Hardline takeover of mosques?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

If you look at my summary of the history

I have not seen it but look forward to seeing if it is as biased and incorrect as your summary of the above events.

Originally Posted by bob x

Deir Yassin was in response to Gush Etzion

This comment here seems to suggest that the Jews were justified in their actions at Dier Yassin, as this was in response to a previous massacre by Arabs. Now I have proved to you that Dier Yassin was prior to the other events would you now say that the Arabs were justified in their actions, as it was 'in response' to Dier Yassin?

[bob x]

Under Muslim law, the tenant peasants neither owned the land nor had any right to it;
Under what Muslim law? Where does Muslim sharia prohibit the ownership of land?

"Prohibit" ownership???? Why don't you try reading what I actually said? By the law of the existing Muslim states, the peasant tenants were not the owners; they rented it from the landlords. This was not an unusual arrangement. I don't own my apartment, either; that doesn't mean that American "prohibits" the ownership of apartments, it means my apartment is owned by somebody else.

Utter rubbish. If you want to make that argument then the land belongs not to the Jews or Arabs but to the Canaanites.

*I* wasn't the one making that argument. My point is that there has to be some kind of statute of limitations on these things.

Irgun was a terrorist organization, by any objective definition
How amazing, this was a terrorist group who did bad things to Arabs but when Arabs groups do bad things to Jews they are not terrorist groups but are demonstrative of Islamic teaching and Arab thinking.

??? OF COURSE they are terrorist groups. They are Arab Muslim terrorist groups, just like Irgun was a Jewish terrorist group.

You also do not mention the LEHI, who also took part in this attrocity.

I do not know anything about the group.

Your figure of 1000 dead is rather more even than Israeli historians that put the number between 133 and 157.

That's the number of dead. 1000 is about the total number in the "block" (Gush) of settlements.

After Kfar Etzion the other 3 settlements surrendered. The Red Cross moved the wounded to safety and the remainder became prisoners of war but were later released.

In mutilated condition.

One of the survivors, a woman, was taken to a field to be raped by two Legion soldiers, but saved by an officer.

ONE may have been raped in the immediate aftermath at Kfar Getzion, but all of them were raped eventually.

Dier Yassin massacre was in the first 2 weeks of April, a month before Gush Etzion.

The siege had been going on for months. You are correct, and I was mistaken, that the major bloodshed occurred after Deir Yassin, but the attacks on Gush Etzion were cited by Irgun as their excuse for Deir Yassin.

You then go on to site the Hadassah medical convoy massacre. AGAIN look up the dates, this was just a few days AFTER Dier Yassin

Exactly as I said.

It has happened to many people.
WOW your attitude is astounding. It has happened before, it will happen again so they should just put up and shut up and accept their fate. I wonder what you would do in their situation? Clearly you would just grab your hat and leave.

Either I would stay put (many Arabs in the Jewish zone did just that, you know), or else, if I did choose to leave, I would leave and not look back. It is difficult to get any sympathy from Americans about this, since most of us are descended from people who had to leave their former homes under various painful circumstances and build a new life for themselves.
I had to move when I was 4, again when I was 8, again when I was 12, again when I was 16. I didn't like it at the time, but I have gotten over it.

The "Jewish quarter" is not West Jerusalem;
I shall be sure to write to his family and tell them that he clearly didn't know where he lived.

He may have clearly KNOWN where he lived, but he doesn't clearly TELL US. The Jewish quarter is one place; West Jerusalem is a different place. He tells us he moved (quite voluntarily) from whichever place it was to the "Christian quarter", which was not captured in 1948, raising the question then of why it was he felt it necessary to move again: he doesn't say.

Attrocities have been committed by both sides, both sides have done wrong but you can only see the wrong committed by one side.

I quite clearly spelled out wrongs done by both sides. You just won't read it.

