giving jesus a face means your giving god a face?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

If anything the history of adam resembles more the history of the jewish people, because adam was first, then given a law which he broke, an animal had to be sacrificed, thus spilled blood, to cover his sin, and was banished for his disobedience. themes which would later resurface with god's chosen people, the jews.

doing what god wants of us is out of love first and foremost, not submission. With love comes the wanting to be obedient, wanting to love others, and the wanting to please god out of your own volition, not coercion.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

If a man says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn't love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

Agreed to a point. The Jews were not the first. They were the chosen. In other words the Hebrews were not the first, but chosen. Ishmaelites were the first. Cain was the first, Able was the chosen.

As a first born, I understand this concept. Even when planned, the "first" is never the chosen, due to I guess, trial and error.

My parents for example, love me because I was the first. It is a love that is the strongest of loves. But my kid brother is the "chosen". He is the baby, and all mistakes made before are not in his upbrining. If parents could have a "crush" on their kids, then that is what my parents have on him.

But, I wouldn't trade places with my kid brother for love nor money, as I accept what I've been given (relish in it actually). because I am me.

Arabs at large were the first, Hebrews were the "chosen".

How ironic that the oldest of God's people have the youngest religious belief.

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Q

[BlaznFattyz]

the jews first was a comment in the context of christianity. the jews first, the gentiles second. to make myself clear.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Actually what I state is not my opinion but a "fact" as expressed in sociological and historical references , that do not seem to take a stance on any particular religious belief.

For example:

"Allah is found. . .in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam." Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643.And
"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name. . ." Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117. "Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities." Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Gibb, I:406.


Since I'm pointing out what is written and not my opinion, I find nothing dangerous about expressing that...

Really, that would be like stating it would be dangerous from a Muslim POV to claim that Jesus is not God to a Christian...

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Q

Sorry I'm late...

I still wouldn't call it "fact", what you've quoted is the opinion of many scholars but not all of them.

Encyclopedia Britannica Micropedia (Vol. 1; p. 250) states the following about Allah. "Etymologically, Allah is probably a contraction of the Arabic al-ilahh, "the God," although the Aramaic Alaha has also been proposed.

Popular entymology isn't the answer to everything, this type of technique can lead to people equating Biblical "Yahweh" with Canaanite "Yaw", or Biblical "Eheyah" to Sumerian "Ea", or Biblical "El" to Sumerian "Ellil". Would you be happy to go with any of these scholarly propositions?

However, it's possible that Allah isn't even an Arabic word at all... But an Arabized word i.e. Arabized version of the Aramaic/Syriac Alaha. Of course Allah was pre-Islamic, just as Alaha was pre-Islamic, just as Eloah was pre-Judaic.

Interestingly Alexander was Arabized (in a similar manner) to Al-Iskander.


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[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But, my friend, I did not pull my "data" from a biased source. I garnered it from neutral references that could care less about any faith. You seem to keep ignoring that point. Please consider...

First, what does the origin of the word someone chooses to use for the god have anything to do with anything? Are you suggesting that because they might have borrowed a "pagan" word, that Muslims are pagans? Do you celebrate Christmas? On what day? How about Easter? How is the date of Easter determined and why? What is the first religion to use eating bread as symbolic of eating their savior's body and drinking wine as symbolic of drinking their savior's blood? What is the origin of the word you use for "God"? How about "Jesus"? How about "Logos" or "the Word"? How about "Holy Spirit"?

Second, the idea that there was a common expression of the faith that was true for all eternity and revealed comparatively recently is also to be found in Christianity. Check out the Pastoral epistle 2 Tim. 1. There are also references in Paul's letters in which he re-interprets the actions of Abraham in submitting to God's demands in his Christian context. So the claims being made here should not look unusual to a Christian.

Third, for there to be a respectful dialogue there has to be an understanding that not everybody "believes" the same things. You find the Pillars of Islam "fantastic," but you must, by the same measure, be able to understand that others might reasonably find your religious assertions to be "fantastic" as well.

