Hardline takeover of mosques?

[bananabrain]

i know what you're saying, wil, but the fact that it's not 100% "their fault" doesn't exonerate them 100% from taking responsibility. this is what i say to muslims - if you don't like the way islam is going, TAKE IT BACK. islam should not be bought and sold by the wahhabis, propagated by the deobandis and then every muslim in the world has to deal with the consequences. similarly,
the supply chain of christianity shouldn't be controlled by US evangelists and judaism shouldn't be bought and sold by armchair right-wingers in the states, represented by loony, moshiach-drunk west bank settlers and then every jew in the world gets called a racist imperialist apartheid-monger. if you don't like what's going on, GET OUT THERE AND START YELLING.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by earl

I don't confuse the few with the many. But it seems that some folk who take your perspective (I won't lump you in with the many of them necessarily) are saying if we only preach love and tolerance and eliminate any racism we seem to be evidencing among non-Muslim folk toward Muslims-of which I have none by the way- these rabid, irrational, zealous radicals will allow us to live in peace. Afraid it's not that simple unfortunately. earl

I agree with you earl, this is not something that can be solved from outside Islam and there is no simple solution. If you simply lock the radicals up you give others an excuse to claim persecution by the west and convert more minds to the radical approach.

So I have a question for everybody. Many people, myself included, say that it is up to peaceful Muslims to speak out against the radicals, to discourage our young from going to these mosques and teaching our young the right and peaceful path of Islam.

The question is HOW? If your faith or group had a radical extremist minority, hell bent on causing murder and mayhem in the world, what do you actually feel you could do about it?

Okay so I can post on the internet, I can speak to the young men I encounter and I can try to persuade people not to attend these mosques, however I never meet truly radical people and have no way of re-educating them even if I did. Yes, perhaps I can persuade my husband and some close friends that violence is not the answer - that is until the next bomb drops on a Muslim village somewhere in the Middle East!

Who do you feel needs to take responsibility for dealing with this radical wing and how can they achieve the re-education of these people?

Wil, thank you so much for your analysis of the part the west plays in this radical behaviour. I have said before and shall say again, I saw at first hand the effect that western policy has on young Muslim minds during the recent Israel/Lebanon conflict. I believe there is right and wrong on both sides of that particular fence but the reaction to Mr Bush restating his absolute support for the Israeli government, while thousands of women and children were being killed really worried me. People with no radical views at all began to speak in terms of the western desire to crush the Muslim people and a need for Muslim countries to fight back. We all know Bush and his allies will go after Iran next and I dread to think what this will add to the cocktail of fear, violence and hatred.

Add to these problems the poverty found in some Muslim countries. Since I came home to the UK the price of bread has increased 50% in Egypt. For you or I that may be a small matter but for my husbands family it is a matter of further struggle, anger and feeling persecuted. The young men will now watch their families struggle even more and then some self important supposed scholar will say 'fight for Islam against the western persecutors, you will become a martyr and Allah will bless your family'. Shall we guess what happens next?!

Sorry if I sound a bit lost in all this but quite frankly I am, change within Islam needs to happen but I cannot see where this will come from. We are seeing an increasing number of Islamic scholars in the west preaching tolerence and peace but they are dismissed by the radicals as western puppets. There simply is no simple solution imo.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

If your faith or group had a radical extremist minority, hell bent on causing murder and mayhem in the world, what do you actually feel you could do about it?

As one individual? I think I would have to examine my faith, specifically with regard to the parts being "quoted" by the "extremists" and confirm if the parts were genuine to the faith that I felt to be a part of, in which case I would have to reject such a faith. Alternatively, if I decided that it was the individuals who had a "deluded" or faulty understanding of the faith I would, I hope, stand by what I felt was right. I can understand what a difficult position one must feel in.

s.

[Dondi]

If your faith or group had a radical extremist minority, hell bent on causing murder and mayhem in the world, what do you actually feel you could do about it?

We have our share:

Westboro Baptist Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

As one individual? I think I would have to examine my faith, specifically with regard to the parts being "quoted" by the "extremists" and confirm if the parts were genuine to the faith that I felt to be a part of, in which case I would have to reject such a faith. Alternatively, if I decided that it was the individuals who had a "deluded" or faulty understanding of the faith I would, I hope, stand by what I felt was right. I can understand what a difficult position one must feel in.

s.

Thanks Snoop, this is exactly what I have done and found their thinking to be faulty. That just leaves me as an individual with little other than an ability to type on forums.

I just hear myself and others keep repeating that we, the moderates must do something but what? I have no idea how to stop this, my magic wand is broken and if I could stop it today, of course I would.

