Hell is the Grave

[wil]

I told you I was confused, I was confusing you with another new poster, my apologies.

All people believe their way is the "right way," as I am sure you do.

No, not all. I don't believe my way is the right way for anyone but me, in this moment and folks that also agree in this moment. I believe your way is the right way for you, in this moment.

So you think there are "Bible Nuts"? Can you define this for us? I may be one.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by ARMyers

All people believe their way is the "right way," as I am sure you do.

I going to second wil here.

My way, is just one way. People all around the world are able to connect with God through a myriad different practices and beliefs. I would say that the common denominators of these paths are compassion and wisdom, but the exact methods vary from religion to religion, person to person.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by ARMyers

We are all humans after all and subject of our flesh. Every single one of us is a hypocrite at some point in time. While we say how to walk in the spirit, we do things that go against it.

I think this is not so much hypocrasy as error or disobediance. Hypocrasy is striving for mere appearances. It can be for fooling others but more often for fooling ourselves. It is also called boasting of the flesh, and this is the problem I refer to. This boast is that you, a Christian, are able to 'keep' doctrines. If humans are able to keep them, then how is it that they can change?

Originally Posted by ARMyers

We are united in bonds of fellowship with one another through common belief in doctrine called the First Principals which are basic beliefs that are different than mainstream beliefs of other churches such as the Trinity and the immortal soul.

These are not bonds of fellowship, but artificial divisions forcing you into an isolated little dot. These first principles, these basic beliefs, these are rules taught by men. Of course they have an appearance of righteousness, but they actually have no value as indicators of God's favor. Perhaps you call them teachings or doctrines. They are opinions, but they ought not to be a saw to sever Christ. So you think the Trinity is false and someone else doesn't. That is a gnat. It does not remove your responsibility towards them.

Originally Posted by ARMyers

None of us would declare himself righteous.

Who would? That would be too obviously false. Even the pope doesn't say that. What you say instead is "We are united in bonds of fellowship with one another through common belief in doctrine." which is patently unscriptural. It is anti-christian. It really means you've dropped all responsibility for anyone you don't agree with. 1 John 1:5 tells us that God is light and then contrasts us against, saying we may walk in that light but "8 if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." John is making the point that doctrine (light) is not something you and I can 'Have' or be in this context. In other words, you cannot know, on the basis of doctrine, whether your brethren also walk in the light with you. God can shine through them but that's all. Division is human, artificial. Instead, says John brother of Jesus, 3:7 "7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous."
I John 1:9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.

The main source for this 'No doctrine' concept, is John the Baptist. Matthew says he is the voice of Isaiah 40:3-5 which says:
3 "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

As a Berean, you must know that this leveling must refer to the removal of human spiritual doctrinal authority, creeds etc. That is why John the Baptist was persecuted by authorities. He declared the end of their authority and ours.

Originally Posted by ARMyers

Many of us do go out to other faiths to try to each the Truth but are often thrown out by the pasture.

The issue here is that they are also Christian. They are as Christian as you can ever be, doctrines or no doctrines. They say that they are Christian and that they want to be Christian. How is it that you can suggest their disagreement on a doctrine makes them unchristian? I see this 'going out' of yours as sort of like the friendly guesture of burying your master's gold so it doesn't get lost. Where is the increase? You are the Christian, so you are the investment. Just visiting is a fearful approach. You're saying you have a hard master who won't understand if you fellowship incorrectly and risk his investment.

[Dream]

Matthew 16:15-19
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

I will suggest to you that the foundation stone of the church is that God deals directly with man. This was the stone the builders rejected. They could not accept it, so they were crushed under it when it came. That's how the story goes. It is the same stone you reject when you stay seperate from fellow Christians over a doctrinal dispute.

[ARMyers]

Originally Posted by Dream

I think this is not so much hypocrasy as error or disobediance. Hypocrasy is striving for mere appearances. It can be for fooling others but more often for fooling ourselves. It is also called boasting of the flesh, and this is the problem I refer to. This boast is that you, a Christian, are able to 'keep' doctrines. If humans are able to keep them, then how is it that they can change?
These are not bonds of fellowship, but artificial divisions forcing you into an isolated little dot. These first principles, these basic beliefs, these are rules taught by men. Of course they have an appearance of righteousness, but they actually have no value as indicators of God's favor. Perhaps you call them teachings or doctrines. They are opinions, but they ought not to be a saw to sever Christ. So you think the Trinity is false and someone else doesn't. That is a gnat. It does not remove your responsibility towards them.