Fourth, I've seen plenty of unbiased sources who think the Trinity isn't monotheism. What difference does that make? None. Likewise, assertions on some Christian site that Islam isn't monotheism are equally pointless in this discussion because the Muslims you are currently corresponding with (just like you) do not subjectively adhere to anything they consider polytheistic.

My two cents.

Best regards.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Sorry I'm late...

I still wouldn't call it "fact", what you've quoted is the opinion of many scholars but not all of them.



Popular entymology isn't the answer to everything, this type of technique can lead to people equating Biblical "Yahweh" with Canaanite "Yaw", or Biblical "Eheyah" to Sumerian "Ea", or Biblical "El" to Sumerian "Ellil". Would you be happy to go with any of these scholarly propositions?

However, it's possible that Allah isn't even an Arabic word at all... But an Arabized word i.e. Arabized version of the Aramaic/Syriac Alaha. Of course Allah was pre-Islamic, just as Alaha was pre-Islamic, just as Eloah was pre-Judaic.

Interestingly Alexander was Arabized (in a similar manner) to Al-Iskander.


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And...what you state is not "fact", but an "Opinion". But trying to call your "opinion" fact is ludicrous. And I'm not the one on the "offensive here". You can call the Christian "God" anything you want. It is not going to break my heart any. But I digress.

Back to the original point of this post. Yes, we give God a face (we must), in order to identify with God (as we percieve Him). Interestingly enough, in Chrsitian learning, God's FACE, is yours, and yours, and yours, and mine...where is the harm in that?

"whatsoever you do, to the least of these, my bretheren, you do unto me..." by Jesus

Guess that means no matter who I am looking at...I see God...

Guess I'd better be nice, eh?

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Q

[Zaakir]

firstly...please show me a quote in the bible where it says Adam did not worship god.the last it says of adam is that he was banished out of paradise. in islam Adam was different from al lof gods other craetions as he had knowledge and was able to choose right or wrong, he chose wrong, just as we all do, he was sorry for his sins and worshiped Allah....in islam we know a lot more about Adam tahn told about him in christianity. you said Adam broke Allahs heart, Allah does not need anyone to worship Him, as for this, we all must braek gods heart then right...we all break rules, yet we dont care..Adam you say wasnt a good muslim, who are you to say he wasnt a good muslim, only Allah knows...i can hardly say im a good muslim...i dont know if you can say youre the perfect christian...non of us are perfect, so does this meen we dont beleive, like you say adam was like?no
why is adam written about in the bible, if you dont think hes a good start for a religion?
doing what god wants us to is submission, is agreeing to his will, is following His word.loving your brother is loving for the cause of Allah we see it as i islam as Allah has put you amongst this family...doing good is what Allah has commanded us to do, so is doing something in submission to Him.
i dotn agree personally the jews were 'chosen' so to speak, the jews beleive that god is just for them when this term is used, and that He was just for the israelites or wherever they came from. in islam we beleive its for evryone.i dont agree that jesus was a jew, abraham was a jew etc, they were all muslims in the sense they were in submission to Allah, the religion at the time jsut happend to be judaism, which in my eyes should have totaly become islam, as you beleive it would totaly become christianity?..i think in christianity you have a totaly different view to Adam, which is where our beleifs come from, but as a christian i never knew taht Adam didnt follow Allah, ithought he did a sin, and got forgiven, why else would eve say that she brought forth a child with the help of the lord?
and also in primary school, we always had prayers to say to saints, eg, saint patrick, augustine, fatima, bernadette, kentigern, i have a prayer book upstairs, where there are prayers to saints for help...

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

And...what you state is not "fact", but an "Opinion". But trying to call your "opinion" fact is ludicrous. And I'm not the one on the "offensive here". You can call the Christian "God" anything you want. It is not going to break my heart any. But I digress.

