Hagar, Ishmael

wil · 05-24-2006, 12:46 PM

Now I am a neophyte in this area...

But it was proposed to me yesterday that the rift between Muslims and Jews stems from Abram's treatment of Hagar and his son Ishmael.

Due to the fact that Mohamed pbuh was a descendent of Ishmael.

This is just beyond my current level of understanding, can anyone expound on this.

thipps · 05-24-2006, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

But it was proposed to me yesterday that the rift between Muslims and Jews stems from Abram's treatment of Hagar and his son Ishmael.

Due to the fact that Mohamed pbuh was a descendent of Ishmael.

h| wil,
no, this is completely false. Not only that, its completely illogical. The Prophet Abraham was the father of both Ishmael and Isaac (peace be upon them all). He wasnt a Jew. The Qur'aan specifically addresses this issue as well. A quote is given below:
O People of the Scripture, why do you argue about Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until after him? Then will you not reason? [Qur'aan, 3:65]
and in 3:67, the Qur'aan even specifically says the Abraham (pbuh) was neither a Jew nor a Christian.
out of curiosity, exactly what kind of treatment are you referring to in your post? I ask cause the Bible differs from Islamic sources on this issue more or less depending on exactly which part of the story you are referring to.
regards,
thipps.

wil · 05-24-2006, 01:26 PM

Namaste thipps I apreciate your response. To clarify, are you saying in your circles this is not a point of contention in any way? This is the passage, can you post your version of the same passage?

Genesis 16

1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her."
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, "You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me." 6 "Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

Light · 05-26-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Namaste thipps I apreciate your response. To clarify, are you saying in your circles this is not a point of contention in any way? This is the passage, can you post your version of the same passage?

Hi wil...

Just to chip in... So far as I have been a Muslims (since birth) we have never been told that the result of the rift is due to how prophet Ibrahim alaihi salam treat Hagar and Ismail alaihi salam. We revered all prophet with due respect and that includes the prophets from line of Yacob alaihi salam (Jacob - Jews) including Isa alaihi salam (Jesus). We are even told to address all Jews and Christian with a very noble title - People of the Book.

Similarly should we also proposed that if there is a rift between Christianity and Judaism, it is because of how Jews mistreated Isa alaihi salam and his mother Mariam (pbuh) who has to go into isolation to give birth under the tree alone without human assistance.

There is no relations to the story of prophet Ibrahim alaihi salam that causes a rift between Jews and Islam today. The things that happens today is purely due to capitalism in the name of religion.

I have not searched the Quran or Hadith about a similar verse as in the Bible that you have produce. But I am sure thipp or our other Muslim brethen will give the answer.

The reasons that was proposed was incorrect and baseless.

I, Brian · 05-26-2006, 02:10 PM

It's an interesting question to raise - I'm sure I remember reading a while back that there was a key issue over the lineage - in that Isaac was chosen initially as the "chosen" line to receive revelation from god, while Ishmael was effectively shunned from the process.

I don't think such a discussion is essentially looking to critical of Islam, as much as explore the relationship between Islam and Judaism, especially via the lineage from Abraham.

2c.

mansio · 05-26-2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

I'm sure I remember reading a while back that there was a key issue over the lineage - in that Isaac was chosen initially as the "chosen" line to receive revelation from god, while Ishmael was effectively shunned from the process.

That is what I always heard too.

peace4all · 05-26-2006, 03:41 PM

I think it is common knowledge to both religions that Sarah was jealous of Hajar.

If you've read the book Sarah by Orson Scott Card, which is based on the Old Testament, Hajar and Ismael are portrayed in a negative light, and that Ismael supposedly commited some kind of theft which was why they were banished. This does not jive with the Quranic story, which describes Hajar being stranded in the desert while still suckling Ismael.

I also remember reading in the Hadith, that certain Jewish rabis who converted to Islam during the time of prophet Muhammad admitted that the text in the Torah regarding Ismael was altered due to the Jewish disdain of Arabs.

The Torah says that it was Isaac that Ibrahim was to sacrifice, while the muslim standpoint is that it was Ismael.

So I think it is safe to say that the rift between Arabs and Jews stems from the jealousy between Sarah and Hajar. And by "rift" I don't mean that they were killing each other, but that they were no longer one people. And also from that point, the Jews refused to accept Ismael or his line as prophets.

peace4all · 05-26-2006, 03:44 PM

Also the muslim standpoint is that both Isaac and Ismael were "chosen" as prophets of God.

thipps · 05-26-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It's an interesting question to raise - I'm sure I remember reading a while back that there was a key issue over the lineage - in that Isaac was chosen initially as the "chosen" line to receive revelation from god, while Ishmael was effectively shunned from the process.

