Good Men Hate God - Page 6

juantoo3 · 10-19-2006, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

If anyone here can tell me honestly that they developed their theological ideas solely from reading the Bible, and without any commentary or outside input I'll publicly eat crow.

I have no desire to see you eat crow, and I think I see what you are getting at. I certainly cannot claim I had no formal indoctrination as a kid (which I am actually grateful for), yet what I can say is that when I came of age to pursue this on my own, I did it largely of my own volition. Even what "teachers" I have had, I have always found questions that they were uncomfortable with. In short, I follow no one completely, and base my understanding predominantly on my own personal studies, deliberately laying aside most formal traditions. In fairness, there is one scholar I have found that seems to have reached many of the same conclusions I did, who by virtue of formal study in linguistics (a pupil of Ginsberg, Mee), experience and time was able to delve even further than I had. His teaching has been a great benefit to me. Even so, there are a couple of things I don't quite see eye to eye about even with him. BTW, while this scholar is quite conservative, he is most likely considered non-mainstream. Fine by me, I'll take the book over convention any day...

Prober · 10-19-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

That's why most Christians don't read the Bible- especially the OT: It's so confusing because what it says isn't what it means, so it's better to have the preacher just tell you what it means.

Everyone is reliant on commentary. Everyone.

Chris

One can pray for guidance, then read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit provide the commentary.

lunamoth · 10-19-2006, 03:54 PM

I wonder though how many people would come up with the idea of the rapture and tribulation ala Hayes on their own if they were not previously introduced to that idea.

Oh, and just to even it out, how many would come up with the doctrine of the Trinity all on their own, just reading the Bible?

luna

wil · 10-19-2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

.. I have found that satan is pretty adept at taking the bible out of context... .. You wont take the time to learn Hebrew so you ask someone else for their translation/interpretation ...

ouch

It appears to me that all discussion is based largely on previous discussion, and sermons, and commentary...it all builds.

China has a point, but only to a point. First there existed the stories, the oral traditions explaining the unexplainable, eventually folks wrote it down. Some of the stories were combined (the elohists and yahwists) and rewritten (deuteronomists) and edited...and then a group got together and combined their favorite stories and poems and history into a book...and called it good.

Since then the commentaries and sermons started all utilizing the same book, until various interpretations and translations existed.

Yes some of us do learn Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic or Coptic or Sanskrit or... so we can delve deeper...but all of us have to rely on others for some interpretation and commentary as we cannot in one lifetime learn it all...or even think for certain that the hebrew words today mean the same as they did three or four thousand years ago...

~screwtape

lunamoth · 10-19-2006, 04:18 PM

Yes wil, I agree. I comes down to a matter of who do you trust.

luna

Dor · 10-19-2006, 05:56 PM

It comes down to who you trust and what you believe.

I believe that God can lead man to do things. Some men allow God to use them.
So God had a direct hand in what books and stories were included in his big book.
I refuse to limit God if he wanted the Gospel of Thomas(just an example) in the Bible he dang sure would have made sure it happened.

I also listen to the Spirit if I read a commentary or article I listen to what the Spirit says about it. I get much better reaction(not always exactly favorable from Barnes, Gill, Henry, Clark then I do from L.R. Smith, Russel, J. Smith).

So it all comes down to what you believe and trust in.
I personally believe God can make dang sure if he wants something in his book it will be there. And I trust that if he did not make sure it did then I can make it to him without it.

And above all I trust the Spirit to guide me in my study before any man. I also trust the Spirit to guide me to men that let the Spirit guide them like my awesome pastor.

Dondi · 10-19-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

It comes down to who you trust and what you believe.

And above all I trust the Spirit to guide me in my study before any man. I also trust the Spirit to guide me to men that let the Spirit guide them like my awesome pastor.

Isn't that what the LDS church believe about the Book of Mormon, that the Spirit will give witness of it's truth?