For the record, brother Quahom, I haven't presented my opinion as a fact. I merely stated that it was "possible" Allah's name had a different origin. I appreciate that you're not on an offensive, by the way.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Back to the original point of this post. Yes, we give God a face (we must), in order to identify with God (as we percieve Him). Interestingly enough, in Chrsitian learning, God's FACE, is yours, and yours, and yours, and mine...where is the harm in that?

"whatsoever you do, to the least of these, my bretheren, you do unto me..." by Jesus

Guess that means no matter who I am looking at...I see God...

Guess I'd better be nice, eh?

v/r

Q

I don't have a problem with God having a face... I was the one who mentioned Allah's shin, there are some Muslims who believe they will see God's face in the hereafter. Other Muslims believe they have seen HIM with their "mind's eye".

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[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

firstly...please show me a quote in the bible where it says Adam did not worship god.the last it says of adam is that he was banished out of paradise. in islam Adam was different from al lof gods other craetions as he had knowledge and was able to choose right or wrong, he chose wrong, just as we all do, he was sorry for his sins and worshiped Allah....in islam we know a lot more about Adam tahn told about him in christianity. you said Adam broke Allahs heart, Allah does not need anyone to worship Him, as for this, we all must braek gods heart then right...we all break rules, yet we dont care..Adam you say wasnt a good muslim, who are you to say he wasnt a good muslim, only Allah knows...i can hardly say im a good muslim...i dont know if you can say youre the perfect christian...non of us are perfect, so does this meen we dont beleive, like you say adam was like?no
why is adam written about in the bible, if you dont think hes a good start for a religion?
doing what god wants us to is submission, is agreeing to his will, is following His word.loving your brother is loving for the cause of Allah we see it as i islam as Allah has put you amongst this family...doing good is what Allah has commanded us to do, so is doing something in submission to Him.
i dotn agree personally the jews were 'chosen' so to speak, the jews beleive that god is just for them when this term is used, and that He was just for the israelites or wherever they came from. in islam we beleive its for evryone.i dont agree that jesus was a jew, abraham was a jew etc, they were all muslims in the sense they were in submission to Allah, the religion at the time jsut happend to be judaism, which in my eyes should have totaly become islam, as you beleive it would totaly become christianity?..i think in christianity you have a totaly different view to Adam, which is where our beleifs come from, but as a christian i never knew taht Adam didnt follow Allah, ithought he did a sin, and got forgiven, why else would eve say that she brought forth a child with the help of the lord?
and also in primary school, we always had prayers to say to saints, eg, saint patrick, augustine, fatima, bernadette, kentigern, i have a prayer book upstairs, where there are prayers to saints for help...

No, I'm not showing you anything. You show in the Bible where it states Adam worshipped God.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by aburaees

For the record, brother Quahom, I haven't presented my opinion as a fact. I merely stated that it was "possible" Allah's name had a different origin. I appreciate that you're not on an offensive, by the way

I don't have a problem with God having a face... I was the one who mentioned Allah's shin, there are some Muslims who believe they will see God's face in the hereafter. Other Muslims believe they have seen HIM with their "mind's eye".

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And I am not in anyway arguing with your thoughts on this matter.

[Zaakir]

in your bible, it doesnt say Adam didnt worship god, it doesnt say he did either, but eve does say that she gave birth with the help of her lord aka god...your bible doesnt say anythin gon the matter, my Quran does.if i asked a christian now if Adam beleived in and worshipped god then im pretty sure theyd say yes, as this is what i always thought. the way you put forth christianity view is taht becuase Adam did something wrong, he didnt worship god,, or god didnt want him?thats bizzare...cos i know this is not the case with me or you, or anyone

[Zaakir]

by the way...Adam was a prophet...he didnt bring forth any laws you say...this doesnt mean he wasnt a prophet, it means he wasnt a messenger..Abraham a.s 's nephew..or was it brother...cnt remember...dont know what you call him...he didnt bring a new law or any law, just preeched what Abraham did...but in both religions he was a prophet.a messenger brings a law.in islam there are differences between prophets and messengers