read, to me, that we can be deceived unless we have faith to the very end. The signs Jesus pointed to did not take special discernment; they were as easy to see as flashes of lightning across the sky. The 'false Christs' deceive by performing wonders or showing signs that make us think we can tell using our own understanding whether they are true. But I think the passage says we (any of us) won't have any trouble discerning Christ when He returns; it'll be a no-brainer.

Who are the elect? The ones with faith to the end.

2 c,
lunamoth

PS, Thank you to Seattlegal for posting the big chunk of Matt 24--it was helpful for me to reflect upon this passage tonight.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

This passage does read, to me, that we can be deceived unless we have faith to the very end. The signs Jesus pointed to did not take special discernment; they were as easy to see as flashes of lightning across the sky. The 'false Christs' deceive by performing wonders or showing signs that make us think we can tell using our own understanding whether they are true. But I think the passage says we (any of us) won't have any trouble discerning Christ when He returns; it'll be a no-brainer.

Who are the elect? The ones with faith to the end.

2 c,
lunamoth

PS, Thank you to Seattlegal for posting the big chunk of Matt 24--it was helpful for me to reflect upon this passage tonight.

You're welcome, lunamoth.
I would like to add that if you wish to discard Jesus's warning about not being deceived by believing that it is not possible for you to be deceived, then you leave yourself open for the most insidious kind of self-deception and delusion, IMHO. I choose to keep faith in Jesus's warning, and to remain diligent in guarding against becoming so self-assured that I cannot be deceived, and trust in God to cut the time of deception and tribulation short.

[nimesh0775]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

You're welcome, lunamoth.
I would like to add that if you wish to discard Jesus's warning about not being deceived by believing that it is not possible for you to be deceived, then you leave yourself open for the most insidious kind of self-deception and delusion, IMHO. I choose to keep faith in Jesus's warning, and to remain diligent in guarding against becoming so self-assured that I cannot be deceived, and trust in God to cut the time of deception and tribulation short.

Hi guys,

I'm new to this forum, so forgive me for butting in!

Yeah, I agree with what you say about self-deception. Basically we are minute insignificant living entities that are prone to four types of defects, namely illusion, cheating, imperfect senses and mistakes. No living entity can be claim to be free of these four defects. That is why messengers of God advise people to follow the instructions of God - the one perfect authority. We are always prone to illusion, but if we trust in God and sincerely try to carry out his instructions, He will carry what we lack and preserve what we have.

Kind regards,
Nimesh