giving jesus a face means your giving god a face?

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

what you say doesnt make sence...
you have not found where jesus says i am god
you have not answered why god prayed to himself, why god was baptised, and why would god have to come to earth to save our sins, what sins did he save...tell me...refer verses to me...why did god kill himself for people like me?why did god have to savre my sins on earth when this comes into play at the time of judgement

Hopefully this answers your question, "where is Jesus God in the New Testament?":

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 1:15
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him. Colossians 1:19

True, these verses do not explicitly say that "Jesus is God." When Colossians 1:15 says that he is "the image" of God, it means he is a projection of God. Aspects of God's holy character and personality are transmitted through him. Jesus inherited God's holy character and personality. He did not, however, inherit His knowledge. This is why Jesus didn't know what God knew.

This is what Colossians 1:19 suggested, that aspects of God's character were imparted in Christ. God and Jesus are two separate beings, but share the same personality. That is why people sometimes say "Jesus is God," not because they are one in mind, but one in personality.

"Son of God" could be seen as the title of the Messiah, our universal spiritual leader. In a sense, he is called "Son of God" because he is the first in God's Kingdom, and he leads us to God. The fact that he also shares God's personality implies that it is not really two Persons, but One Person: God. That's because both God and Jesus have God's personality. Jesus' personality was really God's personality.

Because we are aligning ourselves to two beings with identical personality, we are really aligning ourselves with One Personality: the Persona of God.

Originally Posted by Zaakir

jesus is God or a God, right?so if youre giving him a face your giving God a face....simple as....you have to agree youre giving God a face and reptresentation as jesus is God....if you say no...then are you denying the trinity?

Giving Jesus a face does not mean giving God a face. I think you are confusing the word "image" with physical appearance as opposed to spiritual nature. Does that help?

Originally Posted by Zaakir

but if you say jesus is god...you are giving god a face!!i dont get ...if jesus died for our sins...why are we still born with natural sin?and why are so many beleivers in christianity sinners...not that im saying us muslims arent sinless becasue we all sin...but i know many christians who donot follow the 10 commandments

The death by itself does not cure us of a sinful nature. It is only by believing in the concept of him that we are cured. Just as the Israelites who looked at the snake in the desert were cured of snake-bite, we too will be cured after we die of our sinful nature:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everybody who believes in him may have eternal life. John 3:14-15

Those who are not cured will remain dead. Look up Numbers 21:4-9 for some background. Adam and Eve were tricked into eating the Forbidden Fruit by a Serpent. Likewise we are all cursed with "snake-bite." Jesus, the man who was condemned as a heretic, blasphemer and slanderer might be seen as analogous to the snake in the desert, but by looking at him we'll be cured.

The cure doesn't happen in this life, though, but in the afterlife. That's an important point: it happens after death.

Originally Posted by Zaakir

seeming as were born with natural sin inherited from Adam (a.s)...then does taht meen if my dad commited a sin before i was born i get hios sins..seeming sins appear to be hereditry then?also if you think jesus is god then ofcourse he will follow the commandments!lol!!!

In the New Testament "sin" can mean one of two things: 1) the act of wrongdoing, 2) the sinful nature.

The act of wrongdoing is not inherited by offspring. The sinful nature is a hereditary disease. It is not genetic, but passed down from the souls of the parents to the soul of the child. There is no gene for sin as it is spiritual.

So the answer is no, your father's sins in doing wrong are not inherited, but the spiritual nature that gives you the desire for them is inherited by you.

Hopefully that answers your questions . . .

[Nusaybah]

Do you see a difference between these two Bible versions?

King James Version

Acts 3:25 - Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Acts 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

New King James Version

Acts 3:25 - You are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Acts 3:26 - To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.


