giving jesus a face means your giving god a face? - Page 8

Zaakir · 08-01-2006, 01:02 PM

when i said i knew chrsitian stuff, i was merely talking about general points. but as far i knew there wasnt much more than that...without jesus there would be islam, as islam has existed from day one, Adam a.s wasa muslim, as he submitted in worship to Allah s.w.t therefore was muslim. without Allah there would be no islam i think you mean, as for the lecturing thing...i think your right, i was lectured on christianity so much, and now i found islam, i think itd be nice to help others...i mean...before i became muslim i spent a lot more time at the church praying...and i did feel happy and good about myself for doing that, but when you look deep down at fundemental issues, you see these are followed in islam. im sure the jews would never have ascibed partners to god, but they did though, as did some of the jews who became christians, in early jewish beleifs and scriptures i think they were looking for a messiah...not an offspring of god...just because god sent His 'son' down as a sacrifice for us...why does that mean we shouldnt sacrifice for Him?that was His sacrifice not ours...so if He sacrificed something that huge for us, as well as giving us life, death, evry little thing we own in this world, then surely we should do some sacrifice to Him, praying is not a sacrifice...i think someone said thats how we show sacrifice...praying is a neccesity...something which i found a huge difference in between islam and christianity...it seems in christianity, even when i was a christian, which i never really could understand or did...but so much emphasis is laid on jesus and not god...it seems people think its all about forgivness and love, jesus not god...when i prayed i prayed to god...not to jesus..i dont know if other peopel do it, but religion and faith etc is about god isnt it...not jesus..jesus didnt create the heavens and the earth, jesus was a mere creation of god, jesus died then rose again...god doesnt die

bananabrain · 08-01-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Jesus was Jewish, and from my experience Jewish people aren't that dissimilar to Europeans/Romans in appearance... except maybe the Falasha (spelling?) Jews.

aburaees - jews come in all shades from white to black to yellow, just like muslims. we've been around a long time and have lived in a lot of different places. i myself am of bombay iraqi extraction so you'd be likely to mistake me for anything from spanish/italian/portuguese to indeed kashmiri or iranian. jesus certainly wouldn't have looked like jim caviezel though!

btw: "falasha" is not a polite term - it means "outsider". the ethiopian jews refer to themselves as "beta israel".

http://www.bh.org.il/names/ethiopianames.asp

b'shalom

bananabrain

aburaees · 08-01-2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananabrain

aburaees - jews come in all shades from white to black to yellow, just like muslims. we've been around a long time and have lived in a lot of different places. i myself am of bombay iraqi extraction so you'd be likely to mistake me for anything from spanish/italian/portuguese to indeed kashmiri or iranian. jesus certainly wouldn't have looked like jim caviezel though!

btw: "falasha" is not a polite term - it means "outsider". the ethiopian jews refer to themselves as "beta israel".

http://www.bh.org.il/names/ethiopianames.asp

b'shalom

bananabrain

Thank you for teaching me, I got the term "falasha" from a CR Book and was ignorant of the meaning.

I understand that Jews can be as varied in appearance as Muslims, I just assumed that an Aramaic Jew (i.e. Jesus) could have been difficult to distinguish from a mediterranean of any other country and it's not entirely unreasonable for an Italian or a Grecian to portray Jesus in their "image".

It's also interesting to note that the Gospel namesakes of Mark and Luke have Roman names. Italians nowadays couldn't be blamed for imagining that Mark and Luke would have looked like their fellow countrymen.

When a person asks a Christian why Jesus is depicted as "white", I wonder if they're including mediterraneans in their "white" group or are they just asking about anglo-americans? I mean, from UK through to Iran... where is the cut-off point for this "white" designation?

It's interesting that you can be mistaken for so many different peoples, I've been mistaken for Scottish, and Syrian!!

