giving jesus a face means your giving god a face?

[Zaakir]

Blaznfattys…I read your reply and found little evidence and answers to my questions…surprise surprise…
Firstly in Isaiah 9:6
He will be called everlasting father…so Jesus is the father here right?
Matthew…as for that, that is in the new testament written many many many years after god died (I know that sounds highly disrespectful but that what you say) so how can this be 100% accurate…who was Matthew? Yes a follower of Christ…so we are led to believe yes, but his book was wrote about 300 years after Christ….don’t quote me on that because I will have to research and I cant be bothered as I am not doing any answering these comments.
Isaiah 40:3 way of the lord…could this mean the Lord our God whose way we have been given since the dawn of time…and hence be referring to the day of judgement?
As for john. He just repeated what was in the scriptures which Isaiah wrote
In Isaiah 45:23
Was Jesus the one giving Isaiah the divine revelation…as you refer to the kneeling before Jesus…what about god? Cannot we kneel before him here on earth and praise Him in the heavens? If not then how do you praise His eternal wisdom and glory? If you say yes we can, then was god not talking about Himself as the old testament was not written by ‘the son’ therefore we are not told to bow to Jesus, and I challenge you to find anyone especially a Jew who will agree with you here about the old testament and therefore torah being written by Jesus…do I need to say anymore…if you think so let me know
Isaiah 44:6
I think you proved Jesus is not god and therefore not his son as god as god says there is no god but me…unless he is referring to three people. But He, the father is specifically referring to Himself.
Again in Isaiah 48:12 god states that there is non but He, He is the first, the last…Jesus wasn’t the first….how could he be…wasn’t he born of a woman and therefore human…and therefore if Mary wasn’t born at the dawn of time…which I am sure genesis doesn’t say…then obviously Jesus wasn’t born?
Revelations 22:13
Id it Jesus claiming to be the beginning? or god?. Jesus could not have been the beginning if his mother was not born
Colossians 1:15
Jesus was the first born of god…really?
Jeremiah 31:9
Deuteronomy 14:1
psalms 2:7
Here god refers to other people being His children…these people come before Jesus in history…fact!
John 1:29...this is said by a third person. Not john who wrote it. Not Jesus not god, so who is this mysterious guy? And how does this give any evidence of something because a unknown third person said it?
Matthew 1:21 again wrote after the death of Jesus…who was the person that heard this to write it down…Mary…the angel Gabriel? Who? Also this surely interferes with what Isaiah prophesied.. he said the baby will be called Emmanuel…not Jesus.
Psalm 2:7
weren’t the psalms given to David…not Jesus…David is clearly talking about himself…he has not become Jesus for this verse!
Matthew 1:18...holy spirit…angel Gabriel…wasn’t he the one who told Mary she was going to have a child?
John 3:16...Jesus aka son of god was sent to us as a test…what about the people before Christ came…what was there test?
Matthew 3:17...god calls Jesus his son….refer to what I said before…the quotes in the bible
John 10:30...Jesus and the father are one,….where is the holy spirit?
John 14:8...Jesus =god this says….but Jesus said in another chapter in the bible that the father is greater than him…but he says here that the father is him.
I cannot find exactly where you got this from:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us," "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Does this mean god divided and then decided He wanted to become mortal? WOW…pretty bold statement
Exodus 3:14
No mention of Jesus here in the bible…just god
John 6:54...cannibalism…?how would you eat your god…isn’t this disrespectful…saying you are eating god? You would never say this about your parents….let alone god!
John 8:23...two people/being talked of…what about the third where is he mentioned??? elaborate!
Mark 2:7 EXACTLY!

[Quahom1]

QUOTE]
It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)" Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God?
How many people existed before Abraham?
[/quote]

None in Jesus' time as a man on earth...

The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity.

That is because it is God talking about the making of Jeremiah, not Jeremiah talking about the making of Jeremiah...

In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not.

And Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, and concerning the Speptuagint, there are issues with that and the original Hebrew text. However, the translations of both still claim the all "I AM". besides, no human ever said before Abraham was I AM, except Jesus, so your point lacks strength to continue.

v/r

Q

[Zaakir]

" Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)"
people have dwelled upon this statement for ages is this only evidence you have to say jesus is god....and if u read the statement...it is in john..after jesus dies...after abraham died...yes?thereforewouldnt this have been in abrahams part of the old testament...
god says to abraham, before abraham was i am...obviously...god existed 1st?jesus did not as jesus was born of a human woamn...she did noyt exist at the dawn of time therfore its impossible for jeus to be....unl;ess mary is his surrogate mother and therefor enot his rael mother, which the bibl;e seems to oppose as she is his real mother

[Zaakir]

1- Mark 10:18 Jesus said "And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

Blaznfatty said:
to answer the first, no one is good but God, Jesus was also good, all he did was good. he loved God perfectly, he did not sin perfectly, he knew all the commandments and followed them perfectly, he cured, healed, forgave, taught, and saved others perfectly. All he did was good as God is good. if you answer the question, was Jesus good? the answer is yes, therefore he is God. Some new very well he was good, those that saw Christ saw the father.

