giving jesus a face means your giving god a face? - Page 7

Quahom1 · 07-29-2006, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~:MOK:~

QUOTE]Zaakir, do you know that in Islam Allah has a "shin"?[

I don't think you can compare Jesus' image to Allah having a metaphorical shin, those two things are not akin.

Also, this may seem like an attack, but it isnt: Doesn't it seem odd that Jesus is depicted as being white? Do you guys not question things like that?[/quote]

People tend to give Jesus a "face" they can identify with...

Zaakir · 07-29-2006, 09:45 PM

christians, jews, muslims, ever heard of the saying, in His hands....does this mean God has a hand like ours, or even a hand atall...no it doesnt...
therefore the word shin is used in the same context...Allah Himself chose to use the word shin...
the question at first i started was
giving jesus a face means your giving god a face?
no one has said yes or no...if jesus is God...then the fact he has a appearance in churches and generally...(the picture im sure were all aware with.... http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus ..) means christians are giving God a representation, as jesus is God...why do people need to give jesus a face they can identify with?if jesus is God then why do you need to know what he looks like to worship him?...cant christians just focus on God, without knowing what he looks like, i know its a human thing...suchas in hinduism for example, but i dont get it...was wandering whether anyone knew if this was truly acceptable in all sects of christianity?

Quahom1 · 07-29-2006, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

christians, jews, muslims, ever heard of the saying, in His hands....does this mean God has a hand like ours, or even a hand atall...no it doesnt...
therefore the word shin is used in the same context...Allah Himself chose to use the word shin...
the question at first i started was
giving jesus a face means your giving god a face?
no one has said yes or no...if jesus is God...then the fact he has a appearance in churches and generally...(the picture im sure were all aware with.... http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus ..) means christians are giving God a representation, as jesus is God...why do people need to give jesus a face they can identify with?if jesus is God then why do you need to know what he looks like to worship him?...cant christians just focus on God, without knowing what he looks like, i know its a human thing...suchas in hinduism for example, but i dont get it...was wandering whether anyone knew if this was truly acceptable in all sects of christianity?

Again, that is your opinion. If God wants hands, He can have hands. If Christians want a face to go with God, perhaps it is because they want a personal relationship with God. They want intimacy with their "father in heaven". The term "Abba" is not used as a general descriptor of God. It is a term of indearment and respect from a child to the parent.

Jesus on the other hand presents Himself as Groom, brother, redeemer. Again it is a form of intimacy between God and man. There is nothing wrong with that. I personally do not want an asture, cold, indifferent God. I prefer the God that takes me to heart.

my thoughts

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~:MOK:~ · 07-29-2006, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Again, that is your opinion. If God wants hands, He can have hands. If Christians want a face to go with God, perhaps it is because they want a personal relationship with God. They want intimacy with their "father in heaven". The term "Abba" is not used as a general descriptor of God. It is a term of indearment and respect from a child to the parent.

Jesus on the other hand presents Himself as Groom, brother, redeemer. Again it is a form of intimacy between God and man. There is nothing wrong with that. I personally do not want an asture, cold, indifferent God. I prefer the God that takes me to heart.

my thoughts

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I think its important to remember that God is not our friend per se until the time is ready. What I mean by that is that He is more like a Father to us, guiding us and teaching us. We may not like having to pray 5 times a day or prohibit great tasting pork (yes i've tried it) from our diet, but in the end, it is for our own good and only as we grow older can a sincere friendship with God flourish. Only when you are old enough and enlightened enough are you able to shed the "obedience because He says" and turn it into "Doing what is right simply because it is right".

Zaakir · 07-29-2006, 11:34 PM

im not debating the fact that if God wants hands, he can have them...im using that statement in terms of and side by side with Islam saying God has a shin

BlaznFattyz · 07-30-2006, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

im not debating the fact that if God wants hands, he can have them...im using that statement in terms of and side by side with Islam saying God has a shin

god the father is in heaven in his true form, not that he is limited there, but because or sinful nature limits us from seeing god the father, lest we die from his infinite glory.

however, because god wants us to personally know him, he sent his son. god who is all powerful, has a way to reconcile man back to him. and god and the holy spirit proclaim the name of jesus as saviour.

it is thru his son and the holy spirit that the gap between an unknowable, unattainable, holy and righteous god in heaven, with whom we are unworthy and not able to see. with christ and the holy spirit, god can be seen, known, and we can have a personal relationship with him. this is the extent of gods love for us.

the spirit of christ is the same spirit of god. those that honor the son, honor the father that has proclaimed him. those that deny the son, deny the father that sent him. all those that see the works of the son, and believe in him, have seen the father. it is spiritual, and we worship in spirit that which we know.

