Heaven, Hell and the Devil.

wil · 10-10-2006, 01:25 PM

Knowing my viewpoint is to radical for the regular board...so lets discuss those liberal thoughts here...

Get behind me Satan, to me is pushing those negative thoughts those errant ways from my being and psyche.

Hell is living in a material world as it mattered, hording, worrying about loss, jealousy etc.

Heaven is that bliss, when we realize oneness, I and the Father are one, being in this world but not of it...those moments at first were rare...but as they increase we touch another space and time.

Virtual_Cliff · 10-10-2006, 01:35 PM

There was a great post a while ago in which all of Jesus's references to the Kingdom of God were listed according to whether they referred to some time in the future or to the present. Most of them, on careful reading, referred to the present.

My personal opinion is that the commonly held ideas of Heaven and Hell as reward and punishment after our death, are the biggest obstacles to truly giving our lives to God. How can we genuinely love God if we believe that we will get rewarded for it "in Heaven"? What does it say about us if the only reason we abstain from wrong is to avoid punishment "in Hell".

I would recommend to anyone on the Path to assume there is no life after death. This thought will liberate them into the present.

shadowman · 10-12-2006, 08:16 PM

god controls everything. we arent abstaining from doing wrong for god, he gives us grace to help us abtain from doing wrong. hell is where we are going if we live against god. and we are created with a mind of the flesh and of isin. if we do a number of good works it is only gods will tat is keeping us from sinking to the evils of someone as bad as hitler. heaven is the chance to be with god in holness, but e is offering us the chance to know him on earth.

i actually agree with you man, i thik it makes sense that heaven and hell are ttes of mind and that is what the real jesus was preaching. this sermon thinks that god is in the bible and tats exactly what god thinks and all. o if jesus did other things or taugt other things, the most important stuff is in the bible and should be interpreted as it is written in the bible.

im not sure if that is correct.

but thats where this sermon is comming from

moseslmpg · 10-12-2006, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

I would recommend to anyone on the Path to assume there is no life after death. This thought will liberate them into the present.

Exactly. The Noble Lie.

I agree with you as well, wil. If one approaches religion from a psychological point of view, it all makes sense...usually.

shadowman · 10-12-2006, 08:34 PM

it seems to me that deep thinking goes against this breed of christianity. and yes i agree with focus on the present. in poor countries, people dont have time to realize their sinful natures in order to appreciate gods gift of salvation. its in this crazy screwed up country where everyone has low self esteem and looking for a greater good that this kind of preacing works.

well that might not be true.

but anyway.

in some places, there is no time for this, because people are dying and you are starving. no time to think that your baby cousins are dying because of gods terrbile glorific wrath, while everyone in america is eating well.

moseslmpg · 10-12-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

it seems to me that deep thinking goes against this breed of christianity. and yes i agree with focus on the present. in poor countries, people dont have time to realize their sinful natures in order to appreciate gods gift of salvation. its in this crazy screwed up country where everyone has low self esteem and looking for a greater good that this kind of preacing works.

well that might not be true.

but anyway.

in some places, there is no time for this, because people are dying and you are starving. no time to think that your baby cousins are dying because of gods terrbile glorific wrath, while everyone in america is eating well.

I would say that in places where people are poorer they are more spiritual in a sense that they appreciate more and they look to something other than themselves to sustain them. I have witnessed this in a few countries I've been to, where even though people live in abject poverty they are unusually happy. I think it's the opposite, where when we have our TVs, and videogames, and fashion etc. we focus too much on that are are not thankful or receptive to spirituality and are thus less likely to pursue a spiritual path.

Personally this is what the Buddhist realms means to me. They represent different types of people in different conditions. The rich people are the gods, and the poor people are the hungry ghosts or something similar.

shadowman · 10-12-2006, 09:04 PM

nesflash, those happy people are filling themselves with the devil, not god!!!!!

wil · 10-12-2006, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

nesflash, those happy people are filling themselves with the devil, not god!!!!!

Often they are allowing the devil, the monkey mind, to take control of themselves. Relying on material things, believing in what was sold to us by the capitolists. Not to say capitolism is bad, just buying into the keeping up with the joneses.

Please to remember shadow, this is the liberal garden, we welcome the discussion, but if you wish to spew fire and brimstone this is the place to do it metaphorically.

I don't believe man is sinful to the core or even by nature. Maybe by choice. I've encountered to many wonderful, caring compassionate people, and NEWSFLASH, they haven't all been christian...but I have found 99.999% of the people to be good and giving to a fault and know that .001% make the paper and the evening news...

taijasi · 10-12-2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I don't believe man is sinful to the core or even by nature. Maybe by choice. I've encountered to many wonderful, caring compassionate people, and NEWSFLASH, they haven't all been christian...but I have found 99.999% of the people to be good and giving to a fault and know that .001% make the paper and the evening news...