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Quahom1 · 08-02-2006, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

when i said i knew chrsitian stuff, i was merely talking about general points. but as far i knew there wasnt much more than that...without jesus there would be islam, as islam has existed from day one, Adam a.s wasa muslim, as he submitted in worship to Allah s.w.t therefore was muslim. without Allah there would be no islam i think you mean, as for the lecturing thing...i think your right, i was lectured on christianity so much, and now i found islam, i think itd be nice to help others...i mean...before i became muslim i spent a lot more time at the church praying...and i did feel happy and good about myself for doing that, but when you look deep down at fundemental issues, you see these are followed in islam. im sure the jews would never have ascibed partners to god, but they did though, as did some of the jews who became christians, in early jewish beleifs and scriptures i think they were looking for a messiah...not an offspring of god...just because god sent His 'son' down as a sacrifice for us...why does that mean we shouldnt sacrifice for Him?that was His sacrifice not ours...so if He sacrificed something that huge for us, as well as giving us life, death, evry little thing we own in this world, then surely we should do some sacrifice to Him, praying is not a sacrifice...i think someone said thats how we show sacrifice...praying is a neccesity...something which i found a huge difference in between islam and christianity...it seems in christianity, even when i was a christian, which i never really could understand or did...but so much emphasis is laid on jesus and not god...it seems people think its all about forgivness and love, jesus not god...when i prayed i prayed to god...not to jesus..i dont know if other peopel do it, but religion and faith etc is about god isnt it...not jesus..jesus didnt create the heavens and the earth, jesus was a mere creation of god, jesus died then rose again...god doesnt die

Zaakir, please. I mean this in the gentlest of terms. Islam has not existed since day one. It took Muhammad to bring the many gods that the Arabian penninsula peoples believed in, into one Supreme being. Even the name Allah, is a variation on a theme of another god (that was a big god, but not the God of gods). Adam submitted to no one. Had he done so, we wouldn't be having the problems we are having on earth today with mankind.

Islam came with your Prophet Muhammad.

Christianity did not exist with Adam. It took a second "Adam" Jesus to help us get it together, and realize what Christians believe today (whether you accept it or not is your business).

Judeasm did not exist with Adam. It took Abraham to bring about a "Hebrew" faith in one GOD, and it took Moses to even begin the possibility. And for 40 years it was touch and go with Moses and the group he was leading...By the way, the term "Jew" did not alway refer to a particular belief in God. It is the offshoot of the only existing main tribe of Israel (of which there were twelve), and it is a term that was used to describe a person of the "kingdom" of Judea, when Israel split in two over 2700 years ago.

So when you come off like you have all the answers...sometimes it doesn't work in your favor.

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aburaees · 08-02-2006, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Even the name Allah, is a variation on a theme of another god (that was a big god, but not the God of gods).

With all due respect Quahom, it would be dangerous (from a Christian Pov) to state that Allah wasn't "The God". Seeing as there is a difference of opinion amongst "experts", it would be wise not to make that assumption. It has been said that Allah is the arabic transliteration of the Aramaic Alaha (which Jesus cried out on the cross when he said "Elahi, Elahi..."), and this opinion is no less valid than the opinion that Allah is a contraction of Al-Ilah.

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Zaakir · 08-02-2006, 07:58 PM

Quohom…Islam has existed since day one, maybe not the name, but the principles and nature of the faith, ie…submission to the one true Allah…the Quran tells us Islam started with Adam a.s….Adam a.s did worship god in Christianity didn’t he?he just made a sin…im sure you sinned, does that mean that you don’t worship god?…where in the bible, torah or Quran does it say that Adam a.s did not submit to Allah, where does it say he didn’t worship Allah? I looked and cannot find it, religion has been here since day one…why wouldn’t it be? Adam was here at day one…he submitted to Allah, knowing that he committed a sin, but submitted in worship, he was a Muslim, as were all the prophets a.s as they all submitted in worship to Allah s.w.t…what you say about the name of Allah is ridiculous!I read that before I was Muslim, but its is rubbish!its something that has been made up by people against Islam to try and make it sound false. such as people saying that we pray to a box…its all rubbish…the name Allah has come from Allah s.w.t, it is a much better name than God, as anything can be a god cant it, I could worship a statue and call it my god…whereas Allah has more meaning than this, it means one, the creator etc and is the name He alone chose to give Himself, and can be found to be an Arabic translation of the jewish name for god I heard somewhere.
“RELIGION IN THE SIGHT OF ALLAH IS ISLAM”
The Quran tells us . Therefore when people say, for instance, Abraham was a jew this may not be totally wrong, as that was the name that people gave the religion at the time, but they submitted to the one Allah, but they were Muslims at that time, the religion just hadn’t developed, in that Isa a.s and Muhammad s.a.w hadn’t come yet, when Isa a.s had come, then they were still Muslims, but the religion was in the form of Judaism, some people did not follow him and it was Christianity, but as we know, there were 2 forms, the one we know today dominated, then Muhammad s.a.w came and established the final word of Allah s.w.t, and called people out of the dark into the light so to speak. Ie, made the pagans see that there is one true Allah, the Christians, who I personally believe became ‘corrupted’ into believing Isa a.s was Allah’s son, into believing and seeing the word of Allah, so I don’t think between Isa and Muhammad there were any Muslims, as none believed in the one true Allah did they?…so to answer what you said, yes Islam started from Adam as he did worship Allah and this is what Islam means…and, the name Islam came with Muhammad s.a.w, as revealed to him in the Quran