Can I quote mark 10:18 again?
Jesus said. Why do you call me good. No one is good but god alone…the person talking to Jesus was calling him good. Jesus blatantly said no one is good but god. Therefore he is saying ONLY god is good and therefore he isn’t. if he was going to say he was good…I’m sure he would have said. Yes I am..(as I am god).
You said also:
"Jesus not knowing the time, was a statement made in context of time that he was here on earth. coming from God from everlasting eternity, he is I Am, Yahweh Elohim, all knowing and all powerful; however, being born on earth he had also another nature, that is of man. he grew in wisdom of the Lord and came as a servant to save man. he had his limitations as a man, which he showed as praying to the holy father in heaven for strength. however when he spoke, it was the Word of God as it came out. They had differences in their form, not in nature, and only for a short while. Yes being born on earth to die for our sins, he emptied himself of his glorified body to die for us, that is the extent of Gods love for us. As it is said, there is no greater love than to die for your fellow man. That is what God did for us."
Obviously they were different in nature as you said Jesus had a human nature !read what you write please…you have many flaws in your work! If you say Jesus had a human nature then you are saying god had a human nature as you’re saying and believe Jesus is a part of god…how can god be human as having a human nature…?are humans all powerful, all wise, all knowing, praiseworthy and unbelievably so spectacular and great, that none of the attributions I have written do any justice to Allah (swt) what so ever…you’re saying that this as human? how..? I know that when I was in primary school…and secondary school…2 years ago…we believed in religious studies, and also from going to the church that god cannot be compared to human as having our characteristics…such as being tempted by the devil. As Jesus was. For 40 days and 40 nights.!
You say god died for us to save our sins…I don’t see how? As we still have original sin. Which you say cannot be removed unless Jesus is accepted…do the Jews believe this./..I don’t think this was in any prophecy was it?
SALTMEISTER:
You said Jesus was the firstborn…I challenge you and beg you to say that you can say 100% that god never said this in old testament about 5 times….refer to previous chats I have had…like the one above that NO ONE has replied to yet!!!!
You said: Jesus inherited God's holy character and personality.
Ok…so was Jesus not god until he inherited these qualities…but I thought somebody said that Jesus was always part of god before he came to earth…if he wasn’t then why did the religion change from 1 god to three?
You say that it is not told to us explicitly..? why would you believe something cannot literally have a meaning…is your faith based on assumptions? If so…I must admire your faith! We believe the Quran…..we know the Quran does not have any ‘interpretations’ every sentence has a literal meaning and is not just metaphors or not implied by something, we are told exactly a statement by Allah and His reason for this.
You say SAME PERSONALITY ok…where in the bible does this say this? Suppose it does…the personality and therefore the person of Jesus was tempted by the devil for 4o days and nights…so god was tempted by the devil…I know its confusing when I say god…but assume I mean ‘the father’ but god in Christianity…as I was brought up in my Christian beliefs was that the father, son and holy spirit are one. They can be referred to as three separate things/attributions, but they are equal and all one as the all make up the term GOD…so saying Jesus was tempted by satan…god was tempted…simple as you cannot disagree…surely?
You said:The fact that he also shares God's personality implies that it is not really two Persons, but One Person: God.
God is not a person! And also you clearly stated two persons…what about the third???? isn’t he important? Ascribing the word person to god is ascribing He is human, which can I ask…do you not find this an insult? If you don’t then I don’t know why the heck I waited till I was 18 to revert to Islam…..I have only been Muslim for 4 months and I can find clear unexplained and unacceptable statement in the bible which I cannot accept, but I did believe them before and just accepted them without understanding….but if this is your chance to prove to god you love and worship Him then you should understand your religion without fault and should be able to shoot an 18 year old like myself down in flames…but I am not getting any answers to my questions!
As I said this is your chance to prove to god your worthy of heaven etc….can you live sinful…but accept Jesus as god and get to heaven, because that it what has been implied!
Also you actually answered a question about giving god a face…what I mean is basic and people read into it far to much! Jesus is part of the trinity? Jesus is therefore god…(here I’m calling god the trinity…not the father)so if Jesus is god and we see paintings and statues in churches…this is a picture. An image of what people think he looks like…as he is god then this statue is god…fare enough., god the son…but nevertheless god…so this statue is god!!!
As for original sin….Jesus cam to earth to save us from sin…so why don’t we go straight to heaven…why bother with the punishment of earth?…original sin is passed on to souls you said…not genetically…so everything born of man has a soul and therefore original sin…therefore Jesus has original sin…he is born of man…you can argue…but simple as…he was born of a virgin, Mary. Fact! So he has sin! If we don’t accept Jesus as god you will say we cannot remove original sin., unless we accept Jesus…but Jesus came to save the sins of mankind…so he would also remove this so called sin.?