Saltmeister · 07-30-2006, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

giving jesus a face means your giving god a face?

no one has said yes or no...if jesus is God...means christians are giving God a representation

as jesus is God...why do people need to give jesus a face they can identify with?if jesus is God then why do you need to know what he looks like to worship him?...cant christians just focus on God, without knowing what he looks like, i know its a human thing...suchas in hinduism for example, but i dont get it...was wandering whether anyone knew if this was truly acceptable in all sects of christianity?

True, Jesus is a representation of God, but just because he represents God and has a face, is a human being, has hands and legs doesn't mean we believe God also has a face, hands or legs.

I would say yes that he is a representation of God.
I would say no that a representation of God means God has a face, hands and legs and is a human being.

Jesus being a representation of God has nothing to do with his human characteristics. It's his character and personality that makes him a representation of God, that he is a symbol for God in what he says and does. He leads people the way God would lead people. He talks to people as God would. He loves and respects people as God would.

A representation is only a representation. The image I see in a mirror represents me but is not really me, but is only a projection of me. Yet, if someone was to observe me and watch me in the mirror, or watch a video of me, or see me on television, they would be able to learn a lot about me. This is despite the fact that the image they see, is not really me, but a projection of me.

We use Jesus to learn about God even though Jesus isn't really God but a projection of him. Jesus is like a learning tool.

We learn about God and understand God by studying Jesus.

We could perhaps see it this way: By understanding Jesus, by understanding the Messiah, we can understand God. Also, understanding Jesus also allows us to understand ourselves. He is a symbol and paradigm of both God and Man. That's why he's called "Son of God" and "Son of Man" at the same time. He is the one who allows us to understand both God and Man. Jesus was a "paradigmal bridge of understanding" between God and Man.

aburaees · 07-30-2006, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~:MOK:~

I don't think you can compare Jesus' image to Allah having a metaphorical shin, those two things are not akin.

Also, this may seem like an attack, but it isnt: Doesn't it seem odd that Jesus is depicted as being white? Do you guys not question things like that?

How do you know that Allah's shin is metaphorical?
Jesus was Jewish, and from my experience Jewish people aren't that dissimilar to Europeans/Romans in appearance... except maybe the Falasha (spelling?) Jews.

.

Quahom1 · 07-30-2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~:MOK:~

I think its important to remember that God is not our friend per se until the time is ready. What I mean by that is that He is more like a Father to us, guiding us and teaching us. We may not like having to pray 5 times a day or prohibit great tasting pork (yes i've tried it) from our diet, but in the end, it is for our own good and only as we grow older can a sincere friendship with God flourish. Only when you are old enough and enlightened enough are you able to shed the "obedience because He says" and turn it into "Doing what is right simply because it is right".

Agreed, to a point. God the father is our teacher and guide, and disciplinarian. God, to Christians, manifested in Jesus, is where God becomes our life long "friend". Hence the term "greater love hath no one than he who lays his life down for his friends". And like you state, we must grow and mature to the point where we do what is right because it is right, however the Christian view is that Jesus helps guide us through the "baby steps", always encouraging us to continue on, and applauding our "accomplishments" (as small as they may be), to the point where we are mature enough (and strong and wise enough), to continue on our straight and narrow path to the Father.

again, these are my thoughts

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Quahom1 · 07-30-2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

im not debating the fact that if God wants hands, he can have them...im using that statement in terms of and side by side with Islam saying God has a shin

Does it truly matter whether God has a "shin" or not? Does that change the concept of God? Someone pointed out that if God is omnipresent and omnipotent, and omnisient, then God can and is at all places at all times, and is all things at once. He can also manifest Himself in all ways. Since He is the "Potter" He has rights that the "pottery" (that's us) do not have, and can do what He will without our questioning Him in the accusative.