This comment here seems to suggest that the Jews were justified in their actions at Dier Yassin

I suggested nothing of the sort. I told you flat-out that I regarded the Irgun as terrorists.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

I do not know anything about the group.

Perhaps if you are going to site massacres, in an inflamatory manner, you should at least know who perpetrated the crime?

Originally Posted by bob x

That's the number of dead. 1000 is about the total number in the "block" (Gush) of settlements.

Can you provide some evidence for that please. Here is a link for the Jewish Virtual Library and as you can see their figure is somewhat different to yours, stating 240 dead from the kibbutz:

The Etzion Bloc

Originally Posted by bob x

In mutilated condition.

I have not read anything about this so would need a link or book reference.

Originally Posted by bob x

ONE may have been raped in the immediate aftermath at Kfar Getzion, but all of them were raped eventually.

The 'one' that I cited was not raped, as my post stated. I have searched the Jewish sites and find no mention, other than the above case, of rapes or castrations. One would assume that if this had happened as you suggest that the Jews would be keen to document it. So again some evidence for your assertion would be helpful.

Originally Posted by bob x

It is difficult to get any sympathy from Americans about this, since most of us are descended from people who had to leave their former homes under various painful circumstances and build a new life for themselves.

And yet America gives unrelenting support and sympathy for the Zionist desire to take back a land they have not lived in for 2000 years.

Originally Posted by bob x

I quite clearly spelled out wrongs done by both sides. You just won't read it.

Had I known it was there I would have read it. I have now read it and responded. I agree it is a fairer look at both sides than the views you have offered on this thread. However this discussion began with your comment:

First it would have to BE past. As long as Hamas etc. still exists, it is not "past" yet

You were of course referring to the holocaust. This comment would suggest that you view the Palestinian actions as akin to the Third Reich's treatment of the Jews and that is a veiw I find offensive and catagorically incorrect, it does not take into account the wrongs of both sides.

[bob x]

I do not know anything about the group.
Perhaps if you are going to site massacres, in an inflamatory manner, you should at least know who perpetrated the crime?

*I* didn't cite the Deir Yassin massacre, you did. You demand that I argue against your statement that another group besides Irgun participated? I don't dispute what you say. Isn't that the whole point of talking, that we might learn something we have not heard before?

Here is a link for the Jewish Virtual Library and as you can see their figure is somewhat different to yours, stating 240 dead from the kibbutz:

240 dead, 260 captured, no numbers on how many got out. The estimate I had was 1000 total in the block of settlements.

In mutilated condition.
I have not read anything about this so would need a link or book reference

The link that you put up yourself mentions the stripping and mutilating of the Haganah soldiers. I will try to find you a reference for the similar treatment of the prisoners.

One would assume that if this had happened as you suggest that the Jews would be keen to document it.

Quite the contrary, they are very reluctant to speak of such things.

It is difficult to get any sympathy from Americans about this, since most of us are descended from people who had to leave their former homes under various painful circumstances and build a new life for themselves.
And yet America gives unrelenting support and sympathy for the Zionist desire to take back a land they have not lived in for 2000 years

They have built lives for themselves, and we respect that. 100 years we had nothing to do with the Zionist project, and were encouraging Jews to settle here, instead.

Had I known it was there I would have read it. I have now read it and responded. I agree it is a fairer look at both sides than the views you have offered on this thread.

I had asked you to read it at the start of the post which you responded to.

First it would have to BE past. As long as Hamas etc. still exists, it is not "past" yet
You were of course referring to the holocaust. This comment would suggest that you view the Palestinian actions as akin to the Third Reich's treatment of the Jews

Hamas is the institutional continuation of Qassam's "Brotherhood", which was proud in the 30's to call itself the local branch of the global fascist movement. The Palestinian actions were PART of the Third Reich's treatment of the Jews, a part which has not ever stopped.