In the KJV, we find that Jesus is God's Son. In the NKJV, we find that He is God's servant. These are clearly not the same! The Greek word found in the text here is "pais". It can be used in Greek for either "son" or "servant." So which one is correct here?
The solution is simple: look at the context in which it is used. In English, we have many words that can have more than one meaning. If a translator, going from English to another language, came across the word "bear," he would have a choice of meanings. But it wouldn't take rocket science to figure out which one to use.
If the passage described a man with a heavy burden, the translator would understand that the man is going to "bear," or "carry" the burden. If, on the other hand, the passage described a hairy beast climbing a tree, the translator would understand the correct meaning here applies to a forest-dwelling animal that will eat nearly anything it finds. It's not really very hard.
Now look at the Bible passage above. What is being discussed?
"children of the prophets"
"covenant which God made with our fathers"
"in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."
It's clear, isn't it? The passage is talking about "children," and "fathers" and "seed." The word "pais" means "son." But the New King James translators chose "servant." Why? They were not alone. The New World Translation, created by the Jehovah's Witnesses who deny the deity of Jesus, translated this word "servant" also. So do the NIV, ASV, NASB and other modern Bible translations.
Could it be that these modern translators disagree that "pais" can be translated "son?" No, the NKJV committee translates this very word as "boy," "child" or "son" in Matthew 2:16; 17:18; 21:15; Luke 2:43; 9:42; and John 4:51. Yet they refused to translate the word as "son" in this powerful sermon where Peter presents Jesus as Messiah and Son of God.
One has to ask, why were these translators so determined to deny the deity of Jesus in this passage? Is this a Bible you can trust with your eternal destiny?
1- Mark 10:18 Jesus said "And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."
2- John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"
3- John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"
4- Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
5- Even in the Old Testament, the foretold Prophet, Jesus, was said to have the Spirit of Fearing GOD Almighty in him:
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed....(From the NIV Bible, Matthew 16:39)"
"So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:44)"
"One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)"
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be HEARD FOR THEIR MUCH SPEAKING. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 6:5-8)"
"In modern English usage, the Son of God is almost always a reference to Jesus Christ, whom Christianity holds to be the son of the Christian God, eternally begotten of God the Father and coeternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Human or part-human offspring of deities are very common in other religions and mythologies, however. For example in the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the earliest recorded legends of humanity, Gilgamesh claimed to be of both human and divine descent. Another well-known son of a god and a human is Hercules.
A great many pantheons also included genealogies in which various gods were descended from other gods, and so the term "son of god" may be applied to many actual deities as well."
So as we can see, the "Son of GOD" theory originally comes from pagan Greek origins. And since most of the Bible's New Testament was written in Greek, then it had been without a doubt negatively influenced by such pagan theology, where Jesus being called "Son of GOD" is literally interpreted today as "part of GOD" or the "Creator of the Universe".
In the Hebrew Bible Israel is both a man (Jacob, the son of Isaac) and the nation that descended from him.
Because of the shared name and organic identity, God speaks to the nation as though he were a single person. Israel is, in fact, God's son (Exod 4:22 — beni vechori yisrael; Deut 14:1 — banim atem l'Adonai; Jer 31:9 — ki hayiti le'yisrael le'av; Hosea 11:1 — mimitzrayim qarati livni).
Israel's Father nurtures him to grow up and become a worshiping servant (Exod 4:23 — "Let my son go that he may serve me")."
Here we see when Israel became GOD Almighty's "son", he reached the point of being GOD Almighty's "servant". This means that "son of GOD" is nothing but a "Servant of GOD" as clearly defined in Islam. It doesn't at all mean that the individual is part of GOD Almighty, or he is GOD the Father Himself.
This is further proven in this quote:
"The Inner Son Rescues His People
Read together, these texts make clear that the Plan (etzah) is set in God's mind. He will use the anointed one — and his circle of faithful-to-God disciples — as his agent for bringing rebellious Israel back to his sonship calling.
YHVH formed me from the womb to be His Servant,
to bring Jacob back to him,
in order that Israel might be gathered to Him.
It is too small a thing that you should be
my Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,
and to restore the preserved ones [netzurim] of Israel . . . (Isa 49:5, 6)
It's worth noting that the apostles Paul and Barnabas quoted this passage in reference to themselves, as being members of the Messiah's Remnant Israel (Acts 13:46-48; cf. Luke 2:32).
Again, we see that the Son of GOD's main responsibility is to Serve GOD Almighty and to Worship Him alone. So a Son of GOD is basically a Servant of GOD. Also, Jesus being called "Son of GOD" is also no different. Him being the "Son of GOD" means he is a Servant of GOD Almighty, or Abdallah, since "Abd" means "Servant of" and "Allah" means "GOD" or "The Supreme GOD Almighty above all gods".
All of mankind are the servants of God. If a man were to own another man then that man would be his servant. Obviously this servant would be held in a lower regard than this man's own children (or himself). We do not usually find people telling their sons (or themselves): "come here my servant," or "Go over there my servant." Let us compare this with what God has to say about Jesus (pbuh):
Matthew 12:18: "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen."
Acts 3:13(RSV): "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac,.... hath glorified his servant Jesus."
Acts 4:27(RSV): "For of a truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hast anointed...."
The Actual Greek word used is "pias" or "paida" which mean; "servant, child, son, manservant." Some translations of the Bible, such as the popular King James Version, have translated this word as "Son" when it is attributed to Jesus (pbuh) and "servant" for most everyone else, while more recent translations of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version (RSV) now honestly translate it as "servant." As we shall see in later chapters, the RSV was compiled by thirty two Biblical scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 cooperating Christian denominations from the "most" ancient Biblical manuscripts available to them today. Chances are that no matter what your church or denomination you are able to name, that church took part in the correction of the King James Version of the Bible which resulted in the RSV.