Dor · 10-19-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Isn't that what the LDS church believe about the Book of Mormon, that the Spirit will give witness of it's truth?

I am forbiden by Q to express my thoughts about the LDS....so I will try to answer this short and tactfully. LDS church is a non christian orginization(trying here Q) so I can not answer for what Spirit leads them.

I was talking about the Holy Spirit that is from the Bible.

moseslmpg · 10-19-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

It comes down to who you trust and what you believe.

I believe that God can lead man to do things. Some men allow God to use them.
So God had a direct hand in what books and stories were included in his big book.
I refuse to limit God if he wanted the Gospel of Thomas(just an example) in the Bible he dang sure would have made sure it happened.

I also listen to the Spirit if I read a commentary or article I listen to what the Spirit says about it. I get much better reaction(not always exactly favorable from Barnes, Gill, Henry, Clark then I do from L.R. Smith, Russel, J. Smith).

So it all comes down to what you believe and trust in.
I personally believe God can make dang sure if he wants something in his book it will be there. And I trust that if he did not make sure it did then I can make it to him without it.

And above all I trust the Spirit to guide me in my study before any man. I also trust the Spirit to guide me to men that let the Spirit guide them like my awesome pastor.

What say you about the extra books in the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible? Maybe we're the ones that got the abridged version and they got the full one.

That said, do you believe God directly meddles in human affairs? I can understand if he inspired the Bible, but not that he oversaw its compilation and made sure certain things happened. Where's the free will?

Dor · 10-19-2006, 06:34 PM

There is free will. You have the free will to worship cows, satan, money, the world, some false god you made up etc. I used my free will to give my life to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his Son Jesus Christ. So if he used me to influence something that is not a lose of free will that is him doing what I asked him to do.

So of course I believe some of the people deciding on the Canon had probably given their life to Christ and allowed him to lead them when they put the book together.

Like I said I believe if it was needed for salvation it got included.

moseslmpg · 10-19-2006, 06:46 PM

Ok, it makes sense now. That is an interesting belief, though I suppose this isn't the place to discuss it.

BlaznFattyz · 10-19-2006, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

What say you about the extra books in the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible? Maybe we're the ones that got the abridged version and they got the full one.

the book of enoch was included in some bibles, and not in others, because of not being certain who wrote the discovered scrolls and because it speaks of angels taking on human form and having offspring with women that produced giants. of course some will see demons take on human form in the future as the false prophet and antichrist. many are certain that what enoch speaks of are the angels who did meddle with humans are bound in the abyss, and the offspring were killed and roam the earth as demon spirits, which later comes into play when jesus confronts legion and the whole pig incident, and later in revelations. personally i read the book of enoch as it prophecies about jesus christ and things to come and most of it is paralleled, even directly quoted in the bible we read. personally i think the book of enoch has been passed down and kept intact and is inspired and valid.

moseslmpg · 10-19-2006, 07:48 PM

Likewise, I believe it is valid. I think it would have been nice to have it in our Bible. There are also some apocryphal books that are referenced in the Bible that should have been included, if only to prevent confusion.

Faithfulservant · 10-20-2006, 12:13 AM

Who provided commentary to the prophets of the bible?.. Moses..Daniel..Ezekiel...Jeremiah..Soloman..David. ..I dont agree with the idea that you need anything from man..I dont agree that God needs anyone to make Himself heard and understood.

China Cat Sunflower · 10-20-2006, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I wonder though how many people would come up with the idea of the rapture and tribulation ala Hayes on their own if they were not previously introduced to that idea.

Oh, and just to even it out, how many would come up with the doctrine of the Trinity all on their own, just reading the Bible?

luna

That's an excellent point!

Imagine, hypothetically of course, a person with absolutely no preconceptions about the Bible. They're completely isolated, on a desert island or something, and this Bible drops out of the sky. What do you think they would conclude from studying it? Would it look anything like mainstream Christian theology? I wonder...

Chris