[bob x]

OK, this is what I find about "LEHI": it was the self-name (Hebrew acronym "For the Freedom of Israel", alluding to Samson's use of a lehi "jawbone" as a weapon against the Pilistim "Philistines; Palestinians") of the group I called the "Stern gang", and then the name of the "shock troops" faction within Irgun. Menachem Begin (deputy to Stern, then leader of the Irgun) did not personally participate in the LEHI group, but Yitzchaq Shamir (also later a Prime Minister) did.
For your information, these are my dealings with Begin:
I was incensed by the "Rosh Hashanah massacre" at the Sabra and Chatila camps: that it happened at all; that it was done at the start of the High Holy Days; and that Begin made excuses about how Israelis hadn't done the killings themselves (just hired "Rosh Hashanah goyim" to do it for them). I wrote a very strong protest: on a strip of red cloth, I painted in darker red pigment, in archaic Hebrew, in a severe square-hand, "channeling" the prophet Elijah. I cited all the provisions of the Torah which Begin was in violation of, and concluded chay-YHWH im nappol mat.ar pen k-divri "as G-d lives, no raindrop shall fall, save by my word!" (Elijah's curse on king Ahab after the murder of Naboth)
My anger satisfied, I forgot about it until the next summer, when I read an article that it had not rained anywhere in Israel all year long. I wrote Begin again (in English, black ink on plain paper), saying that by allowing crowds to hail him Begin, Melekh Yhudim he had put himself under the jurisdiction of the prophet Elijah (I wanted him to know I had sent the curse last fall, but did not overtly allude to it), and that he had until Yom Kippur to repent. Shortly before Yom Kippur, he resigned the premiership, although his majority in the Knesset was secure, and refused for the rest of his life to answer any questions about why he had done so. I wrote him a card (stylized calligraphy in blue artist's pencil on white cardboard), L-shanah t.ovah tiktav

[Tao_Equus]

Bob X,
I cannot profess to be a scholar of the intricacies of history that you an MW discuss here but i thank you both for what you bring to my personal knowledge base. It is truly enriching.

Sacrifice. A word synonymous with religion. Where does it begin..stop....end... and for what purpose?

What I am working on shows me many prominent Jews were prominent, perhaps even orchestrator's, of the holocaust. It seems a crazy statement I know, it has caused me great personal conflict/consternation to arrive at this conclusion.....but.. the ideology of these nutters is so far removed from our thinking that we have all beeen fooled into false assumptions. I really believe we are all being fooled....
as you will see....................
I hate fascist thought.......and i feel alone......in the face of what is about to................................................

[bob x]

"It seems a crazy statement I know"
Much worse than that. Don't let yourself get sucked into evil delusional cult thinking.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

They have built lives for themselves, and we respect that. 100 years we had nothing to do with the Zionist project, and were encouraging Jews to settle here, instead.

Would that be after the St Louis was turned away from America, with 936 Jews onboard? Many of those Jews died in the death camps.

Either way that is all history. The real issue is why are young Arabs blowing themselves up, what drives them to it? Also what drove the Palestinians to vote a terrorist organisation into power?

The answer to the first question is quite simple, they live in occupied territories. I realise your view is that Islam is to blame for everything but that is simply not true, it ignores the human aspect of what ordinary Palestinians are going through. They want health care, food, housing, education, clean water and for many Hamas were the only people providing these basic needs. That does not mean they support terrorism, it means that Fatah had become so corrupt and had failed to deliver the people from the poverty of occupation, so they took the only real alternative. They were also scared that Fatah were going to give way on key negotiating points, such as the right of return for refugees.

When you and I think about Hamas we only think about the violence they commit and speak about. For the people of Palestine they are at least honest and offer some semblence of a normal day to day life. Your average Palestinian is aware that violence is counter productive and that new negotiations with Israel are the way forward and I feel sure many Jews kniw the same thing, as usual it is the politicians thatare getting in the way.