*****I WOULD BE GRATEFUL IF PEOPLE COULD TRY AND ANSWER TIS AND MY LAST POST THAT WAS LONG…because people seem to avoid questions, I just want to know answers as to why Jesus and human qualities can be associated with god.

[Azure24]

Maybe 'i am' had a different meaning in the first text (language) it was written in. Also consider this some people believe (not myself personally though) that Jesus is the incarnate of the arch angel Michael (supposedly the second angel god created after the devil).

[cavalier]

Zaakir, I will try to answer your question in my next post. First though I want to point out that people have been trying to answer your questions. Perhaps the reason you are not satisfied is that you seem to be trying to make sense of Christianity through a muslim framework. This will never work.

Don't know about anybody else but I have no desire to "shoot you down in flames" If you are happy within Islam then that's great.

I'm not sure where this desire to bash Christianity comes from.
You will not be the first to have unanswered questions regarding Christianity, you will not be the first to have reservations, and you will not be the first who can make Christianity look like foolishness.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

I just want to know answers as to why Jesus and human qualities can be associated with god.

The short answer? because we are told that we are made in the image of God.

That does not have to mean that we look like God, or even that God occupies a physical space. I think it means that in some of our higher characteristics are Godly. For example love. When we express or show love, we have a tiny, tiny glimpse of the nature of God.

As Jesus was a man, the above applies. Jesus was also God (I guess you will want proof of this statement but I am not going to give any. This is something you either believe or you don't. It would appear that you do not, and so all the verses in the Bible that might show this will mean nothing to you.) and so could not sin. You have mentioned the temptation of Jesus. Jesus was tempted because he was man, because he was God, he resisted the temptation.

I guess your questions remain, but I have answered.

[China Cat Sunflower]

He's right ya know: It doesn't make any bloody sense.

Chris

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Nusaybah

Do you see a difference between these two Bible versions?

King James Version

Acts 3:25 - Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Acts 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

New King James Version

Acts 3:25 - You are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
Acts 3:26 - To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.

In the KJV, we find that Jesus is God's Son. In the NKJV, we find that He is God's servant. These are clearly not the same! The Greek word found in the text here is "pais". It can be used in Greek for either "son" or "servant." So which one is correct here?

Even in the English language, "son" can be exchanged for "servant." It's possible that the reason why "pais" in Greek could mean either "son" or "servant" is because the two meanings, in many cultures, are interchangeable.

The founder of a religion is sometimes called "a father." Why? It's because his religion, the personality/behaviour of his followers, and the power of the movement itself is a brainchild of his ideas. The religion itself is an expression of the founder's passions, ideas, visions, ambitions, etc. Therefore, the followers of that religion are called "the sons" of the founder. Because as a Christian I am a spiritual descendent of Christ, I could well call myself "a son of Jesus" or "a son of Christ" as I am a follower of his religion. However, people don't use that kind of expression. That kind of expression confuses people. That's why instead of calling myself "a son of Christ," I call myself "a brother of Christ."

There's also another reason why I don't call myself "son of Christ." God is the Father. Jesus was the first son of God, His first servant. God was Jesus' Master. That's why He's called Father. "Son of God" is more of a title for the First Servant. God sent this First Servant to us to lead us back to Himself. The First Servant is our leader, leading us to God, which makes him Messiah.

One example of how "father" could mean "master" is in 2 Kings.

"My father, my father. The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart. 2 Kings 2:12

This is where Elijah is taken up into heaven. Elijah was Elisha's master, but not a natural father, and nor was he father-in-law. Yet, Elisha calls him "father" which suggests that "father" is sometimes used interchangeably with "master."

The ancient Chinese called their Emperor "the Son of Heaven" not because he was really "a child from heaven" but because he was a representative of the Divine Authority. Even if it really did mean "child of heaven" in Chinese it would not have meant that he was born in heaven and was brought down from it. If the Emperor of China didn't conduct himself properly or rule well, the "Mandate of Heaven" would be withdrawn from him. It was believed that defeat in war, natural disasters, political instability, corruption would follow. The natural order of events led to the collapse of a dynasty, a sign the Mandate had been withdrawn.

