Hardline takeover of mosques?

[Snoopy]

First of all, thank you Sal for taking all the time and effort on this.


These are the main points that occur to me from your posts:

-The Quran is a very old book, written at a time of tribal wars.
-It is (often? always? is?) considered to be the unquestionable word of Allah.
-Parts of it can be taken out of context and seen to promote violence, but when placed in context are at least justifiably explained.


At least, this is the upshot to me.


And these are the thoughts that occur to me…


The Quran appears to be a mixture of religion (Allah) and politics (tribal survival, treaties etc). Any one book that is a mixture of these two and may also be considered to be unquestionable, although also open to “interpretation” by authority figures and selective quoting (as any book) is going to be a potentially dangerous recipe. I make this comment regarding any such book, not just the Quran. Historically of course, other books have been used as the “justification” for violence (e.g. the Bible, Mao’s Little Red Book). Humans can twist anything with enough effort; the Buddhist monks would be putting up their hands Sal, for the behaviour of Japanese monks in the Second World War. The great majority of Muslims are not slaying infidels, but neither are the great majority of Christians using the Bible to do likewise (at present). The “book” plays the part of the justifier, other factors need to be in place…


Economics and politics have of course always been causes of physical conflict, within and between countries; involving people who are both theist and atheist (e.g. Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler). If there was no oil in the Middle East then would the US still find reasons to get involved? I’m sure they would maintain their arms trade and oil supply by being involved wherever else in the world oil is to be found, sorry, democracy needs to be delivered. Similarly, the issues of poverty and education. I’m sure these too have a part to play, but then there are people in the world who are poor and uneducated that don’t want to become terrorists, and there are also people in the world who are wealthy and educated but who are terrorists (or at least provide the backing for others). But to return to the main thrust of this thread…


As long as there are texts “in use” which are considered to be holy and which contain material (even out of context, or selectively quoted) that can be used to justify or exhort violence towards non-believers then the conflicts will continue. The only solution I see (to the present “problem”), is the revision of such texts. Failing that, such texts need to be put on the bookshelf next to other books of the past that once held great sway over people’s minds. I realise neither of these things is about to happen any time soon, so I don’t see an end to this conflict any time soon. The Quran was written a long time ago, dealing with issues of a “specific time and place” of swords, but its faulty usage is persisting in the present time, one of WMD and other horrors.


Ultimately however, I believe that violence comes from the mind; words on a page are simply thoughts made explicit. Until the causes of violence in people’s minds are addressed, we can put any number of books on the bookshelf of history, but others will be written to replace them.

I apoligise for any offences caused, I am simply being honest. What I have said may well be seen as disrespectful, but that is not my intention.

s.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

OVER THE LAST FIFTY YEARS...
The world population of Christians increased by 47%
The world population of Buddhists increased by 63%
The world population of Muslims increased by 235%
Intermarriage, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazi Holocaust, pogroms
and over 100 years of unrelenting Arab/Islamic terrorism have taken its toll.

Erm, when were the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Holocaust????? And what on earth has the increase in Buddhism got to do with religious fighting? These hate mongers will use anything to make their case.

this sounds like the grievance list of a variety of different religious jewish right-wingers; we're still pretty upset about the holocaust obviously but don't tend to bring up pogroms, the crusades and the inquisition unless we're trying to make a point about how persecuted we are. you may notice, not being a right-wing nutter myself, though religious, i don't tend to bang the "poor us" drum a lot. they'll be concerned about demographics (we are a small and shrinking group) which is why the increase in buddhists is seen as a problem, particularly given both assimilation and intermarriage, both of which i personally consider large and challenging problems, but hardly related to the growth of christianity, islam or buddhism of course - it's not exactly like they're "stealing our people". these guys will have an agenda that we all have to be more religious and have more babies, like fundamentalists from any backgrounds. however, i think we can all agree that hate and violence from muslims towards jews is a problem not confined to the seething cauldron of the middle east, which is kind of why it's a problem when it becomes the casus belli for the deobandis running UK mosques.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

First of all, thank you Sal for taking all the time and effort on this.

Gassho

No thanks needed Snoop, I am more than happy to have the chance to set the record straight a little, so thank you for allowing me to rant.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

These are the main points that occur to me from your posts:

Originally Posted by Snoopy

-The Quran is a very old book, written at a time of tribal wars.
-It is (often? always? is?) considered to be the unquestionable word of Allah.
-Parts of it can be taken out of context and seen to promote violence, but when placed in context are at least justifiably explained.