Quahom1 · 08-03-2006, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aburaees

With all due respect Quahom, it would be dangerous (from a Christian Pov) to state that Allah wasn't "The God". Seeing as there is a difference of opinion amongst "experts", it would be wise not to make that assumption. It has been said that Allah is the arabic transliteration of the Aramaic Alaha (which Jesus cried out on the cross when he said "Elahi, Elahi..."), and this opinion is no less valid than the opinion that Allah is a contraction of Al-Ilah.

.

Actually what I state is not my opinion but a "fact" as expressed in sociological and historical references , that do not seem to take a stance on any particular religious belief.

For example:

"Allah is found. . .in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam." Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643.And
"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name. . ." Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117. "Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities." Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Gibb, I:406.

Since I'm pointing out what is written and not my opinion, I find nothing dangerous about expressing that...

Really, that would be like stating it would be dangerous from a Muslim POV to claim that Jesus is not God to a Christian...

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Quahom1 · 08-03-2006, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

Quohom…Islam has existed since day one, maybe not the name, but the principles and nature of the faith, ie…submission to the one true Allah…the Quran tells us Islam started with Adam a.s….Adam a.s did worship god in Christianity didn’t he?he just made a sin…im sure you sinned, does that mean that you don’t worship god?…where in the bible, torah or Quran does it say that Adam a.s did not submit to Allah, where does it say he didn’t worship Allah? I looked and cannot find it, religion has been here since day one…why wouldn’t it be? Adam was here at day one…he submitted to Allah, knowing that he committed a sin, but submitted in worship, he was a Muslim, as were all the prophets a.s as they all submitted in worship to Allah s.w.t…what you say about the name of Allah is ridiculous!I read that before I was Muslim, but its is rubbish!its something that has been made up by people against Islam to try and make it sound false. such as people saying that we pray to a box…its all rubbish…the name Allah has come from Allah s.w.t, it is a much better name than God, as anything can be a god cant it, I could worship a statue and call it my god…whereas Allah has more meaning than this, it means one, the creator etc and is the name He alone chose to give Himself, and can be found to be an Arabic translation of the jewish name for god I heard somewhere.
“RELIGION IN THE SIGHT OF ALLAH IS ISLAM”
The Quran tells us . Therefore when people say, for instance, Abraham was a jew this may not be totally wrong, as that was the name that people gave the religion at the time, but they submitted to the one Allah, but they were Muslims at that time, the religion just hadn’t developed, in that Isa a.s and Muhammad s.a.w hadn’t come yet, when Isa a.s had come, then they were still Muslims, but the religion was in the form of Judaism, some people did not follow him and it was Christianity, but as we know, there were 2 forms, the one we know today dominated, then Muhammad s.a.w came and established the final word of Allah s.w.t, and called people out of the dark into the light so to speak. Ie, made the pagans see that there is one true Allah, the Christians, who I personally believe became ‘corrupted’ into believing Isa a.s was Allah’s son, into believing and seeing the word of Allah, so I don’t think between Isa and Muhammad there were any Muslims, as none believed in the one true Allah did they?…so to answer what you said, yes Islam started from Adam as he did worship Allah and this is what Islam means…and, the name Islam came with Muhammad s.a.w, as revealed to him in the Quran

But that is just it. With Adam and the first people, there was NO religions. They had a more or less direct link with God.

And I understand what you mean by "religion in the sight of Allah is Islam". In other words religious belief and adherence to the laws of God (Allah), is to "submit" to the will of God.