Who would? That would be too obviously false. Even the pope doesn't say that. What you say instead is "We are united in bonds of fellowship with one another through common belief in doctrine." which is patently unscriptural. It is anti-christian. It really means you've dropped all responsibility for anyone you don't agree with. 1 John 1:5 tells us that God is light and then contrasts us against, saying we may walk in that light but "8 if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." John is making the point that doctrine (light) is not something you and I can 'Have' or be in this context. In other words, you cannot know, on the basis of doctrine, whether your brethren also walk in the light with you. God can shine through them but that's all. Division is human, artificial. Instead, says John brother of Jesus, 3:7 "7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous."
I John 1:9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.

The main source for this 'No doctrine' concept, is John the Baptist. Matthew says he is the voice of Isaiah 40:3-5 which says:
3 "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

As a Berean, you must know that this leveling must refer to the removal of human spiritual doctrinal authority, creeds etc. That is why John the Baptist was persecuted by authorities. He declared the end of their authority and ours.
The issue here is that they are also Christian. They are as Christian as you can ever be, doctrines or no doctrines. They say that they are Christian and that they want to be Christian. How is it that you can suggest their disagreement on a doctrine makes them unchristian? I see this 'going out' of yours as sort of like the friendly guesture of burying your master's gold so it doesn't get lost. Where is the increase? You are the Christian, so you are the investment. Just visiting is a fearful approach. You're saying you have a hard master who won't understand if you fellowship incorrectly and risk his investment.

I admire your intelligence. You seem to have wisdom. Perhaps you can answer these passages. I will quote some verses, but read the whole thing in context if you please.

1 Tim 6 "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

1 Cor 5 "But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person" and "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened." This applies specifically to a sexually immoral man and generally to any that "be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." In this way he may realize the error of his ways and return to the faith.

1 Cor 10 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."

2 Cor 6 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" and "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" In case you do not know, Belial is of the tribe of Benjamin of Israel (part of the nation of God) that forsook the Lord and raped and killed a concubine which caused all of Israel to almost destroy all of the tribe of Benjamin. "Infidel" means unbeliever. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

Eph 5 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" and "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."

1 John 1 "If we say that we have fellowship with him [Yahweh], and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." In other words, the light is truth and we must walk in truth and fellowship all of the light and none in darkness. Our position is to try to bring those in darkness into the light of truth.

The Trinity theory is not a gnat by the way. It means that they, being of those that believe that Jesus is the Father, believe in another Diety and preach another gospel such as those argued against in Gal 1.

When we went out to other churches, we spoke with the preachers and ministers, many of whom agreed with us and knowingly rejected the truth because their ministry would leave.

The bonds of fellowship in which I speak is of the light spoken of in 1 John in which we are in fellowship with all those in the truth transcendent of space and time. We are not so brazen to think that only the Bereans know the truth. Just as Paul showed to Peter that he was of the truth, so we will accept those who are of the truth all throughout history to the beginning of time. We fellowship the Father and His son and do not allow ourselves to be corrupted by false teachings that are warned against:

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

Mat 24:11 "And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray."

Mat 24:24; Mark 13:22 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Gal 2:4 "But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage"

1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

2 Pet 2 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of" and "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."

If we fellowship err or those of the world, we are "unequally yoked." We are commanded to keep ourselves separate from the world. While we are to spread the truth, we cannot fellowship those not of the truth.

[Dream]

[ARMyers] I admire your intelligence. You seem to have wisdom. Perhaps you can answer these passages. I will quote some verses, but read the whole thing in context if you please.
[Dream]
The only thing is, you are not writing to a good man; so wisdom is not who you are talking to. Your demands for cosmic Scriptural knowledge are unrealistic! I realize this isn't a game, and I appreciate your posts. It is the Bereans that are repeatedly pouring over scripture which is like brain food. My opinion continues to be that your group right now absorbs more light than it puts out, and that if you were dispersed you could do much good. You are making the classic mistake of thinking it is up to you to preserve truth, which is too much to ask of you. It is too much to ask of me as well.
[ARMyers"]
1 Tim 6 "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

