Have you...

Silas · 02-07-2007, 11:46 PM

Ever wonder why angels do not get redemption and we do? What is man that God is mindful of us? God is so holy and just that He is absolutely right and fair and just and loving in his decision to punish Satan and the other fallen angels for their sins. God is just in not giving them redemption. Why do men who sinned worst and sin more in number and who shake their puny fist at God; cursing Him for times when sorrow and tradegy occurs and almost never praising for thousand upon thousand of days of wrath withheld, get the Son of God, albeit, God in the flesh to suffer and die for them? Also, while I'm asking this. Why do most people choose not to believe this, but instead supress the truth in unrighteousness and go after religons to appease their conscience?

Have you guys ever wonder that stuff?

Prober · 02-08-2007, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Why do men who sinned worst and sin more in number and who shake their puny fist at God; cursing Him for times when sorrow and tradegy occurs and almost never praising for thousand upon thousand of days of wrath withheld, get the Son of God, albeit, God in the flesh to suffer and die for them? Also, while I'm asking this. Why do most people choose not to believe this, but instead supress the truth in unrighteousness and go after religons to appease their conscience?

Question 1: Because it makes a better example to the Devil that G-d is more than fair and that if you give us free will, a few of us will choose to struggle (pitifully) to choose and do good (even though we can't without His help).

Question 2: I have no idea...

Silas · 02-08-2007, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Question 1: Because it makes a better example to the Devil that G-d is more than fair and that if you give us free will, a few of us will choose to struggle (pitifully) to choose and do good (even though we can't without His help).

Question 2: I have no idea...

Concerning question 1 and your answer to it. If we have free will (and we do) and we choose to sin with it (and we do), why do we get redemption and the angels who sinned do not? They choose to sin like we choose to sin. What is man that God is mindful of Him?

BlaznFattyz · 02-08-2007, 06:26 AM

angels are a different set of created beings already in heaven, with no need of salvation. men have free will and choose to accept god thru faith. we have weak corruptible bodies and are subject to sin, yet through christ we are exalted, and we will be glorified from our low place, and the angels rejoice.

Prober · 02-08-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Concerning question 1 and your answer to it. If we have free will (and we do) and we choose to sin with it (and we do), why do we get redemption and the angels who sinned do not? They choose to sin like we choose to sin. What is man that God is mindful of Him?

Warmest Greetings, Brother!

As I understand it the angels who have never fallen still have free will. G-d will not allow Heaven to have any sin in it. The angels who have fallen have made their choice and have no option for redemption because the Devil's original statement was "I will be like the most high" which is blasphemy (in the context in which he said it) and all of the angels who agreed blasphemed in the same way (long sentence!). Perhaps this was also the equivalent of sinning against the Holy Spirit, for which there is no forgiveness or redemption.

Man was a fresh chance for G-d to prove that people would actually choose Him if given free will, even if in a world ruled by that blasphemer.

The Devil came up with his ideas on his own. Man comes up with his evil ideas with quite a bit of help from the Tempter. Maybe that's another reason for Grace.

Your thoughts?

Regards,
Mark

Silas · 02-08-2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Warmest Greetings, Brother!

As I understand it the angels who have never fallen still have free will. G-d will not allow Heaven to have any sin in it. The angels who have fallen have made their choice and have no option for redemption because the Devil's original statement was "I will be like the most high" which is blasphemy (in the context in which he said it) and all of the angels who agreed blasphemed in the same way (long sentence!). Perhaps this was also the equivalent of sinning against the Holy Spirit, for which there is no forgiveness or redemption.

Man was a fresh chance for G-d to prove that people would actually choose Him if given free will, even if in a world ruled by that blasphemer.

The Devil came up with his ideas on his own. Man comes up with his evil ideas with quite a bit of help from the Tempter. Maybe that's another reason for Grace.

Your thoughts?

Regards,
Mark

Hey bro,

What you said in your first sentence, I thought was great! But, it is still only conjecture at best. I dont see in scripture any reason why we shoud think that satan's stupid thoughts of thinking he could overthrew God was equivalant to blasphemy agaisnt the Spirit. Also, I do not see from scripture any reason to believe that those fallen angel's sin were any worst than ours. I see God as being so Holy that all forms of sin is infinitly wicked in His pure and pefect eyes. Remember Hab 1:13..."Thou art of pure eyes than to behold evil, and can not look on iniquity." I find it amazing that God would save man and not angels. Angels get what they deserve for sinning against God. We get justified through Jesus' finished work on the cross. We get what we do not deserve. Is this why the scriptures say that angels long to look into salvation and why they wonder about us? Is this why Job and others in the Bible said, "what is man that God is mindful of us?" I know that God chooses to love us! That much is certain. But my question is why; especially after seeing both from scripture and in my own life, reason for God to hate me and send me into the deepest parts of His hell. All that said, isnt it great to be a Christian? Wow!