However, I do not believe you can convince me of the existence of Islam (as we understand it today), or Christianity or Judeasm or any other religous belief, was at the time of Adam, nor for a few millenia after.

Muslims can claim that Islam was the religious preference of Adam, but then others can state the same claim, that Adam was a Proto-(fill in the blank), which later developed into what we understand today. But a claim is not the same as evidence.

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Zaakir · 08-03-2006, 09:08 AM

ok...so the 5 pillars would not have been known by adam maybe...nor would Muhammadur rasool Allah...but he did submit to Allah...i think adam had a pretty good direct link with god dont you, becasue he was a prophet, so god gave him rules etc and guided him....fare anough...there were maybe only few little rules/laws given by Allah s.w.t to Adam a.s and no religion per say, as people would not have said i am jew, or christian, or muslim, becasue all the beleifs were not here yet...but it has to start some where, and it began with Adam a.s, i dont get how as a christian you beleive taht Adam was not a worshipper of god?just beacuse some one has a link with god, you cnt say there was no religion, because there was a beleif, and this is what religion is about, faith and beleif. i always thought as christian that Adam was a follower of god?in islam this is exactly the same...he is therefore a muslim...maybe he didnt call himself a muslim, jew or christian, but he did what a muslim does...worship in submission to Allah s.w.t .....at the time of Adam this is all taht would ahve been needed, except good deeds to be a muslim, as nothing else was established...last year...i started studying physics...on the 1st day...i hadnt learnt anything...this means then i am not a student till it is finalised?

Zaakir · 08-03-2006, 09:15 AM

Allah's name is not from idols. i came across this info when i researched into islam, there was a lot of rubbish a christian site had written...also they christians with 3 gods had the cheek to say islam was polytheistic!...you'll say you dont have 3 gods...you pray seperately to all3...you pray to angels and saimnts right?how can you pray to other than god?

Saltmeister · 08-03-2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But that is just it. With Adam and the first people, there was NO religions. They had a more or less direct link with God.

And I understand what you mean by "religion in the sight of Allah is Islam". In other words religious belief and adherence to the laws of God (Allah), is to "submit" to the will of God.

Muslims can claim that Islam was the religious preference of Adam, but then others can state the same claim, that Adam was a Proto-(fill in the blank), which later developed into what we understand today. But a claim is not the same as evidence.

I think what Zaakir is suggesting that "Islam is a self-evident religion of God." Because Zaakir is expressing the sentiment of something self-evident, he is expressing the idea of something that has always existed (in his view), since the self-evident is eternal.

Since Islam revolves around the notion of submission, perhaps what Muslims mean when they say that Islam has existed from the beginning is that they believe submission to God has always been the best and most appropriate mode of interaction with God. Just as Christians see a personal spiritual leader (Jesus) as the best and most appropriate concept in understanding and appreciating God, ourselves and what God has created, Muslims see submission as what holds it all together.

Religions can be considered pre-existent if you believe they possess eternal, self-evident concepts that have been truths from the very beginning of creation. Even before these concepts were expressed or explained to people, the truths already existed. It depends which way you look at it. If you see religion as having a beginning (introduction and propagation), you would say that religion doesn't exist until it's introduced. If you reckon religion is timeless, you would be more likely to accept a claim that something was eternal or existed from the beginning.

In that sense, a religion doesn't start existing when it is first preached and taught. Instead, it exists even before it is introduced into the world.

I guess the reason why we would want to think that a religion only starts existing when it's introduced is because we somehow think it's unfair for people to be judged by a religion before they have even heard of it.

However, we could also say that if a religion is self-evident and eternal, then it's not something you read in a book. You have to discover it for yourself. You may not have heard of it before. No problem. No need to hear of it. No need to read of it. Discover for yourself what that religion is!!! Perhaps we should stop being consumers, stop letting other people tell us what a religion should be like. We seem to expect someone in the world to know how to connect to God. We expect, so much, for other people to tell us how to be God's people that we can't come up with our own insights.

Zaakir · 08-03-2006, 02:39 PM

dats right...adam a.s was in submission to god thereforewas a muslim..tahts all it is...maybe not in the sense of the name, but in the sense of the action/thoughts...

