Good Men Hate God

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I find that hard to believe

(I don't think the English understand it; I reckon half of it is made up on a whim by the umpire. A bit like the referee in rugby!)

Snoopy.

PS Sorry, off topic. As you were...

Well, the CG academy teaches us about such things. Even have teams to play the games. (never said we were good at them).

Can't "chip kick". might lose a goal to a fast flanker...

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Terrence

Hey bro, I just wanted to correct something. It surely was not the fear of God that converted me, but God's love. It blew me away because I saw how Holy God is and rather than dealing with me as He should, he showed grace. I was a tear filled convert and not a fear filled one. I assure you, fear would not have bought me to God, but agian, His grace did. All that said however, it was during my studying and maturing did I come to know more about God's character and I've learned that His wrath is as horrible as His love is awesome. The only 2 attributes profitable to God are Love and Wrath, Ive learned that. And, it is because of learning more about His holiness and wrath that I can understand and appriciate Grace, you know? I am convinced, until a man sees himself as God sees him apart from Christ, He cannot be saved.

In Jesus!

Interesting.

Here Terrence admits that it isn't the fear of God, but the love of God that has attracted him. Yet his entire discourse in the OP emphasizes God's wrath and judgement.

I think, Terrence, that you are being dishonest when you say that the fear of God didn't drive you to God, for you must have known from reading the Bible about the consequence and penalty of sin and the fact that one needs to recognize the need for salvation (presumably from Hell) as an essensial step in coming to Christ. Fear had to drive you toward that at least initially before you could grasp the love of God. Once you've understood that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the grave, and acknowledge this in your own life, that fear gave way to love. You can now appreciate the love of God in your life and live to obey Him in love.

I suppose fear of Hell has it's place, and so does the reward of Heaven. But I think Terrence's point is that you cannot separate heaven or hell from God. For one represents life with God and the other represents life without God.

When it is our time to stand before God our maker, one of two things will happen. Either we will experience the overwhelming Love of God and His forgiveness, mercy, and grace. Or we will experience the fear and wrath of God. The basis of which one we will face depends on our relationship to God. For the creative life of Man is dependance on the Sustaining Power of God, that Tree of Life that was kept from Adam and Eve, and all mankind, because of Sin. If Jesus split the veil and allowed us access once again to that Tree of Life, the Spirit of God will give us life eternal and sustain us for all eternity.

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." - John 17:3

Of course, we must make the choice to eat of that Tree of Life, for our God-given freewill, that same freewill that chosed the Forbidden Tree that brought death, demands that we are the master's of our destiny, the captain of our fate.

[Quahom1]

You know, all joking aside...

I know exactly who and what I am (and it humbles me).

But I also know my potential (and it inspires me)

I simply need a catalyst to help set things in motion...

That is Father God, I need inspiration (that is Jesus), and I need continuance in that support and inspiration (that is the Holy Spirit, here with us now).

It isn't Good men that hate God. It is Dead men that hate God...

That it the truth of things.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

...I have one Father and one Teacher.. Everyone else is clueless..

So we agree, that would be us learning from our elder brother and wayshower and both being one of the continually only begottens.

Since I can't translate Hebrew, don't intimately know the history and the derivations of all the words, I do believe that Jews that have been raised in the language and continue to study scriptures can sometimes assist me in regards to books that their people wrote.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

So we agree, that would be us learning from our elder brother and wayshower and both being one of the continually only begottens.

Since I can't translate Hebrew, don't intimately know the history and the derivations of all the words, I do believe that Jews that have been raised in the language and continue to study scriptures can sometimes assist me in regards to books that their people wrote.

Nope. That is not what she meant. Just ask her. There is no "agreement" (wish there was).

slick, Wil.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nope. That is not what she meant. Just ask her. There is no "agreement" (wish there was).

slick, Wil.

Someone besides me understodd that!

[wil]

Aw, I'm fully aware that you all feel I'm on the outside looking in...

And that you don't agree with me....despite the times I feel I agree with you.

I don't write your words, I just read them...albiet through rose colored glasses.

I do see a time for every season...and I see a purpose and a need for the fire and brimstone motivational speech...I just don't see it so applicable in this venue. One may consider me off the path, or on a different path. But I don't see myself as in the gutter, and I could be wrong, but that is where I see the value in the in your face, your gonna go to hell if you don't straighten up mentality.

[Terrence]

For: Dondi

Here Terrence admits that it isn't the fear of God, but the love of God that has attracted him. Yet his entire discourse in the OP emphasizes God's wrath and judgement.

It was not the fear of God that drove me to Christ but love. Now, here's the part I want you to get - the important part: When I saw how Holy God is (and I havent seen it fully, just a glimpse) and how His Holy nature required wrath to be expressed on any kind of imperfection and how that because He is Soverign and not having to answer to anyone, chose to crush His own beloved and infinitly perfect Son on my behalf, it changed me. I was humbled. I was in awe and saw love ( a love that I or no one deserved, expressed in unfathomable measures). So you see, without a correct understanding of God's nature, from Holiness to Justice and wrath, you can NEVER appriciate His love and mercy shown for in the cross of Christ.

