Herem (Devotion to Destruction)

[mattityahu]

Could someone unpack the concept of herem (devotion to destruction) found in Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua? Was it something that was literally carried out, with the slaughtering of Canaanite women and children, or is it meant in a more metaphorical sense of "giving everything to Yahweh", or both?

Many thanks,
Matt

[Avi]

Originally Posted by mattityahu

Could someone unpack the concept of herem (devotion to destruction) found in Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua? Was it something that was literally carried out, with the slaughtering of Canaanite women and children, or is it meant in a more metaphorical sense of "giving everything to Yahweh", or both?

Many thanks,
Matt

Hi Matt and Welcome !

You might prefer interpretation from one of the OJ posters, but if you are interested in a Reform perspective I would be glad to take a shot with some interpretation from my JPS. If so, can you give me a few verse and lines numbers from those books to start with (it will save me a little time in my research) ?

[mattityahu]

Hi Avi, thanks! I'd love to hear interpretation from Tanach readers of all sorts.

The main passages I've across that mention it are Numbers 21:1-3 Deut 7:1-5; 20:16-20 and as a theme in Joshua 2-11, though are probably a number I've missed.

[bananabrain]

matt,

i think it very much depends on the context. there are a number of concepts operative in this area, none of which actually have much bearing on the modern religious concept of a "herem", which is far closer to what is understood by the term "excommunication". in the context of the biblical passages mentioned, there are three distinct situations (at least) mentioned, which include:

1. a "milhemet mitzvah" (obligatory war), namely fulfilling the Divine command to conquer canaan in the first place
2. a defensive war
3. the commandment to obliterate the "seven nations" of canaan, namely the hittites, amorites, jebusites, girga****es, ammonites , perizzites and hivites, or, according to some, also including the amalekites.

the situation in numbers is sort of all three, whereas the two deuteronomy passages and the one from joshua only cover 1 & 3. a milhemet mitzvah can only be declared under extremely stringent conditions and it is hard to see how there could be a case for it nowadays, partly because it relies on number 3, namely the obliteration of idolatry. all the commandments relating to the "seven nations" were declared obsolete by the sages in the mishnah; they declare that when the assyrian king sennacherib (sanheriv) conquered the northern kingdom, he "mixed up all the nations", so you were no longer able to tell if anyone is a 7-nationer, so the mitzvah could not be observed. therefore, all the blood-and-guts stuff about them in the Torah can be pretty much ignored other than in terms of what it tells us about the sort of stuff G!D doesn't like.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Avi]

Originally Posted by mattityahu

The main passages I've across that mention it are Numbers 21:1-3 Deut 7:1-5; 20:16-20 and as a theme in Joshua 2-11

Matt, l usually use my JPS (Jewish Publication Society), Jewish Study Bible. It gives alternative interpretations, such as the one in this portion. It includes less literal interpretations which I very much appreciate, especially for violent portions, like this one.

Lets take a look at the Deuteronomy portions first:

7.1-10.11 Risks to covenental faith upon entering the land. The first issue is that Israel enters an already inhabited land, whose greater population and worship apparatus it must confront (Ch. 7). Thereafter, successful habitation carries its own risks: complacency and loss of historical memory (Ch. 8).

7.1-26: The war of conquest. Two topics are treated: (1)the command to destroy the original occupants of Canaan (vv.1-3, 6, 17-24); and (2) the command not to worship their gods (vv. 4-5, 7-15, 25-26). The editors join the two themes at v.16
2:This requirement for destruction is anomalous in several ways. Earlier sources contemplate only the expulsion of these groups (Exod. 23.27-33, cf. 34.11). The definition and requirements of the "ban" vary considerably throughout the Bible: total destruction of the people and property (here; 13.15-17; 20.16-17; 1 Sam 15.3); sparing of property (2.34-35; 3.6-7); sparing of women, children, and property (20.10-14).

Finally, other narratives, which seem far more realistic, speak of the failure to carry out the conquest except in very limited areas and the use of conquered populations for labor (Josh. chs. 15-17; Judg. ch1; 3.1-6) These factors suggest that the law of the ban is an anachronistic literary formulation. It first arose centuries after the settlement; it was never implemented because there was no population extant against whom it could be implemented. Its polemic is directed at internal issues in 6th century Judah......

I will complete v.7.2 shortly. There are more interesting observations about editing issues with respect to intermarriage.

By the way, BB, I also like your more "modern interpretation", as well.

Matt, just out of curiousity, where are your thoughts headed on this issue ?

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Avi

By the way, BB, I also like your more "modern interpretation", as well.

well, when confronting problematic passages (as these undoubtedly are) with a modern eye, it is as well to know how they are interpreted officially, whether one agrees with this or not. obviously, modern people (other than loony right-wing settlers) are not keen to endorse anything that looks like genocide, ethnic cleansing or lack of religious toleration, so from my PoV it is important to show how that PoV is not exclusively "modern" (as in post-enlightenment), but was enshrined in the Law by haza"l long before anyone in europe decided that perhaps killing everyone who disagreed with you was not quite what nice people did. more to the point, it is also important to show precisely how interpretations should be limited and why "exterminate the seven nations" is the most important example. obviously, biblical scholars will take a different view, but it is not up to me to tell anyone who they ought to trust.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[pohaikawahine]

note to file - just passing through and will return .... "seven nations" .... you know my fascination with any concepts related to the number seven .... aloha nui, poh