The exact same word "pias" is attributed to Jacob(Israel) in Luke 1:54 and translated as "servant":
"He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;."
It is also applied to King David in Luke 1:69, and once again, it is translated as "servant":
"....the house of his servant David;" (also see Acts 4:25).
However, when it is applied to Jesus (e.g. Acts 3:13, Acts 4:27), NOW it is translated as "Son." (notice that it is not only translated as "son" but as "Son".) Why the double standard? Why the dishonest translation techniques?
"And verily, among them is a party who twist their tongues with the Scripture that you might think that it is from the Scripture but it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from Allah' but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while [well] they know it!"
The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):78
"The Messiah will never scorn to be a servant of Allah, nor will the favored angels. Whosoever scorns His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him; Then as for those who believed and did good works, unto them will he pay their wages in full and shall increase them from His bounty. [But] as for those who were scornful and proud, He shall punish hem with a painful torment, nor will they find for themselves other than Allah any ally or champion"
The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):172-174
The Bible in the Old Testament also refuted trinity by saying that Jesus will have the spirit of fearing GOD Almighty in him.

How can GOD Almighty fear Himself? And why would the Creator of the Universe have any fear in Him?

Jesus clearly was the Servant of GOD Almighty as Islam claims. Jesus was the Jews' Messiah and Leader, and Allah Almighty's Messenger to them. But he was not part of GOD Almighty, nor His biological son.

[Nusaybah]

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." (Holy Qur'an, 112:1-4) There has appeared a man in Benoni. He is not qualified in theology, but is fondly cherishing the self-delusion that he is an apostle of Christ, appointed by God to convert Muslims to Christianity. Because he is a lawyer by profession, he is adept at juggling with words and quoting the Holy Qur'an totally out of context without knowing a word of Arabic. He wants Muslims to believe that Jesus was also a God, a belief that is abhorrent to us, because it is an antithesis of the Absolute perfection of Allah Subhaanahoo Wa Ta 'Aala! Thus intent upon reversing the process of Truth, which is: "And say: The Truth has come and falsehood vanished. Surely falsehood is ever bound to vanish." (Qur'an, 17:81). In this he will never succeed because the process of Truth is irreversible.