[Dream]
Timothy lived during the time when the gospel was being established, when many lambs died to seal its testimony. The lambs were the seed of the church, and many received pure instruction I am sure, by Timothy. Timothy died a long time ago, however, and we are discussing what we would like to think is the same thing that he believed. He is gone along with his personal representatives. I believe Timothy did, indeed, "keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"(6:14) which is where you and I should agree but perhaps do not. Jesus came and is here in the church. I write more about this further down. When Jesus says "Behold I am coming quickly" in Revelation, he refers to the establishment of his church, 'Which is his body'.(Eph 1:23) If he meant his physical return, then you and I have been misreading the word 'Quickly'.
[ARMyers]
1 Cor 5 "But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person" and "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened." This applies specifically to a sexually immoral man and generally to any that "be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." In this way he may realize the error of his ways and return to the faith.
[Dream]
Fellow Christians don't come into this unless you feel they are wicked. The reason that leaven is figuratively used as a bad thing is that you may not have any during passover, because leavened bread does not travel well. Leaven is anything that hinders the progress out of spiritual Egypt, so there can be more than one thing that is called 'Leaven'.
There are multiple uses of the word leaven in NT, so lets specify which leaven when talking about leaven. Paul describes the leaven in his sentence as 'malice' and 'wickedness', not as mere 'erroneous teachings'. In fact, an idolator is not someone who merely disagrees about teachings. The 'leaven of the Pharisees' was coined, because some were putting traditions above Law. Some were also claiming godlike authority over followers. Hence, their teachings were idolatrous, and that leaven was an idolatrous leaven which hindered spiritual pilgrims. Contrarily, Jesus said to call 'No one Master or Father'. Of course what Jesus said requires intelligent interpretation on the part of the individual! For example: young Timothy had masters but not 'A Master'. He had masters, yet he upheld the Law no matter what anyone said about traditions. Even if he had himself made mistakes in keeping the Law -- that would not have been idolatry. Idolatry is being under some authority that is not God. It is one of various kinds of bad leaven, and the other bad leaven is malice & wickedness.
[ARMyers]
1 Cor 10 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."
2 Cor 6 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" and "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" In case you do not know, Belial is of the tribe of Benjamin of Israel (part of the nation of God) that forsook the Lord and raped and killed a concubine which caused all of Israel to almost destroy all of the tribe of Benjamin. "Infidel" means unbeliever. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."
[Dream]
Again, this scripture is about evil people, not people with honest disagreements about teachings. Belial is the same thing as the generation lost in the wilderness that were 'stiff-necked.' I think Jesus' paraphrase for stiff-necked is 'hard-hearted'. They were mean, cold, grouchy, cruel, selfish and generally very negative. Another equivalent name is Nabal. The sons of Belial were hard of heart and idolatrous. Fully leavened. Not so with your fellow Christians. Surely if anyone can help them it is someone like you that is full of scripture and love? As it is written "a bruised reedhe will not break, and a dimly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice." (Isaiah 42:3) Well, how is it that you cannot afford to 'bend' your fellowship for these bruised reeds?
About the table of the Lord. We know Jesus said in Revelation "Behold I am coming quickly." I personally think the 'Son of Man' is the body of believers. That body has the ability to forgive certain kinds of sins and also to restore almost any penitant, if not every one. Matthew 10:23 says the Son of Man is coming, Paul said to Timothy to keep a commandment until the appearing "of our Lord Jesus Christ." We know of promises of Jesus' return. Of course, partaking of the bread and wine is 'being' part of the finished work of Jesus, the complete finished work of creation.
"It is finished!" Remember that? Remember also that Protestants for centuries have struggled with timelines when events in Revelation will take place, but the answer to that is 'Now' and has been 'Now' from the beginning. I am not saying the gospel is unsealed, because it is eternally sealed in blood. I am saying all of your attempts to make Revelation look like it was meant to be a map of history -- those are empty.
[quote="ARMyers"]
Eph 5 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" and "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."
[Dream]
These are not about church beliefs but about character, which really is not my strong suit. All of Ephesians 5:1 is doable, but only with lots of help and dedication. It is a tall order, and I can see the standard that is bursting through the roof. Where are such people to be found? You have never met them, although "He that is forgiven much loves much." I have never known anyone that could possibly match the standards of Ephesians 5, except perhaps that with an active healthy congregation it is theoretically possible for such people to exist for short periods of time from a human perspective. Fortunately Christ is independent of time, a finished creation.
Ephesians 4:20 always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father.
Ephesians 4:21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.
[ARMyers]
1 John 1 "If we say that we have fellowship with him [Yahweh], and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." In other words, the light is truth and we must walk in truth and fellowship all of the light and none in darkness. Our position is to try to bring those in darkness into the light of truth.
[Dream]
include: 5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all."
The point seems to be only God alone is ever truthful. We always color the truth with at least some darkness. We must therefore continually confess that we have 'Sinned' (lied) or we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. The context is about true speech. This explains why, for instance it is considered boasting to say "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and get gain"(James4:13) This section of verses in 1 John is about destroying the tendency to make a creed or statement of faith, whether through actions or exclusions. You should not have called me 'Wise' for instance. By virtue of humans attempting to express truth, we shall always be wrong in some way since we are untruthful in our human nature. We cannot be light in the context of this verse. But we can still walk in God's light. This passage says a similar thing to I Cor 8:1-3
　
[ARMansey]
The Trinity theory is not a gnat by the way. It means that they, being of those that believe that Jesus is the Father, believe in another Diety and preach another gospel such as those argued against in Gal 1.
[Dream]
The trinity is a false indicator of idolatry. Instead look for boasts and claims of truth, the fruit of false lips. Only God can actually give the increase, so the danger is not bumbling words but teachers that boast. Almost all of the 'Beware's Jesus speaks are about boastful teachers. Even then, the parable of the Sower teaches a soft heart ensures the success of the seed regardless of birds (false teachers). If the heart is hard nothing can be done no matter what.