Hamas were voted in by free and fair elections, 78% of voters turned out (rather more than either of our countries I believe). One of the issues that really swung the elections toward Hamas was the interference by the US government, who had given money to Fatah for their campaign. This was discovered and announced a few days before the elections. Can you imagine how that increased the anger of the voters, the US that supports Israel so strongly was now trying to pay for corrupt officials to stay in power. It was hardly going to build confidence of a future without occupation.

After the election the US then made a hug deal about no-one speaking with Hamas and Blair (the bloody puppet) agreed to go along, despite the fact that we had been through the same thing with Sinn Fien and it was Blair that decided after all these years that negotiations were the only way forward - when was the last violent episode oncerning the IRA?

There are numerous terrorist organisations that have become legitimate political parties (one of the difficulties is always the time it takes to distance themselves from the violence of the past). In Israel the LEHI switched strategy and many members have held senior government positions. Sinn Fien are now a legitimate political party, yet many of their leaders have planted bombs. Nelson Mandella, who himself planted bombs and was declared a terrorist, is now hailed as a hero and a statue of him was erected in London a few weeks ago. These things can only be achieved by participation in the government process and all this 'we are not speaking to you' is going to achieve nothing.

The fact that Hamas, who always refused to take part in elections, even stood for the elections should be seen as a step forward. Their stance on the destruction of Israel is unacceptable but if you read their election manifesto it did not mention the destruction of Israel, they have even hinted that they may be willing to discuss Israel as a State with third parties - that is one hell of a step forward for them imo. They have not changed their charter, so the destruction of Israel still exists there but these snippets put together may suggest a change in strategy but things rarely change overnight.

Don't forget, back in 2001, it was Sharon that halted negotiations and switched to a policy of unilateral moves to create permanent borders between Israel and the occupied territories. Sharon was working outside international law when he disengaged from Gaza, continued settlement building in the West Bank and began the building of the Seperation Barrier.

Israel can legitimately point to the Hamas refusal to denounce suicide bombings and killing of civilians as 'leaving no-one to negotiate with' but of course they said that in Fatha's days as well, when Fatah were denouncing violence and offering to negotiate. We know Hamas will not budge on important negotiating points, as Fatah would have done and I imagaine there are those in Israel that now wished they had negotiated with Fatha.

Why should Israel negotiate with a group that calls for it's destruction? If they ever want peace it is the only way forward. Israel has it's fair share of blood on it's hands and if it can accept that and negotiate then things can move forward. The violence committed by Hamas is unacceptable and indefensable, however so is demolishing houses while families are still inside (look up Sharon as he gave the order, I think it was about 1982 but may be wrong on the date).

It is very difficult to cultivate radical extremists if there is nothing to fight against but while the occupation continues and governments refuse to negotiate with a freely elected group, then expect further violence from people that want their freedom, land and human rights back. This also feeds the extremists in other countries to take action on behalf of their brothers in occupied territories.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Much worse than that. Don't let yourself get sucked into evil delusional cult thinking.

There is actually quite a lot of evidence to substantiate such a view. It is not just Muslims and Christians that have sold their own out for profit over the centuries.

[bob x]

"100 years we had nothing to do with the Zionist project, and were encouraging Jews to settle here, instead."
Would that be after the St Louis was turned away from America, with 936 Jews onboard?

Are you having basic arithmetic problems? (I wouldn't be so hard on you if you didn't make such a deal about precise sequencings of events--- and then botch the sequence of events so egregiously)
ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO was the beginning of the 20th century, when the Zionist project was getting started. America had nothing to do with that, and that time was encouraging everyone who faced persecution to come here. In the 1920's, we did 180-degree, and closed down immigration tight.

The real issue is why are young Arabs blowing themselves up, what drives them to it?

A sick variety of Islam. Many nationalities have "lived in occupied territories", and put up with much worse hardships, without turning self-destructively insane in this manner. It is not unique to Islam, of course: other ideologies were involved in the case of the Irish and the Tamils.

They were also scared that Fatah were going to give way on key negotiating points, such as the right of return for refugees.