That wud be a biblical rendering of the issue. As far as we are concerned, both were chosen. So, it doesnt enter into discussion with us.
Again, the biblical rendering of the whole situation is that Isaac was sacrificed but our sources say that it was Ishmael. Im sure it has been discussed/debated multiple times on CR. And this is not the place for another one of those.
But as i said in my original reply, we are clear on the issue... Abraham(pbuh) was neither a Jew nor a christian. So, even if the mistreatment had occured [im not saying it did and im not saying it didnt...i havent checked it up cause there was no need to], it wud have nothing to do with the Jews. The simple fact is that the two issues are not related, so there is no need for comparisons.
Just to throw some more light on the situation, I know that Abraham(pbuh) had problems with Sarah due to her jealousy of Hajar (Ishmael's mother). Then Abraham(pbuh) brought both of them to Makkah (She didnt come to Makkah with Ishmael (pbuh) on her own). Then Abraham(pbuh) left both of them on orders from God. All this is mentioned in hadith. anyway, after this, he went a bit away and when they could not see him, he raised his hands and prayed. The prayer itself is mentioned in the Quran (See 14:37).
Actually, it just occured to me that once someone had asked us about the origin of the actions of Hajj. And, it would be appropriate to point out that what happened after this is the source of one of them i.e. the running between the mountains of Safa and Marwa. Hajar (May Allaah be pleased with her) had a water-skin with her and when that ran out, she started to run between these moutains in search of water. Then she heard the voice of someone and it turned out to be Gabriel (peace be upon him) who hit his heel on the ground from which the well-known Zam Zam well gushed forth. It is from the water of this well that people now drink during the Hajj and at any time that they are in Makkah.

Quote:

I don't think such a discussion is essentially looking to critical of Islam, as much as explore the relationship between Islam and Judaism, especially via the lineage from Abraham.

2c.

agreed.

I, Brian · 05-26-2006, 03:59 PM

Thanks for the reply thipps - I never actually realised that it was Ishmael offered for sacrifice in the Islamic tradition - I guess that means I've been reading too much from the Christianised sources.

thipps · 05-26-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peace4all

So I think it is safe to say that the rift between Arabs and Jews stems from the jealousy between Sarah and Hajar. And by "rift" I don't mean that they were killing each other, but that they were no longer one people. And also from that point, the Jews refused to accept Ismael or his line as prophets.

You're just confusing the issue. What was between Sarah and Hajar has nothing to do with what is between the Jews and the Muslims. when you write that the Jews refused to accept Ishmael or his line of Prophets, you have to remember here that the Jews refused cause of thier arrogance and pride in believing themselves to be the chosen people and not accepting that Prophets could come from outside the jewish circle. It had nothing to do with Sarah's jealousy of Hajar.

peace4all · 05-26-2006, 04:12 PM

My point was that if it were not for the jealousy between Sarah and Hajar, God would not have instructed Ibrahim to leave Hajar in the desert. And because of the jealousy, Ismael was no longer "in the jewish circle".

farhan · 05-27-2006, 09:39 PM

see these links for Islamic point of view of the "sacrifice" matter.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...sacrifice.html
http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch.../sacrifice.htm

Islam/Quran doesnt make any difference among both of them. Whatever Abraham did with Hagar & Ishmael , according to Islam it was all a test for him from God , & not out of jelousy . God tested him with his prisest possession , his only son that he got after 86 years . In reward , he is the only one ( according to my knowledge ) whom God salutes (37:109) . He made him an honoured person , more than half of the world honour him & consider him their spiritual father .

The difference mainly comes from the Bible. Ishmael was not considered "in jewish circle" bc the word & concept jew starts from judah s/o jacob s/o Issac(Israel) . At that time , jew was more of a race than a religion . There was no point of Ishmael being a part of a race that started centuries after him . So for jews , he was always an uncle , not a father . An uncle without convent , without a lineage of prophets . The world was soon divided into Jew & Gentile . Ishmaelities were among the gentiles , second grade humans .

The rift mainly comes from the fact that jews were waiting for Messiah , he came to them in the form of Jesus , the last promised prophet for israelites. Some people obeyed him , others didnt . People who followed him were called Christians , their theology evolved , & later on Jesus became the son of God .
Jews didnt accept Muhammad b/c they thought that the last prophet/messiah had to come from jewish lineage ( b/c of the convent ) . Christians didnt accept him becaause Islam criticised the concept of "only begotten son" . This is the main rift. To muslims & christians , the messaih is Jesus , who came , & will come back again . To jews , he is still an unknown person .

flowperson · 05-27-2006, 11:12 PM

IMO, these are mythical tales from the two basic branches of the semitic peoples, repeated and written in ways such that they were "meant" to be open to interpretation and misunderstanding over the millenia. This was done purposefully so that the origins of the first peoples of the one G-d could have a common thread of understanding through which to mutually discover their common origins.

Remember that G-d/Allah is the sole author of history, and that history is best unraveled and understood through stories which are open to interpretation. Humans, being what they are, will always use these interpretations to manipulate societal change to effect the advantage of the rulers over the ruled.

flow....

thipps · 05-28-2006, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peace4all

My point was that if it were not for the jealousy between Sarah and Hajar, God would not have instructed Ibrahim to leave Hajar in the desert.

God ordered Abraham(pbuh) to leave Hajar in the desert along with Ismaeel (pbuh).. agreed but where did you get this information about the reason? Do you have any textual proof for this? Im not saying it isnt the case, im just asking for proof... I'd appreciate it.

Quote:

And because of the jealousy, Ismael was no longer "in the jewish circle".

He was never in the jewish circle to begin with and neither was anyone else at that time. As i said, the Quraan is clear on the issue that Abraham(pbuh) was neither Jew nor christian. When i used that phrase, i was speaking from the context of the Jews. One thing that should also be kept in mind from our perspective is that those who followed the prophet of thier time were muslims (by definition).