god gives hope for humanity?

[shadowman]

Gods solution isnt that great... its not like everyone who suffered on this earth gets the bliss of heaven. many people go to hell. since we cant control god but we can control our minds and wills, we should all be trying to make things better for everyone.

any hope for humanity that a christian could posess must be marred by the fact that many humans are going to hell.

unless of course all the people going to hell are the devils children.

If god didnt want people in hell, doesnt it make sense that he wouldnt create hell in the firstplace? Even hell for satan and his angels seems a bit strange, what does god get out of torturing his enemies for all time? what does he get out of letting humans be tortured for all time?

Isnt it strange that god values free will more than he values not letting anyone go to hell ?

(free will being the wonderful ability of us to reject or accept god, where rejection leads to hell...)

[shadowman]

even if one human ends up in hell, its a less than perfect plan.

[shadowman]

got some responses

me: any hope for humanity that a christian could posess must be marred by the fact that many humans are going to hell.

him: Are you alluding to the Fundamentalistic belief that even good people who lead charitable lives filled with love and altruism will go to Hell because 1. God predestined them to Hell without exceptions, 2. People commit the only punishable offense fit for Hell for not having correct belief.

me: unless of course all the people going to hell are the devils children.

him: The existence of devils or demons is an assumption that is not based on observation or any evidence of such a burning place unless we are talking about the molten magma in the mantle of the Earth. If God puts condemned dead humans into the magma under the Earth's crust, we have no way to tell that. Hell may have actually been "invented" in the imagination of primitive superstitious people because of their observation of volcanoes in which a fiery lake could be seen. In other places horizontal lava flows have been seen by humans. It is understandable that such a sight as horrific fire could be blamed on nasty gods. Yet in today's volcano craters and lava flows show no signs of human remains. Hell is the assumption that natural hot magma is really some nasty torture mechanism of gods.

me: If god didnt want people in hell, doesnt it make sense that he wouldnt create hell in the firstplace? Even hell for satan and his angels seems a bit strange, what does god get out of torturing his enemies for all time? what does he get out of letting humans be tortured for all time?

him: Aside from the fact that Hell is an unproven assumption, the very idea that a sentient being would be burned in a non-consuming fire for eternity for anything seems out of proportion. If the person so condemned is condemned because he/she failed to find the politically correct faith and worship the god with the correct name then the punishment is cruel and unusual and infinitely too horrible and sadistic for the simple sin of unbelief.

me: Isnt it strange that god values free will more than he values not letting anyone go to hell ?

him: Will is not free if one of two choices is wrong and leads to being thrown into Hell. Free will is not making a choice with God holding a .44 magnum against your temple.

me: (free will being the wonderful ability of us to reject or accept god, where rejection leads to hell...)

him: That is not free will as I have shown. Free Will is the freedom to choose to believe or not believe in something and not tortured or murdered for making the "wrong" choice. If God really is so insecure and narcissistic that the very existence of a human who doesn't believe in him, then he is a mentally ill being. Such an insane and violent god does not deserve the title "Supreme Being."

If you rent an house to a man and woman, and tell them you are a great comedian, but they fail to laugh at any of your jokes, do you shoot them.

me: even if one human ends up in hell, its a less than perfect plan.

him: Bingo!

[shadowman]

you need jesus, you need jesus!

why?

because without him you will go to hell?

why

its what god wants.


.................................................. ...................................

how much do we matter to god? hes gonna judge all of us. and if we didnt believe in him. BAM we go to hell. he gives us a chance while alive to accept him so he doesnt judge us the same way he judges everyone else.

and if we fail, thats it, eternal torment


this is not really describing someone who has our best interests in mind.


can we honestly say this is indicative of a good, loving being?

[shadowman]

human suffering is part of this biblical truth, so is humans being punished forever in hell.

who benefits from humans being punished forever.

do humans benefit from it?

does god?

[Tariki]

shadowman,

you are challenging some of the great Shakespearean monologues here (not!).............do you never tire of flaying certain expressions of the Christian Faith?

My own life - and faith - revolves around Amida...........Amida as the expression/personification of the Infinite Compassion of Reality-as-is, working (by "not-working") tirelessly for the enlightenment of all. Upaya - skilful means. Yet generally speaking Buddhism in any form lacks any explicit eschatalogical dimension such as we find in Christianity.

For me, in the Christian hope of Universal Reconciliation, the restoration of all things in Christ, we find an idea that has the potential to offer light to whatever darkness our hearts are capable of seeing, acknowledging, or experiencing. As explained and defended by those such as Thomas Talbott (see his book "The Inescapable Love of God") Universalism (of salvation) is deeply Biblical, if such is where you wish to search for "truth". Again, as explained by its defenders, it is not soft soap mush, but properly understood is a deep call to the depths of ourselves to search even now for reconciliation with all who we meet - to say "yes" where we can, to seek an ethics of empathy with those who do not share our own particular brand of belief. Taking such a call seriously is the polar opposite of "soft soap"!! It brings self-judgement and "soul" searching into our own lives on a daily basis.

In such a way, yes, "God" does give hope to humanity. If you wish to insist, as you apparently do, that the only authentic form of the Christianity Faith involves the double destiny format of "heaven" and "hell", then please continue your monologue................ For me, within the idea of a final reconciliation, I find a hope that supplements my own Buddhist leanings and practice. As Talbott says in the book I mentioned..........we should, I believe, interpret all of the biblical ideas associated with divine judgement as redemptive ideas.......

[shadowman]

if this is truly the case, I see absolutely no problem with christianity at all
.

but

you think god might fly down here and correct all the incorrect churches, wouldnt you.

or is he waiting to give us all a big pleasant suprize after death?

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by shadowman

you think god might fly down here and correct all the incorrect churches, wouldnt you.

or is he waiting to give us all a big pleasant suprize after death?

"god" as some sort of Batman superhero? well, that doesn't seem to be the way "he" works, though some might wish "he" did.......especially those who surmise that it will be anyone but themselves who feel the expression of "his" wrath or some sort of correction to their theology......

as far as surprises after death........I remember well a conversation between an ardent fundamentalist guy and his very sceptical friend. This sceptic said......Look here John, when you come marching into heaven to the tune of "When the Saints Come Marching In" your'll find me playing in the band! This guy John turned away with a deep look of profound sadness and said.......No Bill, I don't think so.....

well, who will be getting the surprise?



The words of the Christian mystic Julian of Norwich (who did speak at one point in her writings of some such "great surprise" that is now beyond our imagining).........

He is Risen! The worst conceivable thing has happened, and it has been mended...........so that the end of everything shall be well. I say again, all manner of things shall end well.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Tariki

I say again, all manner of things shall end well.

Yes.

[17th Angel]

jesus rocks your socks off.

[pattimax]

Go with Christ, brah.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Go with Christ, brah.

High five!

[shadowman]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Yes.

so god doesnt think everyone deserves hell?

[wil]

Originally Posted by shadowman

so god doesnt think everyone deserves hell?

'xactly the opposite I believe.

[ardenz]

hell is all in the mind......