[ARMyers]

The only thing is, you are not writing to a good man; so wisdom is not who you are talking to.

You misunderstand me when I say wisdom. I do not mean spiritual wisdom such as that of Solomon and of Christ, but of wordly wisdom such as that of the people of Tyre and of Judas. You seem to have a good background in philosophy and the doctrine of the Catholics, but know that the wisdom of this world is nothing in the end (1 Cor 1:17-30).

Spiritual wisdom is not synonymous with goodness. Solomon was wise above all men, but he still turned from the Lord and took up the idols of his many wives. Though he was wise, he acted foolishly in this regard. It is also not synonymous with knowledge. Knowledge is simply knowing information and wisdom is being able to see the truth in things and in so doing, acting upon them. You can have all the knowledge in the world and still be a fool (the Pharisees).

Your demands for cosmic Scriptural knowledge are unrealistic!

While it is impossible for us to never sin, the Father sent one who could do all that was in the Law and utterly fulfill the purpose of the Law, that was his son Jesus Christ. The standard was set by the Father and Christ met it and set the bar so to speak. And we who are to be as Christ, must act as Christ in all regards. This includes attaining knowledge and filling ourselves up constantly with the light of the Truth.

I realize this isn't a game, and I appreciate your posts. It is the Bereans that are repeatedly pouring over scripture which is like brain food.

You are neglecting the words to Timothy in your statements. "Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine" (1 Tim 4:13) and "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (1 Tim 4:16) and "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16). Why do we read? Because we are "leaky vessels" and we will lose all knowledge and wisdom rapidly (Heb 2). We must constantly immerse ourselves in scripture to fill our lamps with oil (Mat 25). Do you not know that the Law of Moses was read every year to the people? This is to restate the things forgotten. This is to renew the mind back to the Lord. "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Rom 12:2).

The beginnings of learning the truth are like drinking milk, for those things spiritual of the word is as meat, and those that have minds on worldly things are children drinking this milk (1 Cor 3:1-4, Heb 5:11-14). You cannot eat of the meat as an adult until you sacrifice your worldly childish self.

My opinion continues to be that your group right now absorbs more light than it puts out, and that if you were dispersed you could do much good.

What am I doing but to spread the Truth right now? Am I not spreading the light in your opinion? Do I sit alone, quietly studying? Or am I on this forum, telling every one the Truth of things no matter the insults? Do not be so quick to judge and even more to condemn us. If you profess that we know the Scripture, then why do you not listen to us when we speak?