We are all "cracked pottery", and what God wants of us is to simply state "I'm broken." And then He wants one question from us. "Will you fix me?" Not this is how I want you to fix me... Simply, "Will you fix me?" Once we surrender to that level, we've opened the door for God to come in and get to work on our lives, and allow God to reveal Himself to us, in the best light for each of us.

my thoughts

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Zaakir · 07-31-2006, 09:16 PM

a didnt want a lecture on christianity...i was christian for 18 years and beleived in it strongly...never thought i would become muslim....i know of all the christian things....
someone said that we cant see god because of out sinful nature...didint the prophet lot's a.s wife see gods hand?and the n she was turned to salt...so that theory is gone...
in christianity...it seems that more attention is focused on jesus a.s that god s.w.t
why did god have to send His 'son' to let us know Him?shouldnt we jsut pray, isnt that what faith is about...acceptance and sacrifice?

Abogado del Diablo · 08-01-2006, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hence the term "greater love hath no one than he who lays his life down for his friends".

Except he who lays his life down for his enemies.

BlaznFattyz · 08-01-2006, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

i know of all the christian things....
why did god have to send His 'son' to let us know Him?shouldnt we jsut pray, isnt that what faith is about...acceptance and sacrifice?

seems to me that if you know of all christian things, you wouldnt need to ask such questions.

the reason god sent his son, is because he gave man freewill, and man chose to sin. later on, god called out his chosen people whom he would later use to bring about the saviour. he gave them the laws to follow, and a temple to sacrifice and worship in to forgive the sins of the people. these laws were gods laws, so they are holy and righteous just like god. however, his chosen people could not follow the laws, and the payment was death. just like adam could not obey god, he also died. the sacrifices had lost their significance because they just became insincere rituals and man kept sinning. to reconcile man back to god, jesus christ came as the saviour to help man with his shortcomings. he accomplished all that man could not do. he was sinless, and perfect, and was pleasing in the eyes of god. his spirit was the spirit of god dwelling fully within him. because christ died and rose again, he conquered death, because he is everlasting life, and he sits at the right hand of god. it is in his name alone we are saved and reconciled back to god if we believe in and have faith in him, he is our high priest that forgives us of our sins through his sacrifice.

to just pray puts us back at the very beginning where man's sinful nature and prayers are not enough to reach and reconcile us back to a holy and righteous god. we were already given that chance and man blew it. it is only through acceptance that we are sinners, and fall short of the glory of god, do we then realize that god made it possible for us to be saved, and that is thru his son, jesus christ. he is the way, the truth, and the life.

there is no need for anymore sacrifice, as god sent his son to pay the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. faith needs to be in the son that god has proclaimed. the way has already been paved, it cannot be taken back, and there cannot be made by us another way. all the prophets, john the baptist, jesus, the holy spirit and god himself, all proclaim the name of jesus, the son of god.

Quahom1 · 08-01-2006, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Except he who lays his life down for his enemies.

And thus heaps hot coals upon his head...

Quahom1 · 08-01-2006, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

a didnt want a lecture on christianity...i was christian for 18 years and beleived in it strongly...never thought i would become muslim....i know of all the christian things....
someone said that we cant see god because of out sinful nature...didint the prophet lot's a.s wife see gods hand?and the n she was turned to salt...so that theory is gone...
in christianity...it seems that more attention is focused on jesus a.s that god s.w.t
why did god have to send His 'son' to let us know Him?shouldnt we jsut pray, isnt that what faith is about...acceptance and sacrifice?

All good. What makes you think we want a lecture on why we should convert to Islam? Zaakir, you don't want a lecture on anything. You wish to do the lecturing. What you express is conflict and strife, and you imply everyone is stupid, wayward, bass ackwards, ignorant, while you are enlightened...really, you think that is going to get people to see things your way?

You keep using Biblical references, to meet your own ends. My friend, we are not stupid here. We understand our scripture a little better than you think. Faith is not something most people change like, one brand name running shoe to another, just because it may feel better at the moment.

As far as knowing all the Christian things...well, you apparently are a much more intelligent and philisophical person than me. I've been studying faiths for 40 years, and I still haven't got everything down pat, especially in my own Christian faith...

Oh, and Lot's wife disobeyed a "DIRECT" command from God, that is why she became sodium Chloride...you really do need to brush up on your Biblical stories.

Jesus is the center of Christianity...Without Jesus there would be no Christianity, nor would their be Islam...how about that one?

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