Prober · 02-08-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

But, it is still only conjecture at best. I dont see in scripture any reason why we shoud think that satan's stupid thoughts of thinking he could overthrew God was equivalant to blasphemy agaisnt the Spirit.

Found this...doesn't specifically say "Holy Spirit" but I'd call it blasphemy...

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:13,14

Silas · 02-08-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Found this...doesn't specifically say "Holy Spirit" but I'd call it blasphemy...

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:13,14

No-no...I agree with you! I believe what satan did was blamphemy and stupid! But, I dont see reason to beleive that it is the unpardonable sin - namely, blasmphemy agasint the Spirit. See what I'm saying? In fact, the unpardonable sin consist of a person denying the spirit after He is convicting them of truth and telling them of their need for Christ. Satan already knew God. See what I'm saying?

Prober · 02-08-2007, 05:44 PM

and found this...

Hebrews 1:

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

(of course, read the whole thing)

None of this says the fallen angels blasphemed the Holy Spirit. My conjecture could be errant...

Prober · 02-08-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

See what I'm saying?

Yeah, I think you're correct.

Dondi · 02-08-2007, 06:45 PM

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that the angels have already seen God in all His glory, while we as human have not...yet. They have no excuse for rebellion against God for they already know all there is to know about God with first hand experience.

We humans are at a great disadvantage. Except for perhaps a select few who may have seen God in His glory in NDEs, visions, dreams, and the like, no one really knows what God's Kingdom really entails. All we have to go by is the Scriptures. God remains hidden to us, until we find Him in our heart.

Silas · 02-08-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that the angels have already seen God in all His glory, while we as human have not...yet. They have no excuse for rebellion against God for they already know all there is to know about God with first hand experience.

We humans are at a great disadvantage. Except for perhaps a select few who may have seen God in His glory in NDEs, visions, dreams, and the like, no one really knows what God's Kingdom really entails. All we have to go by is the Scriptures. God remains hidden to us, until we find Him in our heart.

What you said concerning our disadvantage makes a lot of sense. I think you have have a point. Although, as I'm thinking this though, people like Moses and Isiah saw God's Glory, sined over and over again, and they were still forgiven. Granted, they didnt see God as the angels do, but they still saw way more than most of humanity did. Now that I'm thinking about it, Adam and Eve saw Jesus in all of His glory the garden and they sinned and recieved forgivenss. Why were they forgiven and not the fallen angels? I tell you, man is really a blessed creature. Jesus became a man to save men. I know Satan hates that!

Quahom1 · 02-10-2007, 04:42 AM

Romans 8: 19 "For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."

Creation does not sin, but is subject to the affects of sin because of Adam (Adam was in charge of creation). God, provided man with a redeemer through Jesus who became one of man and died for man. By taking the sins of man, the creation will no longer be subject to the affects of sin.

However, angels were not under the charge of Adam. They sinned of their own will, apart from Adam. And unlike Adam they were fully aware of the glory of God, yet did as they wished anyway. And also unlike man, God made no provision for the salvation of fallen angels. Jesus did not become one of them, nor took their sins upon himself in order to redeem them.

Now God of course has the power to do anything He pleases, including redeeming fallen angels, however the Bible does not tell us that this is God's intention. All it tells us is what God intends for man kind. I think that is because that is what God want's us to concentrate on, and not the plight of beings that are not us, are higher than us and are supposed to know better than us.

v/r

Joshua

Prober · 02-10-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Romans 8: 19 "For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."

Thanks, Q! This says it perfectly. Don't remember reading it before.

Quote:

Now God of course has the power to do anything He pleases, including redeeming fallen angels, however the Bible does not tell us that this is God's intention. All it tells us is what God intends for man kind. I think that is because that is what God want's us to concentrate on, and not the plight of beings that are not us, are higher than us and are supposed to know better than us.

v/r

Joshua

This sums up how I feel as well.

Many thanks.
Mark

Silas · 02-10-2007, 06:04 PM

Quahom

Romans 8: 19 "For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."

Creation does not sin, but is subject to the affects of sin because of Adam (Adam was in charge of creation). God, provided man with a redeemer through Jesus who became one of man and died for man. By taking the sins of man, the creation will no longer be subject to the affects of sin.

I think the word "creation" there isnt talking about humans. Here's why:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Romans 5:12-14)

All men have sinned in Adam so we're all guilty. God's holiness decrees that we arent only guilty for our sins, but we're also guilty supernaturally through Adam, as well.