You are making the classic mistake of thinking it is up to you to preserve truth, which is too much to ask of you. It is too much to ask of me as well.

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain" (1 Cor 15:2).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. " (1 John 2:4-5).

The Father does not ask of it. He commands it. Can we obtain absolute Truth? Not in our present state, but we have to try. If we try our hardest, we have the grace and forgiveness given out of the pure love of the Lord. If we do not try and succumb, we have nothing.

Timothy lived during the time when the gospel was being established, when many lambs died to seal its testimony. The lambs were the seed of the church, and many received pure instruction I am sure, by Timothy. Timothy died a long time ago, however, and we are discussing what we would like to think is the same thing that he believed. He is gone along with his personal representatives.

That is a fallacy. If you only read these epistles as only concerning the audience it was given, then why read any of the letters? The Truth contained in their pages applies today just as it did in Timothy's day. There are those that will corrupt the faith today within the ecclesia just as it was then. Where you have evil, you have corruption.

There is one lamb. That is Jesus Christ. There is one seed. That is Jesus Christ. You misunderstand every epistle if you misunderstand this. If we are chosen at judgment, we become that seed, we become that lamb, we become the multitudinous Christ. For the saints are Jesus Christ just as the angels are Yahweh Elohim in manifestation.

I believe Timothy did, indeed, "keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ

(6:14) which is where you and I should agree but perhaps do not. Jesus came and is here in the church. I write more about this further down. When Jesus says "Behold I am coming quickly" in Revelation, he refers to the establishment of his church, 'Which is his body'.(Eph 1:23) If he meant his physical return, then you and I have been misreading the word 'Quickly'.

That is the Catholic doctrine. If Christ was in the churches of this world, then why are they corrupt? Why do they kill? Why do they graft? Why do they hate? The churches of this world are full of avarice, peddling out salvation as if they owned it in order to create temples to Mammon, that is wealth. They are anti-christs.


He does not refer to the church in that statement. The term quickly is throwing you off. What is time to the Heavens? Two thousand years are as two days. Similar phrases are used throughout Scripture to invoke those doing evil to repentence. Christ will come again soon (to Earth) according to the will of the Father. Ephesians is talking about when he comes again and conquers the nations in agreement with the rest of Scripture. Ephesians 1:18 proves that when he says "inheritance" for no one has the inheritance until after judgment. Never did these mean the church of this world, and what scriptural references do you even have to support that claim?


Unfortunately I must stop writing. I have Bible Study tonight and must leave work. I will address the rest of your comments at a later time. Thanks.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by ARMyers

You misunderstand me when I say wisdom. I do not mean spiritual wisdom such as that of Solomon and of Christ, but of wordly wisdom such as that of the people of Tyre and of Judas. You seem to have a good background in philosophy and the doctrine of the Catholics, but know that the wisdom of this world is nothing in the end (1 Cor 1:17-30).

Let us say 'Solomon and Jesus', since we do not agree upon the meaning of 'Christ'. Let us agree that for many purposes at least Jesus is a man, but let us disagree about some things and not others. Let love cover this multitude of sins.

Wisdom that is of this world is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. The way to show spiritual wisdom is through meekness and good work, but I don't have much of it. Unity is God's work and only God's, as in marriage or as in fellowship. Division between people happens because of sin, because of us. This corresponds to divorce. Exclusion from your meeting similarly corresponds to something: sending away an adulterous spouse in hopes of getting them back reformed. Divorce is not something to take lightly, and exclusion is rarely productive. Should a man send away 'his wife' for just any reason or not? When should he give up on her?

Should he exclude others from fellowship on the basis of disagreement about the trinity? These are the same questions. The temptation is to send your 'wife' away permanently without a divorce (since it is expensive), but that is evil.(Malachi 2, Deut 24) No, you must woo her back and not with leaflets and lawyers but with songs & kisses, an embrace and much more. How much is she worth to you? Take a chance. With spouses I am told sometimes nothing can be done. They can be difficult, so sometimes we just aren't strong enough to do the spiritual thing. Towards us the grace of God must be limitless. A result of that however is that forgiving our brothers is not an option. Them we must forgive 70X7 times, and not cheat or lose our place when counting the number! If we will not do this, then we have said they are not our brothers. If we deny them, we also deny Jesus, etc.