[Snoopy]

OK, I'm in the cheap seats here i.e. not read the Qu'oran. I have read quite a bit that is essentially of the "kill the unbelievers" type stuff though. I know this is not unique to the Qu'oran (e.g. the Bible) but what would you say to someone in the cheap seats about this, because aren't these the parts that those who want to, can latch on to, to provide "justification" for their violent intentions?

s.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

OK, I'm in the cheap seats here i.e. not read the Qu'oran. I have read quite a bit that is essentially of the "kill the unbelievers" type stuff though. I know this is not unique to the Qu'oran (e.g. the Bible) but what would you say to someone in the cheap seats about this, because aren't these the parts that those who want to, can latch on to, to provide "justification" for their violent intentions?

s.

Only if they take the verses out of context, which is of course what they do. Most of the verses that they use either ignore the fact that the chapter is dscussing a certain battle at the time or ignores the verses before and after that puts it into context.

My Mum had the same problem, she looked up all these anti Islamic sites that quote these verses but when I put them into context for her she could see how they had been used out of context.

I shall spend this evening doing a post showing the verses used to support violence and putting them into context, maybe this will help the people in the cheap seats understand the difficulties.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I shall spend this evening doing a post showing the verses used to support violence and putting them into context, maybe this will help the people in the cheap seats understand the difficulties.

Whilst I also am in the cheap seats...I see a few empties down front...and now that I know the games afoot, I'm moving!!

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I shall spend this evening doing a post showing the verses used to support violence and putting them into context, maybe this will help the people in the cheap seats understand the difficulties.

OK ta.

My seat's so cheap I think I need to go take a bath.

s.

[flowperson]

OK Snoopy, but be careful of what you do in the tub.

All of this reminds me of what happened years ago when Salman Rushdie wrote and published The Satanic Verses. Almost immediately a global "fatwa" was issued condemning him to death for his audacity as a writer to attempt to educate people THROUGH A FICTIONAL STORY about how sacred things automatically turn into profane things in the real world. G-d bless the UK for protecting him in his years of need.

It's just the way the real world operates, and ALL RELIGIONS have corrupted themselves throughout the centuries of their existence, and especially the Abrahamic Religions. If anyone wants to know more about the process of just how sacred moments are turned into profane remembrances, you should obtain a book by Mircea Eliade appropriately titled, The Sacred and the Profane.

Remember what Genesis taught us all. The sons of G-d descended to Earth and saw the daughters of men and found them to be desireable. They took them for their wives and some of their offspring were violent people. Look around you and see what is happening floks.

flow....

[Muslimwoman]

I am happy to have this discussion and I trust my regular friends here not to make it confrontational but I shall ignore any posts that become confrontational. I am not a radical extremist and I cannot answer for them, I don't understand how their minds work or why they believe the things they do. All I can do is offer the verses they use and try to put them into their correct context.

However, I do feel it will be a useful disussion, if it remains a discussion and does not become a personal attack.

Will log out and do something in word and post it tonight or tomorrow. This will take some thinking about and study.

Salaam

[Leafblade]

I'm surprised that I haven't heard of Iraq being an example of extemeist using terrorism on their own people as well as the west. I do hope that the moderates step up and come up with some way to show that these extreme views are killing not only us, but their own people. However praying for some way to deal with this form of extremism is about all I can do for now. Perhaps if there is a way to actually sit down and have a constructive chat with them we could get somewhere. We could discourage extreme action of this kind, and actually find a way to help those muslims that have been affected by our actions. However I may be wishing for much. I mean look at how our own govenment handle the disaster of Katrina.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Leafblade

I'm surprised that I haven't heard of Iraq being an example of extemeist using terrorism on their own people as well as the west. I do hope that the moderates step up and come up with some way to show that these extreme views are killing not only us, but their own people. However praying for some way to deal with this form of extremism is about all I can do for now. Perhaps if there is a way to actually sit down and have a constructive chat with them we could get somewhere. We could discourage extreme action of this kind, and actually find a way to help those muslims that have been affected by our actions. However I may be wishing for much. I mean look at how our own govenment handle the disaster of Katrina.

It appears that the citizens of Iraq are beginning to tire of the insurgents and their indiscriminate killing. Sources say they are no longer harboring as a rule and are assisting Iraqi army, Iraqi police and US special forces on locations of caches and insurgents.