Nothing I disagree with there.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

The Quran appears to be a mixture of religion (Allah) and politics (tribal survival, treaties etc).

I don't see the Quran in the same way. The whole book is a message from Allah to mankind, past, present and future. Yes we get from the Quran the basis and requirements of our faith but it goes beyond that and deals with social issues. We are taught that the actions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) are the ultimate example to the Muslim people. We therefore need the historical parts of the Quran (regarding treaties, etc) as examples for us throughout time. That does not mean we must ride camels or live as people did then, it gives examples to draw upon so we can make better judgements.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

The great majority of Muslims are not slaying infidels, but neither are the great majority of Christians using the Bible to do likewise (at present). The “book” plays the part of the justifier, other factors need to be in place…

But we know the Bible has been used in the same way in the past, we do not all say the Bible should be shelved. The sin is with the people, not the book.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

If there was no oil in the

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Middle East then would the US still find reasons to get involved?

I think Bosnia and Darfur answers that question quite nicely, to name but two. Here there are also two sides to the coin though. These rich pious Muslims that sign the deals with the US, sell arms to non Muslims and give money to Islamic terrorist groups, then hide behind the Quran and scream Muslim persecution (while Muslims are being killed with the weapons they made money from). It is hypocracy on both sides and shame on them all to use the name of G-d to hide behind while conducting such attrocities against people.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I’m sure these too have a part to play, but then there are people in the world who are poor and uneducated that don’t want to become terrorists, and there are also people in the world who are wealthy and educated but who are terrorists (or at least provide the backing for others).

You are right, there are rich and poor, educated and uneducated strapping bombs to themselves. We must work to find out why and try to re-educate these people or deal with their grievances if they seem genuine.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

The only solution I see (to the present “problem”), is the revision of such texts.

We can't revise the text of the Quran, it is the Word of G-d but we can and should get a clean sheet of paper and interpret it in light of modern knowledge and moral standards. Take the issue of slavery. Allah has not forbidden slavery so many scholars say that slavery is allowed under certain conditions but that those conditions do not apply in todays world (hoever may apply in the future). There is actually nothing wrong with that opinion (imho) but it gets twisted by those that want to. This filters down to people who employ housemaids and rape them (because sex with slaves is allowed). This needs to be re-interpreted, looking at the bigger picture. It isvery simple, we are told to release slaves, again and again we are told this. So a quick math lesson would suggest that after a few years there would be no slaves. Slaves can only be taken under certain strict conditions, during legitimate defensive war against the Islamic State - there is no Islamic State. Hey presto, wave your magic wand and slavery stops tomorrow, without changing a letter of the Quran. It just takes the desire and will to look for the right path. But again I say the book is not in error, just the people that interpret it.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Ultimately however, I believe that violence comes from the mind; words on a page are simply thoughts made explicit. Until the causes of violence in people’s minds are addressed, we can put any number of books on the bookshelf of history, but others will be written to replace them.

That is certainly the truth of the matter Snoop. If the Quran did not exist they would use Andy Pandy or Where's Waldo to achieve their ends. We must deal with the people and their mindset, not the books or we become them (book burning, intolerant, hypocrites).

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I apoligise for any offences caused, I am simply being honest. What I have said may well be seen as disrespectful, but that is not my intention.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

s.

You have not been in any way disrespectful Snoopy, there is much truth in what you have said and as a Muslim I find these issues difficult to understand, so why should you understand them. I agree change is needed. There must be worldwide condemnation for the terrorist attacks and also for the attacks on Muslim people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Each sides needs to look in the mirror and recognise their part in this and then STOP.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

they'll be concerned about demographics (we are a small and shrinking group) which is why the increase in buddhists is seen as a problem, particularly given both assimilation and intermarriage, both of which i personally consider large and challenging problems,

Shalom BB

Thanks for the explanation. May I ask, as sensatively as possible I hope, do you feel there will come a time for the Jewish nation when the holocaust is remembered but accepted as past? I know it must never be forgotten, lest it be repeated but I do wonder if at some time the sins/persecution of the fathers should be left behind (I know it is easy for me to say as my side were the sinners).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

hardly related to the growth of christianity, islam or buddhism of course - it's not exactly like they're "stealing our people".