Myers, this is about forgiveness and always has been. Even the Reformation happened merely because same people couldn't forgive some other people. Always, always knowledge puffs us up so that we cannot see clearly.

James 1:26-27 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

2Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by ARMyers

It is amazing that I was chosen by the Lord to do the Lord's work. But I sometimes wonder if I am destined for eternal salvation or eternal damnation. I wonder if I am the good soil sprouting up good fruit or if I am the bad soil that produces vegetation that is choked by weeds. I do not dwell on these things however, I must ever strive forward to correct my actions, spread the Truth, and do good with Love and Faith in my heart. If I can reach just one person (let alone all), I would be content, for the Truth of things is harsh and people much want to believe the lies and stay in their "caves."

You must understand the Truth and believe in the True Father and the True Son in order to be baptized. Otherwise, your baptism is invalid and profits you nothing. It is also a statement to continuously act as a child of the Lord, a son of the Father and a brother of Christ, and a turn away from sins and the affairs of this world.

No need to wonder, friend; there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, and if you are making it your business to serve the Lord then you are indeed in him, and he in you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be wasting your time on spiritual things, and would be doing as the world does.

Baptism is profitable when it means something, and only God the one being baptized can know their heart. As even the most obedient child sometimes makes mistakes, so too are our sins forgiven, which is why we can rest easy and not worry about damnation, so long as our faith is truly in the Lord.

Enough sermonizing, though: I couldn't agree more with your take on the afterlife. This is a topic that appears from time to time in the Christian forum as well, and usually causes quite a heated debate. Though lots of Christians believe in hell, I haven't met any yet who can truly prove its existence based on scripture. It's hard not to believe in hell, though, because the Bible takes on a much different meaning without it.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

I going to second wil here.

My way, is just one way. People all around the world are able to connect with God through a myriad different practices and beliefs. I would say that the common denominators of these paths are compassion and wisdom, but the exact methods vary from religion to religion, person to person.

Somewhat related to the discussion: deep down, doesn't everyone think that their way is the right way? Even people who say there are many ways to understand God-- aren't they saying that anyone who thinks their way is the right way is wrong, and thereby invalidating someone else's path?

Ah, Friday tangents....

[wil]

Originally Posted by Marsh

deep down, doesn't everyone think that their way is the right way?

Ah, Friday tangents....

Not everyone. Why I appreciate my current understandings and don't mind others exploring along with me. I know for a fact as many have told me, my way is not the right way for them. And, deep down, I completely accept that as true.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Marsh

Even people who say there are many ways to understand God-- aren't they saying that anyone who thinks their way is the right way is wrong, and thereby invalidating someone else's path?

I try to take what people say at face value. To do otherwise would be a very worrisome way to live.

I try to speak honestly. Hiding our true meaning invites mistrust and hinders understanding. It is a waste of energy and time.

If I really thought that my way was the "right way" and that everyone else was on a path that led to nowhere, I'd certainly say so.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by ARMyers

Perhaps the greatest indictment against the theory of an immortal soul living on after the death of the body, is the related doctrine of hell. If the soul is immortal, a place must be found for the souls of the disobedient as well as for those of the worthy; and as the Bible reveals that most men are in the former category, and "have no hope" (Eph 2:12), so hell must be the destiny of the majority.

This is true, but now we must establish what hell signifies.

Many churches interpret the term as describing a place of sulphuric flame and everlasting torture (largely taking from Milton, Dante, and pagan writings and beliefs). Certain symbolic passages of the Bible are taken out of their context and given a meaning never intended, and upon this distorted foundation of scripture, there has been built up the terrible doctrine that God consigns to everlasting misery, the souls of bothe the wicked and the ignorant.

Such a "hell" is a figment of the imagination, and an insult to the God of love revealed in the Bible, the Christian world condemns a Hitler for the agony and torture that he instituted in the concentration camps of Germany, and yet teaches that God permits something even much worse and permanent in hell.

A consideration of the evidence, however, will show that the doctrine is false. False it must be, of course, if the soul of a man is mortal as I will later post; for the two doctrines stand or fall together.

The word "hell" comes from an Anglo-Saxon root signifying "to cover." It finds its place in such words as "helmet" which signifies a covering for the head. The "place of covering" referred to as "hell" in most places where it is used in the Bible, is the grave.