[Muslimwoman]

Obviously I am not a scholar and have not studied in any great university. I am just offering you my take and understanding of certain verses of the Quran. Read carefully there will be a test at the end

First can we agree that the early Muslims (during the life of the Prophet) did not run around handing out flowers and hugging people but also did not run around slaughtering everyone not in their gang. At the time Muslims were very much in the minority, tribal wars were the norm and most of the wars fought at the time by the Muslims were defensive. The conquering entire civilisations bit came after the death of the Prophet (hands up whose gang isn't guilty of that at some time in history - if your hand is up then you need to start reading about history or you are a Buddhist monk).

All we are dealing with here is during the life of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), which is the time of revelation of the Quran. A time when Muslims were being tortured and killed, fled to Medina, began to build in strength and defend themselves. Many of the battles were in and around Medina, logic would then suggest that someone had brought an army to attack Medina (you tend not to turn up at town gates with an army unless you are the aggressors).

So let us start with a real shocker, the so called 'sword verse':

Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. (9:5)

Bet you have heard that one so many times. Wow I am going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to explain that one away - or maybe not.

It is one of the main verses used to 'turn' young Muslims into extremists and by the other side to say that Islam teaches violence. They are told that this small part of a verse abrogates all other war verses - WHAT? There is nothing to support that view, it is just an appropriate fabrication and I can find no sane scholar that agree's with that view. Remember that many Muslims, particularly younger ones with less education, believe that it is wrong to question, if your imam or father or uncle, etc says this is a call to war then you simply accept what he says without question (coz he knows better than you). They say, it is an order from Allah, it is the word of G-d ....... it is also very selective cutting and pasting imo.

How come they always quote that one and not this one?:

But if the enemy inclines towards peace, you (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah(9:61)

I digress, here is the full verse:

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (9:5)

See how it starts to change when you don't cut part of the verse out?!

Who is the verse talking about? This is answered in previous verses:

A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances (9:1)

How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty. (9:7)

So it is not talking about the Pagans with whom the Muslims had a peace treaty, which had not been broken. Next:

And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (9:3)

But the treaties are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. (9:4)

So it is talking about Pagans that either do not have a treaty with the Muslims or have broken their treaty. The Muslims were not told just kill everyone we don't have an abiding treaty with, they were given notice:

Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). (9:2)

This is the notice (sacred months) referred to in the 'sword verse' 9:5. It gives 4 months notice, to come to terms with the Muslims or suffer the consequences.

So what had these Pagans done to deserve such harsh punishment? This is answered further in the chapter:

How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers. (9:8)

They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do. (9:9)

And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors. (9:10)

They had broken their pacts, they are the ones that were torturing and murdering Muslims. They are the ones that kept trying to assassinate the Prophet and wipe out the Muslims in Medina. Look at 9:8, 'They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse' - these are the ones that would claim to follow Islam in order to get into the ranks of the Muslims and betray them. So here I make no apology for the 'sword verse', it was in protection of the Muslims that the verse was revealed. As you can see it was not revealed for all time in all places, but for that specific time and place, allowing Muslims to defend themselves against those that broke treaties and attacked them.

Okay so verse 9:5 can be read to mean if they become Muslim leave their way free but if they don't convert kill them, which goes against the Muslim claim that there is no compulsion in religion. BUT read on to the very next verse:

And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. (9:6)

Hmm, so lay in wait, ambush them, slay them with no mercy but if they seek thy protection convey him to a place of safety. It doesn't say they must convert, it says they are a folk who know not and should be protected so they can hear the word of Allah.

So that is the first and most famous verse used by both extreme sides to explain the violence. Interestingly referred to as the 'sword' verse, as the word sword is not contained in the Quran. Hey ho. So if I, as a convert, can work this out why can't the others? Because they don't want to, is the simple answer. They are not looking for the teaching in the Quran, they are looking for things to back up their hatred and desire for violence. I could pick up virtually any book and do the same, all I would need is the desire for power and the hatred in my heart, which in some places is taught from a terribly early age.

Oh and if you think I simply have rose coloured glasses you can check this out (I could give loads more links, to similar opinions, if you want):

War and Peace in the Quran


It is very sad how the hatred builds up on both sides of the fence, I had to giggle when I came across this in my searches tonight:

WHERE THERE'S SMOKE...
THERE'S MUSLIMS!

You would have to say it in a really deep voice to get the full effect. Do you think they are talking about my Marlboro Lights? No, I didn't think so either!!

OVER THE LAST FIFTY YEARS...
The world population of Christians increased by 47%
The world population of Buddhists increased by 63%
The world population of Muslims increased by 235%
Intermarriage, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazi Holocaust, pogroms
and over 100 years of unrelenting Arab/Islamic terrorism have taken its toll.

Erm, when were the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Holocaust????? And what on earth has the increase in Buddhism got to do with religious fighting? These hate mongers will use anything to make their case.