I agree with you 100%, and I like your first post, wil. Right on!!!

It may be a bit like the Chinese curse, when it comes to capitalism, however:

May you live in interesting times!

Aargh! Indeed, we do!

andrew

shadowman · 10-13-2006, 12:52 AM

i was beng facetious

Virtual_Cliff · 10-13-2006, 02:01 PM

I can't see where you're coming from Shadow. St Paul said "Choose life". We have got the choice by the grace of God. But it's up to us to choose wisely.

We in the West have a hard choice. We can't serve God AND money, but money IS the god of the West. What we have to be is subversive, and not believe in the voices that say - There is no spirit, there is no God, there is only science and consumerism. We have to be rebels.

wil · 10-13-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

...We in the West have a hard choice. We can't serve God AND money, but money IS the god of the West. What we have to be is subversive, and not believe in the voices that say - There is no spirit, there is no God, there is only science and consumerism. We have to be rebels.

Namaste V_C,

This is sort of where the rubber meets the road. A decision. For a while I was leaning toward giving up the material, living on service and grace. But then I looked at this world/plane of existence that we were gifted as a learning/growing medium and decided to take full advantage of all it has to offer.

On the capitalist side, I think of Gates and Forbes and Carnegie and wonder if they decided not to be capitolist the millions and billions they wouldn't have created, that couldn't have done good works.....

Virtual_Cliff · 10-13-2006, 05:10 PM

Hmm. I don't see a straight choice between service/grace and learning/growing. Surely these can be combined - but it's up to everyone to find their own way. Not everyone can be a saint.

As for your philanthropists, they are not my heroes. There is a difference between creating wealth and taking it from others. IIRC Carnegie's steel workers were paid the least possible going wage. As for Gates, I can't decide. I don't think he did it for money or for the common good. I think he did it because he is a geek. I notice you did not include Edward Kronk who gave us the McDonalds hamburger. Was that a service to mankind too?

wil · 10-13-2006, 06:04 PM

Oh, I am not saying they are my heroes....I am saying these folks took material wealth and the capitolistic system and then created huge foundations which in turn will benefit the world at large.

No Gates may not have had that intention, but the end result is his philanthropic notions changed. And all of these folks do have skeletons in their closets (and many skeletons out of the closet that we are fully aware of) and we can argue about wages and benefits but if it were not for them where would those tens of thousands of people be employed? Most of us do take the best opportunity for employment available to us at our level of skill and other personal requirements (hours of work, commuting distance etc)

McDonalds didn't give us the hamburger like Ford didn't give us automobile...they both utilized the assembly line. And there is the Ronald McDonald Houses not to say its enough to offset the extra pounds and cardiac care...but

The first House opened in Philadelphia in 1974.

There are more than 245 Ronald McDonald Houses in 26 countries: Argentina, Australia, Austria, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, England, Finland, France, Germany, Guatemala, Honduras, Hong Kong, Hungary, Ireland, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Romania, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United States.

Since 1974, the Ronald McDonald House program has helped more than 10 million families.

More than 6,000 bedrooms worldwide are available for families every night.

The Ronald McDonald Houses are supported by more than 30,000 volunteers who donate 1 million hours of their time each year.

Founders of the first Ronald McDonald House in Philadelphia selected the name because of the commitment of McDonald's Corporation and because this beloved clown is a symbol of happiness to children around the world.

Blue Jay · 10-14-2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

There was a great post a while ago in which all of Jesus's references to the Kingdom of God were listed according to whether they referred to some time in the future or to the present. Most of them, on careful reading, referred to the present.

My personal opinion is that the commonly held ideas of Heaven and Hell as reward and punishment after our death, are the biggest obstacles to truly giving our lives to God. How can we genuinely love God if we believe that we will get rewarded for it "in Heaven"? What does it say about us if the only reason we abstain from wrong is to avoid punishment "in Hell".

I would recommend to anyone on the Path to assume there is no life after death. This thought will liberate them into the present.

Virtual Cliff, I like your posts. I like what you say here--these two highlighted questions are very thought-provoking.

Quote:

As for Gates, I can't decide. I don't think he did it for money or for the common good. I think he did it because he is a geek.

This is so perceptive. As I was reading this part you really had me curious.....he didn't do it for the money and he didn't do it for the greater good...What, I wondered, could possibly be left? He's a geek who does what he does because he's a geek. There is a satisfaction in creating for its own sake. And if you can get someone to pay you for it--hey! so much the better!