The word "hell" has been used as a translation for the Hebrew word, Sheol in the Old Testament, and the Greek word, Hades in the New Testament. But these words have also been rendered "grave" as in Genesis 42:38, Psalms 30:3, and the following places:

"O grave (sheol) I will be thy destruction" (Hosea 13:14)
"O death, where is thy sting? O grave (hades) where is thy victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:55)

To be consistent, Sheol and Hades should have been uniformly translated "grave" throughout the Bible.

The hell of the Bible, therefore, is the grave. The Psalmist declared:

"Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol)" (Psalm 16:10)
"God shall redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol)" (Psalm 49:14-15)

Of Jonah it is recorded that he cried "out of the belly of hell (sheol)." The "hell" was the belly of the fish (Jonah 2:1-2), a place of covering which was to him a grave, but certainly not the "hell" of popular theology.

Peter used the term to teach the doctrine of the resurrection declaring concerning Christ: "His soul was not left in hell (hades)" (Acts 2:31). It is obvious that Jesus never went to the place of torture, to which many churches refer to "hell," but that he did go to a place of covering, into the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. This was "hell" of Peter's discourse, from whence Christ rose after three days' burial.

Another word rendered "hell" in the New Testament is Gehenna. Gehenna was a valley ouside the walls of Jerusalem (still called by this name) in which burned a fire that was fed by the refuse of the city. Anything worthless, and to be completely destroyed was consigned into Gehenna. The term thus became synonymous with the ideas of rejection, dishonor, judgment, and utter destruction.

The Lord used the term in that way to describe the fate of the wicked.

Annihilation is a far more merciful end than the terrible fate of suffering eternal torment in a hell of sulphuric flame, presided over by a diabolic genius of torture, such as some have conjured up! The idea is completely foreign to the teaching of the Bible, and to the character of the God of love and mercy revealed therein.

The Bible sets forth death as the punishment for sin (Romans 5:12), and such passages as Mark 9:43 (where the word Gehenna appears) are properly interpreted as highly descriptive and figurative expressions representing the disgrace and total extinction that awaits the sinner at Christ's return (Psalm 37:10, 20, 36; 2 Thess 1:9-10, Prov 24:20, Job 21:30).

Perhaps this is best illustrated by considering one use of this word, Gehenna.

It occurs, as we have stated, in Mark 9:43, and is there rendered "into hell (Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched."

This continuously burning fire in Gehenna was the Jerusalem rubbish destructor that was always kept burning to consume the rubbish of the city, including the bodies of criminals.

That was clearly obvious to the people of Christ's day, though it may not be so to us today. However, a litte research into scripture will prove our point.

The Lord continued on from his reference to Gehenna, or hell, by stating:

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is no quenched." (v. 46)

In doing so, he was quoting from Isaiah 66:24, which speaks of a form of instruction that will be set up in the Promised Land, in the future age, when Christ will reign on earth. The prophet declares:

"They (worshippers) shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh."

If these worshippers are able to go forth and view the results of judgment and punishment, the place where the "worm shall not die," is certainly not the "hell" of current theology, but merely the grave or sepulchre of wicked men. Ezekiel 39:11, 15, 16 speaks of a great mauseleum being set up in the Holy Land, to commemorate the overthrow of those who will come up against Jerusalem to battle at the end of time. This could well be the place referred to literally in Isaiah 66:46 and figuratively in Mark 9:43.

One fact emerges, that the "hell" of the Bible is the grave.

Thank you.

Hi Armyers

I think what could have happened there is that Jesus [pbuh] or the original Bible mentioned that the grave is a pit of the hell for the people who are to go to hell, and some people have misunderstood from that to mean that the grave is the hell

In the last and final revelations from God, the Holy Quran, and the Sunnah, we find that indeed the grave is iether a meadow of the garden of Paradise or a pit from the fire of hell, in which there will litterally be peace and comfort or chastisement depending on what it's inhabitant deserves:

80. We believe in the punishment in the grave for those who deserve it, and in the questioning in the grave by Munkar and Nakir about one's Lord, one's religion and one's prophet, as has come down in the hadiths from the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and in reports from the Companions, may Allah be pleased with them all.