I don't think it's just the Greek and English languages that do this, but many other languages as well. "Son" is sometimes interchanged for "servant" and likewise "father" for "master." It's the use of words, the use of language to convey meaning. I think the reason why the word "Son" is sometimes used is because a "Servant" can be thought of as a personification of a Son. A servant is like a son carrying out the will of his father. It also emphasises the relationship between the servant and master, that it's very much like an ideal father-son relationship.

Originally Posted by Nusaybah

..........
So as we can see, the "Son of GOD" theory originally comes from pagan Greek origins. And since most of the Bible's New Testament was written in Greek, then it had been without a doubt negatively influenced by such pagan theology, where Jesus being called "Son of GOD" is literally interpreted today as "part of GOD" or the "Creator of the Universe".

Jesus clearly was the Servant of GOD Almighty as Islam claims. Jesus was the Jews' Messiah and Leader, and Allah Almighty's Messenger to them. But he was not part of GOD Almighty, nor His biological son.

What created the universe was the Logos. The Greek word Logos means "Reasoning" or "Wisdom." In terms of God, the Logos may be thought of as "the Ultimate Wisdom." When God created the universe, God revealed His wisdom, so the verse John 1:3 could well be another way of saying that God can't do anything without expressing Himself.

In the past, in Old Testament times, God communicated with His people through dreams and visions. This could be seen as the Logos of the Old Testament times. The Jesus in Christianity is seen as the Logos taking the form of a reality in the flesh rather than just the mind. While in past God used a dream or vision to communicate, this time he used a real human being, one you could talk to, see, touch, feel, hear, smell and meet in the marketplace. A reality in the flesh (John 1:14).

As well as being a human being, a being separate from God, he was considered to be a carrier of the Logos of God. Jesus had free will and a mind of his own, but at the same time, God was projecting the Logos through him. Jesus was revealing God in the process of living out his own life. God's wisdom was being manifested through him. Just like in the dreams and visions of the past, it was God revealing Himself, but this time, instead of a dream and vision, it was a real human being.

This is why I would disagree with your comparison of Christianity's concept of Jesus to Greek mythology. Also, consider an example passage.

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Galatians 26-27

The New Testament has a few passages explaining how by becoming "spiritual descendents" of Jesus we inherit the benefits God gave to Jesus. We become "sons of God" because we become spiritual descendents of Jesus. We inherit his status. We inherit his home in heaven. God accepts us in the same way God accepts Jesus. This does not involve any biology or genealogy. It is entirely spiritual. We become spiritual descendents of Jesus by adopting the same attitude as him -- living and thinking like him.

Examples include Romans 4:11 and Galatians 3:29 where Paul explains how those whom God accepts because of faith are the spiritual descendents of Abraham. Paul is using this example to explain how we can become spiritual descendents of Jesus.

This "Son of God" theory I'm proposing is within the boundaries of Christianity, and since it doesn't agree with Greek mythology that comparison with Greek mythology doesn't work . . . So no, I don't agree with you that a "Son of God" theory necessary comes from Greek mythology. There are many "son of God" theories. It does not always involve biology or genealogy.

The "son of God" concept in Christianity does not involve biology or genealogy. Jesus being the "Son of God" has nothing to do with biology or genealogy.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The "son of God" concept in Christianity does not involve biology or genealogy. Jesus being the "Son of God" has nothing to do with biology or genealogy.

Yeah, but the Messiah thing is all about geneology. Interestingly, Matthew and Luke don't agree on who Jesus' grandpa was. Funny that there was such an emphasis on paternal geneology when Jesus' Daddy wasn't human.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Zaakir, I will try to answer your question in my next post. First though I want to point out that people have been trying to answer your questions. Perhaps the reason you are not satisfied is that you seem to be trying to make sense of Christianity through a muslim framework. This will never work.

Don't know about anybody else but I have no desire to "shoot you down in flames" If you are happy within Islam then that's great.

I'm not sure where this desire to bash Christianity comes from.
You will not be the first to have unanswered questions regarding Christianity, you will not be the first to have reservations, and you will not be the first who can make Christianity look like foolishness.