I think, Terrence, that you are being dishonest when you say that the fear of God didn't drive you to God, for you must have known from reading the Bible about the consequence and penalty of sin and the fact that one needs to recognize the need for salvation (presumably from Hell) as an essensial step in coming to Christ. Fear had to drive you toward that at least initially before you could grasp the love of God. Once you've understood that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the grave, and acknowledge this in your own life, that fear gave way to love. You can now appreciate the love of God in your life and live to obey Him in love.

Uh uh. If I did fear God, that fear was put in me by Him (Eze. 36). But, that wasnt my reason for coming to Christ. Like most, before I was born again, my god was in idol and was too good to send anyone to hell. My god was not the God of the Bible, I had no reason to fear that god. As a matter of fact, I didnt do anything bad (in human eyes) to be worried anyone. Read my converstion story blog and you'll see that I am suprised that God saved a self righteous good peson like me.

I suppose fear of Hell has it's place, and so does the reward of Heaven. But I think Terrence's point is that you cannot separate heaven or hell from God. For one represents life with God and the other represents life without God.

If anyone comes to Jesus because they fear Hell, they will fall away and be revealed to never having being saved in the first place. They only had an emotionally strong situation where they thought something "spiritual" happened. There are ONLY 2 wings that will fly you to God: Repentance and Faith. Those are the Biblical mandates to a true converstion. Repent and Faith in Christ.

[Terrence]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It isn't Good men that hate God. It is Dead men that hate God...That it the truth of things.

Didnt you know Q, good men are dead man. Those who are made alive know that it is only by grace they are saved. They are some of the most vile and wicked men who have been changed to become like Christ. Good men do good deeds and die unforgiven, unregenrated law breakers and God haters. They trust in their own rightousness and go to hell. Good men teach bad men how to be good and die. Christ came to call dead men to life and give it more abundantly.

[moseslmpg]

Doesn't the Bible itself say God is love? How is worshipping that God idolatry then?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Aw, I'm fully aware that you all feel I'm on the outside looking in...

And that you don't agree with me....despite the times I feel I agree with you.

I don't write your words, I just read them...albiet through rose colored glasses.

I do see a time for every season...and I see a purpose and a need for the fire and brimstone motivational speech...I just don't see it so applicable in this venue. One may consider me off the path, or on a different path. But I don't see myself as in the gutter, and I could be wrong, but that is where I see the value in the in your face, your gonna go to hell if you don't straighten up mentality.

But see, you could be in the inside looking in...

I don't care for fire either (I fight it for a living). None the less it is fact. However not everyone is dancing around the fire pit either, so your point is equally valid.

But (there allways is a butt with a body), the fact that there is fire, doesn't mean everyone can preach about it. There are some who's voice is so ingratiating, that the blind will deliberately turn away from the sound (and could literally fall into the fire), instead of turning towards the sound (away from the fire).

Some folk just are not meant to be preachers. Others could be if they would take inventory of their own closet. And then there are those we can listen to all day long, and never grow tired of hearing them...

Others still are the listeners, and they hear the ring of truth or the deadened thud of false piety.

Does that make sense to you?

[Terrence]

For: Moses

Its only idolatry when the god you worship is not the God of the Bible. Yes, the God of the Bible is Love. Man, I cant express in words how great and awesome and amazing His love Really is. But, you will never understand His love apart from His Holiness and wrath. How could you really appriciate the gift of the Cure (Jesus) without understanding your sickness (sin)? You cant! Love God for who He reveals Himself to be in the Bible and you will do fine. Most people, however, cant and wont.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Doesn't the Bible itself say God is love? How is worshipping that God idolatry then?

Yes it does say that but it also says quite often that God is holy, righteous and gets angry. He does judge.

Look it is easy to see how much he loves us.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Well that is exactly what God did for us.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Does that make sense to you?

To be honest Q, I preferred the baseball stuff. Let me check this back with you: I'm a deaf man with a white stick, in a closet, on the edge of fire pit. Wil will probably make more of it I guess.

Snoop.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Terrence

Didnt you know Q, good men are dead man. Those who are made alive know that it is only by grace they are saved. They are some of the most vile and wicked men who have been changed to become like Christ. Good men do good deeds and die unforgiven, unregenrated law breakers and God haters. They trust in their own rightousness and go to hell. Good men teach bad men how to be good and die. Christ came to call dead men to life and give it more abundantly.

No Terrence. They are simply men, with godly potential. If they ignore God, then they are dead. But then, they wouldn't be "good men" either, come to think about it. And I do not choose to judge who is and who isn't dead.

Know why? I'm not God. (tried to be God once, but the responsibility was just too damn much for me to handle). And I don't think God needs our help in judging ourselves...He's a big boy and can do it all by Himself.

That leaves us with one objective. Show the living, how to LIVE, and let the dead bury their own.

Quite simple actually.

If we all are children of Noah (and I presume we are biblically speaking), then we all know the laws of God. We carry them within us. We also KNOW that the end of the road is death, one day. Therefore our "preaching" should be about the LIFE, we can have, after this death, if we only believe on Christ. In other words, the doomed need to hear about salvation, not expatriation.

Does that make sense?