But perhaps they are BB. I have been reading quite a lot recently about the people that spend their lives trying to convert others, from all religions. I am aware that any Muslim that converted a Jew would be hailed as a hero by those of that ilk. I have been saddened to see almost military type plans drawn up to convert Muslims to Christianity, Christians & Jews to Islam, etc. They even have chapters explaining who the vulnerable are in those communities (personally I find it disgraceful). Let's hide under our beds, they are out to get us.

Salaam
MW

[flowperson]

Hi Sally...What you are doing here is admirable, but I tend not to engage in specifics when it comes to religious belief. There's just so much chance for disagreement. But I am thinking along the lines of the bathtub gas fish here. The forest is so much more important than the trees, and every religion has believers that will do both good and bad. Just wanted to let you know that I'm paying attention

That said, if you haven't already looked at Dauer's first post in the Virtual Al-Andalus thread under Abrahamic Religions General Section, take a peek. I believe that all of us could learn a lot by studying a model of Islamic governed diversity that worked well in Alhambra all those years ago, at least until the Christians took over later. I'm going to start out by viewing the three part series posted on the second link.

Salaam....flow....

[InLove]

Hi All--salaam

Originally Posted by flowperson

That said, if you haven't already looked at Dauer's first post in the Virtual Al-Andalus thread under Abrahamic Religions General Section, take a peek. I believe that all of us could learn a lot by studying a model of Islamic governed diversity that worked well in Alhambra all those years ago, at least until the Christians took over later. I'm going to start out by viewing the three part series posted on the second link.

Hi flow--actually, from what I understand, the trouble started with Muslim invaders from elsewhere who were not happy about the more relaxed lifestyle of the Muslims of Al-Andalus. They may have acted at the request of or "leaks" from certain Christian factions--I'm not sure. I'll have to go back and review the film I saw. However, Ferdinand and Isabella sure didn't help matters when they united "Christian" kingdoms against Islamic influence. You know I'm not laying the blame on the Muslims--the Christians would have done it anyway. And though the Muslim invaders drove people out, I don't think that they implemented a death sentence--not in a direct sense, anyway. But I just wanted to point out that it was more or less a loose cooperation between those opposed to the kind of interfaith peace that was present there.

InPeace,
InLove

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hi Sally...What you are doing here is admirable, but I tend not to engage in specifics when it comes to religious belief.

Hi Flow

My faith is mine alone and I am not responsible for these people or feel obliged to explain the Quran but I see such beauty in the Quran and it saddens me that others, of both extreme sides, misuse it in such a despicable way. You know I am not in the business of trying to convert anyone but if just one person can read what I write and accept that there may be more to Islam than the media hyped hatred, then I shall sleep a happier woman.

Originally Posted by flowperson

That said, if you haven't already looked at Dauer's first post in the Virtual Al-Andalus thread under Abrahamic Religions General Section, take a peek.

Thank you I shall nip over for a read now.

Salaam
Sally

[InLove]

I need to correct something I said in my last post. I alluded to the "interfaith peace" that was present in Al-Andalus. I should have used the term "multi-faith peace". While there were probably some residents inclined toward interfaith, the amazing thing about the place was that people of multiple faiths got along pretty well.

InPeace,
InLove

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by flowperson

But I am thinking along the lines of the bathtub gas fish here.
Salaam....flow....

RIGHT, we can put a stop to that straight away.

SNOOPY.

[InLove]

Hey flow--You're right. And I'm right. LOL. No, I reviewed the Cities of Light program I recorded, and what I was thinking about was specifically Toledo under Alfonse VI, who supposedly was favorably predisposed to a multicultural situation. I had this mixed up with Seville, where Muslim armies from North Africa were enlisted to help defend against approaching Christian armies with disastrous results, as they held to a much stricter ideology.

Wow. I've been looking at the timelines and other things. If one is not looking for Al-Andalus, it could be really easy to miss, huh? One might never know there was actually any peace at all!

I'll leave the Al-Andalus talk for the Al-Andalus threads now.