Tomorrow we shall look at the next verse:

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (2:191)

Oh that is a good one, lots of killing defensless people, rivers of blood, slaughter of innocents ....... or maybe not, we shall see.

Salaam and thank you for your patience.

[Muslimwoman]

I decided to do the next installment tonight as it is so simple and not as long winded as the last (plus I am on my soap box ).

We were going to look at 2:191

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

You have to try to imagine being in a crowd of people listening to a Quran thumping scholar yelling at the top of his voice. It would be quite effective don't you think? Although it would lose an awful lot of it's head of steam if the verses above and below were also recited:

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (2:190)

OOPS, that is the verse directly before the blood and gore. Then come the 3 verses after:

But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (2:192)

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. (9:193)

The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil). (9:194)

Gosh so that would all be about defence then!

The extremists use a rather bizarre form of logic here. Their argument is that the Muslim people have been attacked so they are simply defending the Muslim people. They choose to ignore all the verses about not killing innocent people but only those that attack you and say those verses were abrogated (as discussed in the previous post). There is nothing but wishful thinking to support their claim but as they say sex sells and so it seems does wanton murder (if that is how you get your kicks).

One of the things they tend to ignore is that there is no Muslim state, so how can it have been attacked? Seriously, look up states that are said to be Islamic and look up the criteria for an Islamic State, nowhere meets the full criteria (not even Saudi - it has a king). Now look up how many rallies there are calling for the creation of an Islamic State. So how do you attack something that doesn't exist? Hell Muslims can't even decide what an Islamic State should be.

On the other side of the fence (there is always a but isn't there). An attack on one Muslim is an attack on all. That is not to say that if you get into a fight with a Muslim over a personal matter that it is a fight with the whole of Islam. However, if you choose to oppress or attack that Muslim, purely because he/she is Muslim then that is an attack on the whole of Islam and all Muslims are required to defend that person. Same goes for governments, if they go to war with a Muslim country over oil or borders, etc that is not an attack on Islam. If they decide however to attack a country to eradicate or oppress Muslims, purely based on their religion, then that is an attack against Islam and all Muslim nations are required to act in their defence.

There has been much debate about the Iraq war. The Muslim nations did not get involved because the original war was about oil (Saddam wanted more and US didn't want him to have it, coz they wanted it). Iraq threatened Saudi, a no no for Muslims (we are not allowed to fight each other). So that was political not religious. However, since the fall of Saddam and statements like Bush's "the axis of evil is Iraq, Iran and N Korea", Muslims have pricked up their ears. Bush has made many statements regarding Islam and it is now starting to look to Muslims like the war is no longer about oil or terror but about Islam. My prediction for the week is that US & allies go to war with Iran next (which I feel sure they are heading toward) and this view of an attack on Islam will be solidified. Then who knows what will happen? But I doubt it will be pretty.

None of the above is to say that, even with an attack on Islam, we are allowed to blow up cafe's, buses or fly planes into buildings. That is simply unIslamic and not allowed. Attacks on legitimate military targets are allowed though, if it is in defence of the Muslim people, who have been attacked or oppressed purely based on religion.

So then you get Osama and his buddies shouting about Muslim women being raped in Iraq, mosques being bombed (although he omits that it is largely other Muslim sects that are blowing up the mosques) and hey presto he has a rally call to defend the poor oppressed Muslim people. Please note, when thousands upon thousands of Muslims were being murdered in Bosnia, purely for their religion, Osama was nowhere to be seen or heard (of course there is no oil there - sorry am I getting cynical now). So it seems that politics and greed win out every time and these verses only apply (in the misinterpreted version) if you can get something out of it.

Also noteworthy is that there are 1.4 billion Muslims, that is quite a large army by anyones standards, so if Islam is a religion of violence and we are all obliged to run off and slay the infidels wherever we can find them - where are we all? Sorry Osama can't make the Jihad today I have to wash my hair, the cat is sick, the balaclava brings me out in a rash??? A miniscule minority are off killing innocent people, in the rather strange belief that they will die and get 72 virgins for a huge personal orgy in heaven - I have a strange feeling they are going to be rather diappointed. A minority are sitting in cafe's and posting on websites about how they are packed and ready to go, as soon as the cat is no longer sick or their mum gives them permission. And the overwhelming majority are shaking their heads and getting on with their lives, absolutely disgusted that the message of Allah is being used in such a manner.

Woops I said this wan't going to be along one sorry.

If anyone has any verses they want to discuss I would be happy to climb on my soap box and dig out the context for them.

Salaam