TWO REASONS He has given two reasons to prove that Jesus is God, viz: (i) "When we say Jesus is deity (or even God for that matter), we do not make him the Father! He is one with the Father and therefore HE SHARES HIS NATURE", and (ii) "HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is not the Father". In short, according to him, Jesus is God because He SHARES THE NATURE OF GOD, and HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. These two reasons given by him to prove the divinity of Jesus are so puerile that they speak volumes of his legal training. Numerous quotations from the Bible are given below to prove that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He can, therefore, NEVER be GOD. We have given the quotations from the Bible without comment, because the Bible speaks for itself! TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD OR SON OF GOD IS NOT ONLY A MOCKERY OF GODHOOD, BUT BLASPHEMY OF THE LOWEST ORDER AND AND INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE OF MEN! (Note: Unless otherwise stated, all quotations from the Bible are given from the Authorized Version. In our headings and subheadings we have referred to Jesus as "God" in inverted commas in order to show the ABSURDITY of the claim of this man that Jesus is God!)
THE BIRTH OF "GOD" "God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3) "God" was the fruit of the loins of David: "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30) The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1) The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21) How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God". Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke, 2:6) which means that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2) "God" Sucked The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27) The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1) The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55) The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5) "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14) The Wining and Dining of "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34) The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20) The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23) "God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35) "God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:21) He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew, 17:24-27)

THE FAMILY OF "GOD" "God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45) Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things? (Matthew, 13:54-56)

THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD" Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke, 2:40) Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." (Luke, 2:52) "God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42) The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30) "God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32) "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13) "God" Was Unlettered: "Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John, 7:14-15) "God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8)
THE TEMPTING OF "GOD" The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13) The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13) Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15) True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13) Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14)
THE MISSION OF "GOD" The Confession and Repentance of "God": before the beginning of his public ministry: "Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist" (Matthew, 3:13), "which signified the confession of sins" (Matthew, 3:6), "and repentance from sins (Matthew, 3:11). "God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." (Mark, 4:10-12)
THE RACIAL "GOD" "God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5) "God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24) Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6) According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (matthew, 15:26) The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33) The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13)
A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered." (Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12) A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28) A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow." (Mark, 4:38) A Weary "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6) A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John, 11:33), "Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:38) A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept." (John, 11:35) A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38) A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be soreamazed and to be very heavy." (Mark, 14:33) A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43)
THE WARRING "GOD" The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables." (John, 2:13-15) The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34) The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke, 22:36) The
"GOD" ON THE RUN "God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1) "God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54) "God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39) "God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59)
THE CAPTURE OF "GOD" A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3) "God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13) "God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67) "God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said: "Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23) "God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They answered and said, he is guilty of death." (Matthew, 26:66) The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32)
THE SUPPOSED END OF "GOD" The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark, 15:37) The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John, 19:33) The Supposed Corpse of "God": "he (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." (Matthew, 27:58) The Shroud of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew, 27:59) The Orbituary of The Late And Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, certainly this was a righteous man." (Luke, 23:47)
EPILOGUE According to this self-appointed apostle of Christ, Jesus is God because: (i) "HE SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with this Christian. Either he must prove that Jesus is God, or he must admit that he is a polytheist, i.e., a believer in more than one God. WITH ALL THE TRICKS AND VERBAL LEGERDEMAIN OF HIS PROFESSION, HE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!! He and his fellow-preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything other than a natural man and a prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which prophecy was fulfilled with the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammed (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa Sallam)!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

i have not yet come across in the bibl where JESUS HIMSELF has said i am god or worship me

He said, "I AM WHO AM". That was only said once before Jesus, by God the Father in the old Testament.

Exodus 3: 14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 8: 58 "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM."

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[Penguin]

Wow, this is a great thread! Many thanks.

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Giving Jesus a face does not mean giving God a face. I think you are confusing the word "image" with physical appearance as opposed to spiritual nature. Does that help?

The word "image" in the scope of "making a graven image" is to be interpreted literally. It's a condemnation of idolatry, something that Judaism, even in its very-different Biblical form, has traditionally advocated.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The act of wrongdoing is not inherited by offspring. The sinful nature is a hereditary disease. It is not genetic, but passed down from the souls of the parents to the soul of the child. There is no gene for sin as it is spiritual.