He had his questions answered over 7 different threads. He simply refuses to accept them until they align with his way of thinking (Islam). Your call.

v/r

Q

[Zaakir]

i dont think many questions gave been answered....if you look over the past two pages i have written, no one seems to know?!i did however at one point accept jesus was the son of god...and that he was god, but it was by reading th bible that changed my mind, if you look with an open mind, then you start to see differences in the gospels and things concerning jesus and things taht can be thought to mean his prophecy....im not closed minded atall...i have been christian longer than muslim.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

i dont think many questions gave been answered....if you look over the past two pages i have written, no one seems to know?!i did however at one point accept jesus was the son of god...and that he was god, but it was by reading th bible that changed my mind, if you look with an open mind, then you start to see differences in the gospels and things concerning jesus and things taht can be thought to mean his prophecy....im not closed minded atall...i have been christian longer than muslim.

If you look with an open mind, you might find what you are looking for.

But to cause others to stumble along the way, is not good.

It is unfair, to attempt to strip away another's belief, simply because you no-longer believe, or have doubt.

You might say that is tough, but I think it is wrong...I also know it is against the Code of Conduct here at CR. I personally don't care what God you believe in. That is your business. But you will not continue to cause doubt (prosyletize), your new found faith, in places you used to be comfortable in. You do not have that license.

v/r

Q

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Yeah, but the Messiah thing is all about geneology. Interestingly, Matthew and Luke don't agree on who Jesus' grandpa was. Funny that there was such an emphasis on paternal geneology when Jesus' Daddy wasn't human.

Chris

I was thinking that because Jesus was really an adopted son, the genealogy of his foster parents isn't really his own. In that sense, he has no genealogy.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

SALTMEISTER:
You said Jesus was the firstborn…I challenge you and beg you to say that you can say 100% that god never said this in old testament about 5 times….refer to previous chats I have had…like the one above that NO ONE has replied to yet!!!!

The "firstborn" over all creation is "the first to come", "the first to be created" or "first fruits."

Originally Posted by Zaakir

You said: Jesus inherited God's holy character and personality.
Ok…so was Jesus not god until he inherited these qualities…but I thought somebody said that Jesus was always part of god before he came to earth…if he wasn’t then why did the religion change from 1 god to three?

God projected the Logos (a Greek word meaning Wisdom/Reasoning) through Jesus. There is a part of Jesus that came from God -- the Logos. God Himself is the Father, and the name "Father" describes God as "The Source." The Holy Spirit is the Spiritos (Greek word for "divine breath of God"). Father, Logos and Spiritos are all aspects of God's nature. God is a Spirit. At the same time, Logos is God's Wisdom and Reasoning and God is the Source (Father). Because they are three abstract concepts of God, and they are really concepts of a God that is One. We are simply using these three concepts as a way of discerning what we observe about God.

There is a part of Jesus that is separate from God and a part of Jesus that is also a part of God. That is God's Logos.

Originally Posted by Zaakir

You say SAME PERSONALITY ok…where in the bible does this say this? Suppose it does…the personality and therefore the person of Jesus was tempted by the devil for 4o days and nights…so god was tempted by the devil…

No, God wasn't tempted by the devil, but a human being with His Logos was tempted by the devil.

Originally Posted by Zaakir

I know its confusing when I say god…but assume I mean ‘the father’ but god in Christianity…as I was brought up in my Christian beliefs was that the father, son and holy spirit are one.

I think what we mean is that something close to that is one: the Father, Logos and Spiritos are One.

Originally Posted by Zaakir

God is not a person! And also you clearly stated two persons…what about the third???? isn’t he important? Ascribing the word person to god is ascribing He is human, which can I ask…do you not find this an insult?

I don't use the word "person" to mean "human"!!! I use the word "person" to denote anything that is self-aware, has intelligence, has a mind of its own and possesses character, personality and behaviour. Apparently we assign different meanings to the same words . . .

The third "person," the Holy Spirit, is not considered as a "Person" by all Christians. After all, it is the Spiritos, the divine breath of God, the Radiance of God. In addition, as the meaning of the word "person" can be subjective, it depends on the individual's views. I think some flexibility is needed in the use of words, depending on what kinds of Christians you meet.

Originally Posted by Zaakir

Also you actually answered a question about giving god a face…what I mean is basic and people read into it far to much! Jesus is part of the trinity? Jesus is therefore god…(here I’m calling god the trinity…not the father)so if Jesus is god and we see paintings and statues in churches…this is a picture. An image of what people think he looks like…as he is god then this statue is god…fare enough., god the son…but nevertheless god…so this statue is god!!!

The question has been answered by Katimarie, Cavalier, Juantoo3 and me. I think they and I have already told you what you wanted to know.

It is not Jesus, but the Logos, that is part of God. The Logos is the Divine Wisdom which is part of both Jesus and God but belongs to God. There is really no Trinity: the Father, Logos and Spiritos are One. We just call it "the Trinity."