This complete refusal to understand that they lost the war, and that result is not going to be reversed, is a basic part of the insanity. Until they understand that the refugees are not going to return, there is no hope for them.

After the election the US then made a huge deal about no-one speaking with Hamas

I agree with you that this was stupid.

Why should Israel negotiate with a group that calls for it's destruction? If they ever want peace it is the only way forward.

A lot of Israelis don't believe anymore that there is any possibility of peace. If perpetuation of the war is all they have to look forward to, then the only thing for them to do is make sure their side is strong and the other side weak.

Much worse than that. Don't let yourself get sucked into evil delusional cult thinking.
There is actually quite a lot of evidence to substantiate such a view.

This kind of rubbish is the ugliest part of modern Islam. You were asking me when the Holocaust will be over? I tell you again: it needs to stop, first. YOU, yes, YOU, are still working for the Nazis. They are weaker now, but have never completely gone away.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

There is actually quite a lot of evidence to substantiate such a view. It is not just Muslims and Christians that have sold their own out for profit over the centuries.

i'm talking about historians, not conspiracy nutters, neo-nazis and apologists for anti-semitism. i appreciate the point you are probably trying to make but to suggest that jews in any way instigated or encouraged the shoah is not a respectable point of view. profiting from it (as some israeli political strands seek to do) or using it to browbeat political opponents is the great proposition of the controversial historian norman finkelstein, but even he never suggested, as far as i am aware, that we actually started it, or brought it upon ourselves. that is the province of the president of iran and his friends in the neo-nazi world.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i'm talking about historians, not conspiracy nutters, neo-nazis and apologists for anti-semitism. i appreciate the point you are probably trying to make but to suggest that jews in any way instigated or encouraged the shoah is not a respectable point of view. profiting from it (as some israeli political strands seek to do) or using it to browbeat political opponents is the great proposition of the controversial historian norman finkelstein, but even he never suggested, as far as i am aware, that we actually started it, or brought it upon ourselves. that is the province of the president of iran and his friends in the neo-nazi world.

b'shalom

bananabrain

My apologies BB that is not what I meant to suggest in any way. I believe you have read some of my posts concerning the holocaust and am aware that I am not anti-Semetic.

My suggstions in this thread are that there are good and bad on all sides, good and bad deeds have been done by all sides. Bob's bigotted view of Islam just gets up my nose.

My suggestion was that some people of the Jewish nation, during WWII, by choice and self interest worked for the Nazi's during the war, some made a profit from selling out their own people. Personally I would call them Jewish by default, in that they were born to Jewish parents but that is all. In the same way that some people are Muslim by default. These people were very few and far between but their actions were far reaching. It is also notable that some Germans worked very hard to protect Jews during the holocaust. No side (ie a label for a group of people) was totally blameless and no side was totally innocent - the innocent were the oppressed.

I believe there are currently Russian immigrant Jewish Nazi's in Israel now. No stretch of the immagination would call these people Jews, only in that they hail from Jewish parents. There are bad people in every faith, every culture and every stage of history.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

YOU, yes, YOU, are still working for the Nazis. They are weaker now, but have never completely gone away.

I had thought that you had a good heart but an ugly mind. I see now that your heart is as ugly and full of hate as your mind.

[bob x]

You take the side of Nazi propagandists, and then pretend that you didn't, and whine about how dare we accuse you of doing such a thing, and you have the freaking nerve to call MY heart ugly?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

You take the side of Nazi propagandists, and then pretend that you didn't, and whine about how dare we accuse you of doing such a thing, and you have the freaking nerve to call MY heart ugly?

Oh get over yourself Bob. You start bandying words like victim and whine about, I am neither a victim or whining, I am just bloody angry at your usual attitude.

Look at my response to you and my response to BB and ask why I would respond in such different manners. BB can put his point across very strongly without name calling and insulting people, this is a lesson you obviously are yet to learn.