In Christianity... Not all religions have a negative view of humanity.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Exodus 3: 14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 8: 58 "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM."

Does Jesus actually claim to be YHVH in that line? That could just be translation flaws rearing its ugly head.

[I, Brian]

Let's try and keep the big copy/pastes from other websites, please - links are good enough, thanks.

[Nusaybah]

It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)" Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God?
How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.

[Nusaybah]

http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.html:
I'm sure this could help

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Karimarie

The word "image" in the scope of "making a graven image" is to be interpreted literally. It's a condemnation of idolatry, something that Judaism, even in its very-different Biblical form, has traditionally advocated.



In Christianity... Not all religions have a negative view of humanity.



Does Jesus actually claim to be YHVH in that line? That could just be translation flaws rearing its ugly head.

Well, we can compare the actual Greek and Hebrew texts to determine if there was a flaw. However, in a previous post I pointed out several dozen verses where Jesus' divinity is without question. The odds are in favor that there is no flaw in the translation.

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[BlaznFattyz]

1- Mark 10:18 Jesus said "And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."
2- John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"
3- John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"
4- Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
5- Even in the Old Testament, the foretold Prophet, Jesus, was said to have the Spirit of Fearing GOD Almighty in him:

to answer the first, no one is good but God, Jesus was also good, all he did was good. he loved God perfectly, he did not sin perfectly, he knew all the commandments and followed them perfectly, he cured, healed, forgave, taught, and saved others perfectly. All he did was good as God is good. if you answer the question, was Jesus good? the answer is yes, therefore he is God. Some new very well he was good, those that saw christ saw the father.

i already answered your questions in 2, 3, 4...jesus whose physical form for a short while and work as a servant to die for us as a spotless lamb for the salvation of our sins, in that respect his position is lower than God, but his Spirit is God which is why he is the Son, was conceived of the Holy Spirit of God, and the Spirit of God dwelt fully in him-- in that respect his Spirit was on the same spiritual level as God for there is none good and perfect but God.

"jesus not knowing the time, was a statement made in context of time that he was here on earth. coming from God from everlasting eternity, he is I Am, Yahweh Elohim, all knowing and all powerful; however, being born on earth he had also another nature, that is of man. he grew in wisdom of the Lord and came as a servant to save man. he had his limitations as a man, which he showed as praying to the holy father in heaven for strength. however when he spoke, it was the Word of God as it came out. They had differences in their form, not in nature, and only for a short while. Yes being born on earth to die for our sins, he emptied himself of his glorified body to die for us, that is the extent of Gods love for us. As it is said, there is no greater love than to die for your fellow man. That is what God did for us."

question 5 is simply Jesus loved and feared God the father with all his heart. having the nature of man, in addition to the nature of God, the Sons human nature pleased God as he loved and feared him perfectly as man should.

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Well, we can compare the actual Greek and Hebrew texts to determine if there was a flaw.

Is there a copy of the Septuagint anywhere online? It wouldn't be necessary to compare the Hebrew to the Greek as the Septuagint translation of the Torah (in which God's name appears) is considered to be a flawless translation.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

However, in a previous post I pointed out several dozen verses where Jesus' divinity is without question. The odds are in favor that there is no flaw in the translation.

That statement presumes belief that Christian scripture is accurate. If the reader does not read with that belief present, citing passages doesn't probe anything as their validity is doubted.

Your citations are circular logic. They presume acceptance of Christian scripture as valid in order for their worth to be present. Am I expected to believe Sephiroth is God by the testimony of Final Fantasy VII?

[Quahom1]

Is there a copy of the Septuagint anywhere online? It wouldn't be necessary to compare the Hebrew to the Greek as the Septuagint translation of the Torah (in which God's name appears) is considered to be a flawless translation.

Yeah, there is, but Jews might disagree with your perspective, considering the Septuigint was written in Greek...and the Jews reset their Cannonization of the writings to only include that which was written earlier, in Hebrew...