81. The grave is either one of the meadows of the Garden or one of the pits of the Fire.

Tahawi Beliefs of Ahl al-Sunna

but this is not the end all of the hell, for after the grave phase, there will come the day of judgement [in the grave, a person is 'preliminarily' judged and gets his just deserts accordingly] and then will come the 'daddy' of Hell for the damned.

[shawn]

I can see that those who entertain the notion of hell are one of the following:
- individuals who want some vengeance;
- masochists.
It is really quite a stupid belief (an eternal hell, that is) and if one considers the scriptures with any critical thinking they would see that such a notion does not harmonize with what is said about God.

But, if it keeps the idiots in line........

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by shawn

I can see that those who entertain the notion of hell are one of the following:
- individuals who want some vengeance;
- masochists.
It is really quite a stupid belief (an eternal hell, that is) and if one considers the scriptures with any critical thinking they would see that such a notion does not harmonize with what is said about God.

But, if it keeps the idiots in line........

If it weren't for God confirming it in the Quran, I probably would have thought that for God to burn in hell a person for all eternity [and not only that, but a hell thats fire is 69 times hotter than earth fire ] does seem to go against His attributes of the Loving and most mercifull, but since the Quran has been verified to be the truth from God, then all I could do here really is accept what God teaches us - for he knows and We dont - and try to make sense of [try to understand the wisdom of ] how this is just; so here goes:

all humans have been created with an innate nature that is inclined towards recognising the oneness of God, thus when they turn into poly's or idolaty's [my made up word; sounds a bit better than idolator no? ] they contradict/bellie/agravate their innate nature in a big way; I'm sure we all know what a 'guilty conscience' is and sometime or another have felt it ourselves..., and when we go against our innate nature in such a big way, we should feel the same guilt but in a much bigger way; children may not be able to resist the indoctrination of their parents when their little, but when their adults, their intellect and innate nature should indicate to them the Oneness of God Almighty, hence being a poly is just unacceptable to Allah

now if one wants to make the argument that the innate nature and mans intellect and the signs of Gods Unity embedded in the uinverse is not enough for Him to figure this out for sure without divine revelation, then that may be so, hence now lets consider the group of people who [and i'll let shaykh nuh take it from here]:


consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with His message, and to whom He has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this, persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with His prerogative to be worshipped as He directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Qur'an 4:48).

Universal Validity of Religions

now lets analyse the view that one can only sin so much so his punishment has to end one day; this is infact true for believers, so lets examine why it dont apply to non-believers

first and foremost, his sin is absolutely 'deadly'; the most gravest sin ever and if we consider that every human knows that death could come any second, thus he really cannot escape the 'clutches' of his Maker [the athiests know this in their subconcience and they bring it to the forefront of their consceince when their life is in danger!! ], then this makes his denial of his lord all the more serious, and in this context, what shaykh nuh said above that he himself ahs accepted to go to hell, becomes more understandable...

Now regarding a sinfull believer, there is some good in him no matter what he does, for underneath all his sins, there will be the good deeds, hence his sins can burn off in hell and then will remain only the good... but for the non-believer, what good has he got?; he only has relative good, for example, a humanatarian non-believer is better than a serial killer etc, and feeding the poor is better than being a miser etc, but when these acts are done while associating a partner to God, then they are tainted, for a good act in the sight of God is when it is done for God alone

Thus, his sins can never burn off to an extent where there is some good in him, for there is nothing but shirk [associating partners to Allah] in him, thus how should his punishment end?

But in In either case, Allah's mercy exists

now how do we conciliate the justice of God with His Mercy?

Simple, we just look at the vast mercy of God which the following hadith gives us a glimpse of:

On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:

Allah the Almighty has said: "O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its." [Al-Tirmithi]

Aslo, we have it in the hadith? that if a person intends to commit a sin, but then does not do it, a good act is recorded for him, but if he does the sin, then he gets the sin of having done it one time, but if a person intends a good act, then he gets the reward as if he's done that good act allready and if he actually does it, then he gets the reward of having done it ten times over [or something like that], and it is said that on the Day of Judgement, if a persons sins and good deeds are level [i.e, he has done the same number of good deeds as he has commited sins, then Allah's Mercy will prevail over His wrath and Allah will forgive that person and send him to paradise

May Allah [swt] save all from this horrendous punishment. ameen