Quahom1 · 08-03-2006, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

ok...so the 5 pillars would not have been known by adam maybe...nor would Muhammadur rasool Allah...but he did submit to Allah...i think adam had a pretty good direct link with god dont you, becasue he was a prophet, so god gave him rules etc and guided him....fare anough...there were maybe only few little rules/laws given by Allah s.w.t to Adam a.s and no religion per say, as people would not have said i am jew, or christian, or muslim, becasue all the beleifs were not here yet...but it has to start some where, and it began with Adam a.s, i dont get how as a christian you beleive taht Adam was not a worshipper of god?just beacuse some one has a link with god, you cnt say there was no religion, because there was a beleif, and this is what religion is about, faith and beleif. i always thought as christian that Adam was a follower of god?in islam this is exactly the same...he is therefore a muslim...maybe he didnt call himself a muslim, jew or christian, but he did what a muslim does...worship in submission to Allah s.w.t .....at the time of Adam this is all taht would ahve been needed, except good deeds to be a muslim, as nothing else was established...last year...i started studying physics...on the 1st day...i hadnt learnt anything...this means then i am not a student till it is finalised?

First, I think the "five pillars of Islam" is a fantastic base for any human to consider and follow (except pilgrimage would be to the holy places of origin particular to the individual making it, which might not include Mecca).

Second, I truly believe Adam lost his "good link" with God, because of his choosing Eve over God. So, instead of walking physically with God on a daily basis as he once had that privilege, he was now left with the occasional direct presense of God. (perhaps due to God's refusal to accept "sin". And there is no where that I know of that "ADAM" prophesised, therefore he was no "Prophet".

Third, I am by NO MEANS, implying that your concept of God (Allah) as you understand Him today, is pagan or false. I simply pointed out that the "title" given to God by Muslims today, is a variation of a title given to a pagan god pre-Islam (who happened to be the chief god over 360 other gods in the middle east, before Muhammad ever stepped into the scene).

Fourth, If Adam "worshipped" God, then you and I would not be having this discussion. Same goes for Eve. But the fact is they did not "worship" God. They "rebelled" against Him, and broke God's great big heart. Now we are trying to mend that broken heart (but are not doing a very good job of it).

If you think Adam was a proto-Muslim, then that is fine. But then you have to consider that Adam, was not very good as a Muslim. In fact he broke the rules in a most grevious way...so did his "oldest son to Adam's youngest son" (in an even more grevious way), and Adam did nothing about it.

Under such conditions, I'm not so sure I would want to claim Adam or Eve (or both), as the beginnings of my faith in God...

Oh, and congratulations on your "comprehensive" studies in the world of "physics". You will definitely be left with more questions, than answers, even after you master that particular field of study.

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BlaznFattyz · 08-03-2006, 05:41 PM

If anything the history of adam resembles more the history of the jewish people, because adam was first, then given a law which he broke, an animal had to be sacrificed, thus spilled blood, to cover his sin, and was banished for his disobedience. themes which would later resurface with god's chosen people, the jews.

doing what god wants of us is out of love first and foremost, not submission. With love comes the wanting to be obedient, wanting to love others, and the wanting to please god out of your own volition, not coercion.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

If a man says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn't love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

Quahom1 · 08-03-2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaakir

Allah's name is not from idols. i came across this info when i researched into islam, there was a lot of rubbish a christian site had written...also they christians with 3 gods had the cheek to say islam was polytheistic!...you'll say you dont have 3 gods...you pray seperately to all3...you pray to angels and saimnts right?how can you pray to other than god?

But, my friend, I did not pull my "data" from a biased source. I garnered it from neutral references that could care less about any faith. You seem to keep ignoring that point. Please consider...

I also fail to see where you can opine that Christians believe in three gods. They/I, believe in ONE GOD...but understand the three "Manifestations" of that one God. And no, we do not pray TO saints and/or saints, as that would get one nothing.

It is a fact that pre-Islam (circa 700 AD/ACE), Arabs were a polytheistic people. I went and asked my father's neighbors who are Arabic and Muslim and from the the old country, the same thing. They confirmed that "fact". Before Muhammad, Arabian religous life was a managere of little gods overseen by a Chief God. Sounds a lot like proto-Judeasm and proto-Christianity.

Also, I wish to thank you personally, for not gving me a "WARNING" for speaking my mind, concerning Muslim issues, as has occured in the recent past. I don't take kindly (nor would you I suspect), to veiled threats. That kind of crud just makes for anger, not fear...

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