That statement presumes belief that Christian scripture is accurate. If the reader does not read with that belief present, citing passages doesn't probe anything as their validity is doubted.

Christian scripture doesn't ask that you accept theirs as accurate. The fathers that wrote it could care less. It is, you accept or you do not. That is your call and your right.

Your citations are circular logic. They presume acceptance of Christian scripture as valid in order for their worth to be present. Am I expected to believe Sephiroth is God by the testimony of Final Fantasy VII?

1. There is no circular logic. Either you accept or you do not. Their worth is not dependant upon a single human's perspective or point of view. That is called an opinion.

2. Final Fantasy is just as the title implies, a fantasy. (a good story I might add).

3. You don't have to accept anything my friend. But you do have to be polite here. You are not being polite, and I take acception to that...

Your "Final Fantasy" and the "Scriptures of God" are about 2-7000 years apart. Your FF authors are known, and I doubt they would claim to be the onous of all, let alone God inspired. God on the other hand claims to have inspired and in many parts, "spoke" in scripture.

Final Fantasy leaves one hanging from each story to the next (13 now is it?), the Bible doesn't...

Let's get a grip here.

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[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Yeah, there is, but Jews might disagree with your perspective, considering the Septuigint was written in Greek...and the Jews reset their Cannonization of the writings to only include that which was written earlier, in Hebrew...

The Septuagint translation of the Torah is thought to be without flaw... It's the rest of the Tanakh (and later on, Christian scripture) that Jews typically have a problem with. The KJV translation of the Septuagint into English is almost word-for-word with the JPS, which is a translation of the Masoretic text.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Christian scripture doesn't ask that you accept theirs as accurate. The fathers that wrote it could care less. It is, you accept or you do not. That is your call and your right.

The point that I was getting at is that citing biblical passages, regardless of from which religion, does not actually qualify the beliefs of the religion as legitimate. It's a matter of faith, not a matter of text. Thus, citing Scripture as evidence that a particular belief is true is pointless as different religions will inevitably regard different texts as divine and others as not (or, worse, as heresy).

Originally Posted by Quahom1

3. You don't have to accept anything my friend. But you do have to be polite here. You are not being polite, and I take acception to that...

I tend to be blunt with my words and text-based communication strips my language of the inflection that would exist in speech (or signing, for that matter, as I'm hard of hearing). There is no malice or anger in my words so please do not misunderstand my meaning. I'm not criticising you for your beliefs.

[Quahom1]

[quote=Karimarie]

The Septuagint translation of the Torah is thought to be without flaw... It's the rest of the Tanakh (and later on, Christian scripture) that Jews typically have a problem with. The KJV translation of the Septuagint into English is almost word-for-word with the JPS, which is a translation of the Masoretic text.

Don't take my word for it. This was done almost 2000 years ago, by Jews. They created the official Judeac Cannon, and they threw the Septuagint out. Only Hebrew text are accepted. The latter 15 books (not Hebrew in writ), were excluded.

The point that I was getting at is that citing biblical passages, regardless of from which religion, does not actually qualify the beliefs of the religion as legitimate. It's a matter of faith, not a matter of text. Thus, citing Scripture as evidence that a particular belief is true is pointless as different religions will inevitably regard different texts as divine and others as not (or, worse, as heresy).

It is all we have to go on my friend, that and how it affects our daily lives. I don't know about you, but my life has been postitively affected by the words I read as a child and as of now. I in turn help affect others (hence set an example), which means the "word" lives on, at least in this small corner of the earth. So, by your very own vernacular, "it is a matter of faith", and by faith I act, so therefore the scripture is proven true, at least this time...

I tend to be blunt with my words and text-based communication strips my language of the inflection that would exist in speech (or signing, for that matter, as I'm hard of hearing). There is no malice or anger in my words so please do not misunderstand my meaning. I'm not criticising you for your beliefs

Thank you for pointing that out. it changes things (at least attitudes)

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