InPeace,
InLove

[flowperson]

Hello All... The 12th to the 15th century in Spain may have been one of the pivotal times in the political and religious history of Western Civilization. And it all culminated in the last decade of the 15th century when an Italian, Cristobal Columbus, under the sponsorship of Ferdinand and Isabella, initiated Spain's lust for empire and riches in the new world, the Jews ( including the beginnings of Jewish mystical teaching, Kabbalah under Moses DeLeon ) were banished from Spain making that country almost exclusively Christian and thereby effectively placing it under the moral restrictions of the Roman Church, and the inquisition, an older form of "ethnic cleansing" picked up steam under Torquemada. The working Islamic-based multiculturalisms in Spain of the past were to be expunged and erased at any cost, and the new order was to be fiercely imposed.
As I said...pivotal. I'm very interested in the Al-Andalus thread.

Snoopy...aged flatulence initiated by healthy diet is nothing to be ashamed of and should be openly and exhuberantly exhibited, especially in the private moments of one's tub life (could this be called "irrational exhuberance" ?). After all you ARE the Lion fish and you are automatically the dominant member of the species. Fie on sharks !

Got Beano in the UK ?

flow....

[bob x]

Remember that many Muslims, particularly younger ones with less education, believe that it is wrong to question, if your imam or father or uncle, etc says this is a call to war then you simply accept what he says without question (coz he knows better than you). They say, it is an order from Allah, it is the word of G-d .......

This is the problem I have with Islam, in its entirety: the moral logic is only based on "Do whatever you are told", not on treating others as people like yourself; even if some of what you are told does lead you to treat others right, the principle that this is right, for its own sake is lost, if you are only doing it because that is what you are told (if "do what you are told" is the first principle, you are wide-open to being persuaded that God tells you something else).

May I ask, as sensatively as possible I hope, do you feel there will come a time for the Jewish nation when the holocaust is remembered but accepted as past?

First it would have to BE past. As long as Hamas etc. still exists, it is not "past" yet.

[earl]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hello All... The 12th to the 15th century in Spain may have been one of the pivotal times in the political and religious history of Western Civilization. And it all culminated in the last decade of the 15th century when an Italian, Cristobal Columbus, under the sponsorship of Ferdinand and Isabella, initiated Spain's lust for empire and riches in the new world, the Jews ( including the beginnings of Jewish mystical teaching, Kabbalah under Moses DeLeon ) were banished from Spain making that country almost exclusively Christian and thereby effectively placing it under the moral restrictions of the Roman Church, and the inquisition, an older form of "ethnic cleansing" picked up steam under Torquemada. The working Islamic-based multiculturalisms in Spain of the past were to be expunged and erased at any cost, and the new order was to be fiercely imposed.
As I said...pivotal. I'm very interested in the Al-Andalus thread.

Snoopy...aged flatulence initiated by healthy diet is nothing to be ashamed of and should be openly and exhuberantly exhibited, especially in the private moments of one's tub life (could this be called "irrational exhuberance" ?). After all you ARE the Lion fish and you are automatically the dominant member of the species. Fie on sharks !

Got Beano in the UK ?

flow....

Ah the greed, delusions, and folly of the human heart-guess Muslims, Jews, and Native Americans would not be fond of this chapter in Spanish/Christian history. earl

[InLove]

Hi Flow, Sally, & Everyone...

I just want to make sure that my comments are not being misunderstood. I can't really tell from the responses, and I haven't really been communicating a great deal lately because of circumstances in my life that most of you know about. I am not trying to dismiss horrors perpetrated by the so-called "Christian" alliances. I think you know me better than that. I was only discussing the fact that there were also terrible things done by SOME so-called "Muslims". All of this contributed to the breakdown of centuries of relative peace in Al-Andalus. I sure do wish that the program I referenced was available to post, so you could see what I am trying to point to, but it isn't. I can't tell if the videos that dauer provided present all of the same content because I haven't been able to watch all of them. My computer keeps shutting down when I try. What I have seen looks very informative, but I just want to see them all so badly! In the meantime, I am studying what I can in other ways.

On that note (and just in case), I think I will leave you with one of wil's favorite quotes: "Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood."

shalom, salaam, and peace, my brothers and sisters

InPeace,
InLove,
Deb

[flowperson]

Hi InLove...No misunderstandings here. There are good and bad people everywhere wearing differing costumes. It's just that the sequences in history always teach us so much about human nature and what really motivates us all. Thanks for raising the subject and giving some of us that opportunity for study and further understanding.

Many of us hold you in our hearts and will keep you there until the time that you are better and you are yourself again...Grammy.

flow....